I remember years ago, cops used to crack down on height's (too high and too low). It's been years since I've heard anyone getting busted. Man, that sucks. Hopefully you can swing the 27" limit.
CA issues with 6" lift :hillbilly:
- Thread starter clownmidget
- Start date
This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate
links, including eBay, Amazon, Skimlinks, and others.
Mike you have me a little worried now...I whipped out the tape measure and I'm sad to say I'm definitley not 23".....Mike where were you when you got pulled ? I need to stay the hell away from there and try and get something that shows I qualify GVWR 4500+ so the 30" applies any thoughts to get something like that just to have in the glove box?
Best of luck with court mike, I have a set of 33's you could use if you like.
AMMO, I bet you're smiling in HI, unless of course Ian takes you up on the offer to drive the beast around town for you,
Seriously though why do they pick on these things and tint, etc. worry about guy who was blowing black fumes from his pipes going down the road.
Best of luck with court mike, I have a set of 33's you could use if you like.
AMMO, I bet you're smiling in HI, unless of course Ian takes you up on the offer to drive the beast around town for you,
Seriously though why do they pick on these things and tint, etc. worry about guy who was blowing black fumes from his pipes going down the road.
NorCalDoug
problems solved daily...
although swapping out tires might initially seem like a good idea...I'd bet it's been tried before.
the stance of my argument, in court, would be the GVWR. based on the fact that the cruiser falls into the 4501 to 7000 range, I'd think that you're clearly within the limits.
the only reason I'd swap out tires and/or suspension would be to ensure that I would not get ticketed again before the court date.
that aside...I think it blows that you got ticketed for that.
the stance of my argument, in court, would be the GVWR. based on the fact that the cruiser falls into the 4501 to 7000 range, I'd think that you're clearly within the limits.
the only reason I'd swap out tires and/or suspension would be to ensure that I would not get ticketed again before the court date.
that aside...I think it blows that you got ticketed for that.
NorCalDoug said:
However swaping out tires would mean he now complies with the law. Is it like a fix it ticket or is it a fine for violation?
The ticket should have the code that you violated on it. Is "VC 24008.5" written anywhere on the ticket?
Sounds like it's time to revive the old Airbag threads....
Here's a link to all the leagal stuff for CA Vehicle Code incase you want to look up the GVWR really hope you can get it dismissed.
http://www.dmv.ca.gov/pubs/vctop/vc/vctoc.htm
http://www.dmv.ca.gov/pubs/vctop/vc/vctoc.htm
I think you should make arrangments to borrow LX_TREM's rig for the day and swap plates, really screw with them. 
Seriously, it is the weekend, I don't normally play lawyer on the weekend, but play one in real life, so I am to lazy to double check your citation. Here are my suggestions, assuming it is not a fix it ticket.
1) Your first hearing will be an arraignment hearing (unless Riverside county is different from others), so you will enter a not-guilty plea and get a court date assigned.
2) You are in the fun situation where you don't have to dispute the facts with the officer, you get to use them against him. When the day of the hearing comes, let the officer testify how he pulled you over, why, how he measured the truck etc.. Don't argue with him (the judge will not listen to you, the officer never lies), but when he is finished ask if you can ask him a few questions. Ask how he learned where to measure the truck, how he is sure the measurement is correct, how many trucks he has measured. Basically what you are doing it getting him to explain how he is an expert and knows exactly what he is doing and absolutely measured it correctly.
3) After you have done this tell the judge that you would like them take "judicial notice" of CVC 24008.5(b)(2) which reads in relevant part (state the inch requirement for GVRW of 4500-7000), then ask the judge if you can provide a copy to the court for their reference (bring 3 copies, one for you, one for the judge, one for the officer). Do not approach the judge until he/she says okay.
4) Then tell the judge that you would like to enter two items into evidence, the first a clear large picture of your door jam sticker showing the GVWR, and a copy of the page of the owners manual showing the same thing. Explain that your vehicle according to the Federally mandiated door jam sticker has a GVWR of xxxx, which places you within (b)(2). Go on to state, the officer has clearly stated how carefully he measured the vehicle, that he is well qualified to do so, and you comply with the law. Try not to laugh as he s***s in his pants.
Seriously, it is the weekend, I don't normally play lawyer on the weekend, but play one in real life, so I am to lazy to double check your citation. Here are my suggestions, assuming it is not a fix it ticket.
1) Your first hearing will be an arraignment hearing (unless Riverside county is different from others), so you will enter a not-guilty plea and get a court date assigned.
2) You are in the fun situation where you don't have to dispute the facts with the officer, you get to use them against him. When the day of the hearing comes, let the officer testify how he pulled you over, why, how he measured the truck etc.. Don't argue with him (the judge will not listen to you, the officer never lies), but when he is finished ask if you can ask him a few questions. Ask how he learned where to measure the truck, how he is sure the measurement is correct, how many trucks he has measured. Basically what you are doing it getting him to explain how he is an expert and knows exactly what he is doing and absolutely measured it correctly.
