here in MA we can register a SUV as either a car or a truck, I wonder if our laws are different for each.
CA issues with 6" lift :hillbilly:
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SoCal FZJ80
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Its because the cruiser is titled in CA as a wagon and not a truck... kind of an unfare comparison to be lumped in with front wheel drive unibody cars. The same goes for many other SUV's as well. When I lived in AZ my friend had a problem with this concerning his suburban. He made sliders that folded down for driving, and locked up when going offroad.
My neighbor is a CHP vehicle inspector, and together we discussed this thread at length because it has implications for all of us (thanks N -). He drives around in a white van with a secretary’s desk and book shelf in the back, stocked with thick volumes containing every nuance of the Vehicle Code, and even some of DMV’s quietly held little secrets. He can cite the regs by number in his sleep.
His overall observation, to wit (I paraphrase): The vehicle code is poorly written, ambiguous, and open to intrepretation (duh...). One vehicle inspector’s (CHP officer, judge, et.al.) intrepretation differs from another, a fact that makes getting even valid citations to stick sometimes difficult.
However... this is how he reads this one: Mike - and other Californians - look at your Cruiser title: If it says “Commercial” just above the VIN number, it’s a “Truck” for the purposes of intrepretation under CVC Div 12 Chap 1 Sec 24008.5. If it says “Automobile,” it’s a passenger vehicle under this regulation. The only exception to the latter is “House Car.”
The fact that Cruisers are sub-classified as wagons - “Station Wagons” to be specific - and that they are defined under vehicle code Div 1 Sec 585, as
“...a dual purpose vehicle designed for the transportation of persons and also designed in such a manner that the seats may be removed or folded out of the way for the purpose of increasing the property carrying space within the vehicle. The term includes, but is not limited to, types of vehicles which carry the trade names of station wagon, estate wagon, town and country wagon, and country sedan”,
does not change that fact that the title still classifies them as an “Automobile” for the purpose of the frame height reg.
House Car.
Div 1 Sec 362. A "house car" is a motor vehicle originally designed, or permanently altered, and equipped for human habitation, or to which a camper has been permanently attached." (My emphasis.)
For many years, my ride was a cargo van that was built up for expeditioning (4x4 [Dana gear], suspension lift, body lift, 35’s [at times], ad infinitum...). It was empty inside with the exception of a small wardrobe, a fridge, and a not-so-portable appearing Porta-Potti. What would otherwise have been titled as a non-commercial vehicle, was now an “Automobile” House Car. I went round and round with the DMV on this initially, and when I returned from several years residence in Oregon and reregistered in CA, went through it all again. The toilet was the swing vote each time. It was a House Car, and exempt as an Automobile under the frame height reg.
If you put "Gucci" curtains, a fridge and a toilet in the Cruiser, find a cooperative DMV inspector, and get it retitled as a House Car, you would be off the hook for the future. (Alternatively, remove the 2nd and 3rd row seats, retitle as a commercial delivery vehicle: Now it’s a Truck.) In Mike’s case for the present, it was not a House Car (or Truck) when cited, so I think he is going to get stung. IMHO of course.
There are large water drilling rigs, and even a ten-axle crane up here that are titled as Automobiles under some obscure, stretched intrepretation of an ambiguous regulation in the Vehicle Code. Thanks to an inspector in a rural county who’s intrepretation fit the environs where he (and they) made their livings. This goes back to the original observation at the top of ambiguity in the Code.
This frame height issue for Cruisers (wagons, anyway...) can be beat, but not retroactively IMO. I would imagine there is case law that would dispute some, or all that I have said, but this is just my take on this. Looking for a permanent solution here so we can get back to 37’s legally...
Cheers, R -
His overall observation, to wit (I paraphrase): The vehicle code is poorly written, ambiguous, and open to intrepretation (duh...). One vehicle inspector’s (CHP officer, judge, et.al.) intrepretation differs from another, a fact that makes getting even valid citations to stick sometimes difficult.
However... this is how he reads this one: Mike - and other Californians - look at your Cruiser title: If it says “Commercial” just above the VIN number, it’s a “Truck” for the purposes of intrepretation under CVC Div 12 Chap 1 Sec 24008.5. If it says “Automobile,” it’s a passenger vehicle under this regulation. The only exception to the latter is “House Car.”