3) After you have done this tell the judge that you would like them take "judicial notice" of CVC 24008.5(b)(2) which reads in relevant part (state the inch requirement for GVRW of 4500-7000), then ask the judge if you can provide a copy to the court for their reference (bring 3 copies, one for you, one for the judge, one for the officer). Do not approach the judge until he/she says okay.
4) Then tell the judge that you would like to enter two items into evidence, the first a clear large picture of your door jam sticker showing the GVWR, and a copy of the page of the owners manual showing the same thing. Explain that your vehicle according to the Federally mandiated door jam sticker has a GVWR of xxxx, which places you within (b)(2). Go on to state, the officer has clearly stated how carefully he measured the vehicle, that he is well qualified to do so, and you comply with the law. Try not to laugh as he s***s in his pants.
cary said:I think you should make arrangments to borrow LX_TREM's rig for the day and swap plates, really screw with them.
Seriously, it is the weekend, I don't normally play lawyer on the weekend, but play one in real life, so I am to lazy to double check your citation. Here are my suggestions, assuming it is not a fix it ticket.
1) Your first hearing will be an arraignment hearing (unless Riverside county is different from others), so you will enter a not-guilty plea and get a court date assigned.
2) You are in the fun situation where you don't have to dispute the facts with the officer, you get to use them against him. When the day of the hearing comes, let the officer testify how he pulled you over, why, how he measured the truck etc.. Don't argue with him (the judge will not listen to you, the officer never lies), but when he is finished ask if you can ask him a few questions. Ask how he learned where to measure the truck, how he is sure the measurement is correct, how many trucks he has measured. Basically what you are doing it getting him to explain how he is an expert and knows exactly what he is doing and absolutely measured it correctly.
3) After you have done this tell the judge that you would like them take "judicial notice" of CVC 24008.5(b)(2) which reads in relevant part (state the inch requirement for GVRW of 4500-7000), then ask the judge if you can provide a copy to the court for their reference (bring 3 copies, one for you, one for the judge, one for the officer). Do not approach the judge until he/she says okay.
4) Then tell the judge that you would like to enter two items into evidence, the first a clear large picture of your door jam sticker showing the GVWR, and a copy of the page of the owners manual showing the same thing. Explain that your vehicle according to the Federally mandiated door jam sticker has a GVWR of xxxx, which places you within (b)(2). Go on to state, the officer has clearly stated how carefully he measured the vehicle, that he is well qualified to do so, and you comply with the law. Try not to laugh as he s***s in his pants.
5) bring a nanny cam along for our viewing pleasure later.
Hey why me 
sorry to hear that Mike (Clownmidget) 
wish i can help but im not in U.S right now.And meanwhile CDan also waiting from me to sacrifice $$$$ for the vodoo's.
P.S: About the AC relocating kit i'll let you know by PM'ing you in 2 or 3 months.
sorry to hear that Mike (Clownmidget) wish i can help but im not in U.S right now.And meanwhile CDan also waiting from me to sacrifice $$$$ for the vodoo's.P.S: About the AC relocating kit i'll let you know by PM'ing you in 2 or 3 months.
The regulation as quoted in post 15 states that the max frame height for a PASSENGER vehicle is 23 inches. The land cruiser is a passenger vehicle. How is gross vehicle weight relevant to a passenger vehicle in this matter?cary said:
Last edited:
from CA VC:
Passenger Vehicle
465. A "passenger vehicle" is any motor vehicle, other than a motortruck, truck tractor, or a bus, as defined in Section 233 , and used or maintained for the transportation of persons. The term "passenger vehicle" shall include a housecar.
Motor Truck
410. A "motor truck" or "motortruck" is a motor vehicle designed, used, or maintained primarily for the transportation of property.
seems like the GVW bit may not fly.
However, they have to measure at the lowest point. If there is any part like a bracket attached directly to the frame, wouldn't that become the lowest point? Easy to weld something on?
interesting: in another section there is an exception for 4WD:
Passenger Vehicle Defined
34710. As used in this division, "passenger vehicle" means any motor vehicle defined in Section 465, except any of the following motor vehicles:
(a) Motorcycles.
(b) Housecars.
(c) Specially constructed vehicles.
(d) Motor vehicles equipped with four-wheel drive.
(e) Motor vehicles constructed on a truck chassis.
(f) Motor vehicles operated for hire, compensation, or profit.
(g) Makes of motor vehicles of a model year manufactured or sold in California in quantities of less than 2,000 units for each such model year.
(h) Motor vehicles designed and constructed by the manufacturer of such vehicles, for off-highway use, as determined by the Department of Motor Vehicles.