The fact that Cruisers are sub-classified as wagons - “Station Wagons” to be specific - and that they are defined under vehicle code Div 1 Sec 585, as
“...a dual purpose vehicle designed for the transportation of persons and also designed in such a manner that the seats may be removed or folded out of the way for the purpose of increasing the property carrying space within the vehicle. The term includes, but is not limited to, types of vehicles which carry the trade names of station wagon, estate wagon, town and country wagon, and country sedan”,
does not change that fact that the title still classifies them as an “Automobile” for the purpose of the frame height reg.
House Car.
Div 1 Sec 362. A "house car" is a motor vehicle originally designed, or permanently altered, and equipped for human habitation, or to which a camper has been permanently attached." (My emphasis.)
For many years, my ride was a cargo van that was built up for expeditioning (4x4 [Dana gear], suspension lift, body lift, 35’s [at times], ad infinitum...). It was empty inside with the exception of a small wardrobe, a fridge, and a not-so-portable appearing Porta-Potti. What would otherwise have been titled as a non-commercial vehicle, was now an “Automobile” House Car. I went round and round with the DMV on this initially, and when I returned from several years residence in Oregon and reregistered in CA, went through it all again. The toilet was the swing vote each time. It was a House Car, and exempt as an Automobile under the frame height reg.
If you put "Gucci" curtains, a fridge and a toilet in the Cruiser, find a cooperative DMV inspector, and get it retitled as a House Car, you would be off the hook for the future. (Alternatively, remove the 2nd and 3rd row seats, retitle as a commercial delivery vehicle: Now it’s a Truck.) In Mike’s case for the present, it was not a House Car (or Truck) when cited, so I think he is going to get stung. IMHO of course.
There are large water drilling rigs, and even a ten-axle crane up here that are titled as Automobiles under some obscure, stretched intrepretation of an ambiguous regulation in the Vehicle Code. Thanks to an inspector in a rural county who’s intrepretation fit the environs where he (and they) made their livings. This goes back to the original observation at the top of ambiguity in the Code.
This frame height issue for Cruisers (wagons, anyway...) can be beat, but not retroactively IMO. I would imagine there is case law that would dispute some, or all that I have said, but this is just my take on this. Looking for a permanent solution here so we can get back to 37’s legally...
Cheers, R -
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My title says Automobile. I don't really care as I am not going to lift it much if at all and I am in Mexico with it, possibly it will stay here forever.
That's what happens when you get in a hurry. You may want to try citing the 34710 definition of a passenger that exempts 4wd trucks. It is very likely the "judge" you get will accept that as the definition and the officer while familiar with many sections of the CVC will probably not know the nusances. Traffic Court Judges (most of which are attorneys sitting for the day like a partner in our office does) tend to want to do one thing, get the case the hell out of there.
If you give the cites with the actual statute, the judge may just rule in your favor because it is the easiest thing to do. Some will rule in your favor just for doing all the work and they like seeing a different arguement than "it wasn't my car that was going 80, the officer saw wrong." Also, if the officer is really a prick, the judge may know him and that will bias the judge to rule in your favor.
If you give the cites with the actual statute, the judge may just rule in your favor because it is the easiest thing to do. Some will rule in your favor just for doing all the work and they like seeing a different arguement than "it wasn't my car that was going 80, the officer saw wrong." Also, if the officer is really a prick, the judge may know him and that will bias the judge to rule in your favor.
It would cost more to reg and maybe insure but you could change the designation to commercial by saying you are using it for deliveries, just as people will put on camper shells and change away from commercial with their trucks. The housecar designation will raise your insurance dramatically. You will see many vans with either commercial or automobile plates.
There is some great info provided above.
So, what is this worth to you? What is your time worth? Don't forget the possability that if you request a court date the officer may not show up. You win by default. If he does show up follow the recommendations given above.
I recieved a ticket for going 105 in a 45 (PCH huntington Beach). My attourney told me I was screwed and to go in in a suit and grovel. I showed up in a suit, the only one dressed well in the court. The judge choked when he read my case. I grovelled very respectfully. He told me I was a fool but appreciated that I showed respect and some form of accepting responsibility. He cut the fine drastically and reduced the ticket basically to a fix it ticket.
If it is not a points issue I would fix it, pay up and get out. The other option would be to trade trucks with me.....
So, what is this worth to you? What is your time worth? Don't forget the possability that if you request a court date the officer may not show up. You win by default. If he does show up follow the recommendations given above.
I recieved a ticket for going 105 in a 45 (PCH huntington Beach). My attourney told me I was screwed and to go in in a suit and grovel. I showed up in a suit, the only one dressed well in the court. The judge choked when he read my case. I grovelled very respectfully. He told me I was a fool but appreciated that I showed respect and some form of accepting responsibility. He cut the fine drastically and reduced the ticket basically to a fix it ticket.
If it is not a points issue I would fix it, pay up and get out. The other option would be to trade trucks with me.....
The section also states that the measurement must be taken on "Level Surface" you can question the officer if he used a "calibrated level" prior to making any measurements to determine if the ground on which you were parked on when he made the measurements was level.
If not, then you can argue that there may have been a dip in the ground between the front and rear axle where the officer made the measurement.
If not, then you can argue that there may have been a dip in the ground between the front and rear axle where the officer made the measurement.
patpend may be on to something. You need a controlled environment for testing.
Couldn't you also deflate the tires and effectively "lower" the truck
I'm curious how this pans out. There has been a huge crackdown on modified vehicles ever since that stupid FastnFurious III movie came out.
If you think you guys have it rough.... there are tons of domestic/import performance cars getting tickets for modified exhaust and anything under the hood that doesn't carry a CARB EO sticker. Also if your car is lowered you can get a ticket. Lastly if anything on the underside of your car is lower than the bottom of the lip of your rim... you can get a ticket. CA enforcement of these rules is getting ridiculous.
Couldn't you also deflate the tires and effectively "lower" the truck
I'm curious how this pans out. There has been a huge crackdown on modified vehicles ever since that stupid FastnFurious III movie came out.
If you think you guys have it rough.... there are tons of domestic/import performance cars getting tickets for modified exhaust and anything under the hood that doesn't carry a CARB EO sticker. Also if your car is lowered you can get a ticket. Lastly if anything on the underside of your car is lower than the bottom of the lip of your rim... you can get a ticket. CA enforcement of these rules is getting ridiculous.
cary said:
Looking under the truck with mirrors to try to find something else to write him up on. I think we can take the 'if' out othat sentence.
Fly Rod said:There is some great info provided above.
So, what is this worth to you? What is your time worth? Don't forget the possability that if you request a court date the officer may not show up. You win by default. If he does show up follow the recommendations given above.
I recieved a ticket for going 105 in a 45 (PCH huntington Beach). My attourney told me I was screwed and to go in in a suit and grovel. I showed up in a suit, the only one dressed well in the court. The judge choked when he read my case. I grovelled very respectfully. He told me I was a fool but appreciated that I showed respect and some form of accepting responsibility. He cut the fine drastically and reduced the ticket basically to a fix it ticket.
If it is not a points issue I would fix it, pay up and get out. The other option would be to trade trucks with me.....
True dat! Dad was a CHP Officer and his advice to wear a suit, don't speak out of turn, while staying super polite, payed off in spades. I was able to get out of a lot of tickets as a teenager by showing up in court in a suit and tie on 100+ degree days with everyone else in the courtroom presenting their cases while sporting t-shirts, shorts, and flip flops.
Respect The Man and give him his props. Judges hate people who roll into their house and show no respect. Treat them right and you'd be amazed at how well they'll treat you.
alia176
SILVER Star
Mike,
What is the reasoning for going to lower springs and stock tires? The cop already has your measurement and the judge isn't going to go to the parking lot and make him measure it again.
Just curious!
What is the reasoning for going to lower springs and stock tires? The cop already has your measurement and the judge isn't going to go to the parking lot and make him measure it again.
Just curious!
alia176 said:
It's been a long time since I've gotten one of these, but we call them "fix it tickets." You have to pay a fine, AND you have to show that you brought your vehilce back into compliance.
I'm betting that's what he's got to do.