Amended Ch. 635, Stats. 1974. Effective January 1, 1975.
Legal question: what happens if the officer says he measured it at over 23" and the vehicle is sitting in the parking lot with obviously less than 23" as the judge can see for himself.... is the ticket automatically dismissed or would the judge go by the officer anyways?
Passenger Vehicle
465. A "passenger vehicle" is any motor vehicle, other than a motortruck, truck tractor, or a bus, as defined in Section 233 , and used or maintained for the transportation of persons. The term "passenger vehicle" shall include a housecar.
Motor Truck
410. A "motor truck" or "motortruck" is a motor vehicle designed, used, or maintained primarily for the transportation of property.
seems like the GVW bit may not fly.
However, they have to measure at the lowest point. If there is any part like a bracket attached directly to the frame, wouldn't that become the lowest point? Easy to weld something on?
interesting: in another section there is an exception for 4WD:
Passenger Vehicle Defined
34710. As used in this division, "passenger vehicle" means any motor vehicle defined in Section 465, except any of the following motor vehicles:
(a) Motorcycles.
(b) Housecars.
(c) Specially constructed vehicles.
(d) Motor vehicles equipped with four-wheel drive.
(e) Motor vehicles constructed on a truck chassis.
(f) Motor vehicles operated for hire, compensation, or profit.
(g) Makes of motor vehicles of a model year manufactured or sold in California in quantities of less than 2,000 units for each such model year.
(h) Motor vehicles designed and constructed by the manufacturer of such vehicles, for off-highway use, as determined by the Department of Motor Vehicles.
Amended Ch. 635, Stats. 1974. Effective January 1, 1975.
Legal question: what happens if the officer says he measured it at over 23" and the vehicle is sitting in the parking lot with obviously less than 23" as the judge can see for himself.... is the ticket automatically dismissed or would the judge go by the officer anyways?
Last edited:
I just measured mine as Wrench's post and I'm 1.5" over the legal limit.
what the heck are you guys measuring?
the lower side of the frame rail behind the cross-member is at 17" on mine. With 285s and about 2.5" lift...
I've got 6" to spare!
Mike's rig is tall but I would think for most folks that's a non-issue...
the lower side of the frame rail behind the cross-member is at 17" on mine. With 285s and about 2.5" lift...
I've got 6" to spare!
Mike's rig is tall but I would think for most folks that's a non-issue...
semlin
curmudgeon
cary that's a great strategy as long as as a cruiser does not fit the definition of a passenger vehicle. the way i read that act, the gvwr based height exception only applies to "all other vehicles" and to "housecars" but not to "passenger vehicles". the question is, what's the california definition of a passenger vehicle?
looking at that linked site provided by stevenash here is what i found
465. A "passenger vehicle" is any motor vehicle, other than a motortruck, truck tractor, or a bus, as defined in Section 233 , and used or maintained for the transportation of persons. The term "passenger vehicle" shall include a housecar.
ok great, so Concrete wants to be one of those other things or a "housecar" which is excepted under the height restriction... the definitions of bus and tractor truck don't help but there is some room in motor truck and housecar.
410. A "motor truck" or "motortruck" is a motor vehicle designed, used, or maintained primarily for the transportation of property.
hmm, maybe, maybe not. we'll come back to that. let's try housecar.
362. A "house car" is a motor vehicle originally designed, or permanently altered, and equipped for human habitation, or to which a camper has been permanently attached. A motor vehicle to which a camper has been temporarily attached is not a house car except that, for the purposes of Division 11 (commencing with Section 21000) and Division 12 (commencing with Section 24000), a motor vehicle equipped with a camper having an axle that is designed to support a portion of the weight of the camper unit shall be considered a three-axle house car regardless of the method of attachment or manner of registration. A house car shall not be deemed to be a motortruck.
hmm, what's a "camper"?
243. A "camper" is a structure designed to be mounted upon a motor vehicle and to provide facilities for human habitation or camping purposes. A camper having one axle shall not be considered a vehicle.
Ok, well if you permanently weld a pop up tent to the roof I think you can call it a housecar. otherwise, let's go back to "motor truck".
breaking it down you need to show either that the vehcile was primariy designed to move property (e.g., not passengers), is primary used to move property not passengers, or is primarily maintained to move property not passengers. That is kind of a weird definition giving you three options like that so maybe in california statute drafting "or" does not mean or, but the best way I see it, you can succeed if you can meet any one of those three tests. You can't make the design test for sure. You might be able to testify that the cruiser is primarily used to haul property but that would make it a work truck or maybe a farm truck. Either way, there is probably a requirement in california that such a vehicle be registered for commercial use. Same thing for maintained.
up here in canuckistan the law is similar but you would need to get your vehicle officially reclassified as a commercial vehicle for the "motortruck" type designation to work. when that happens the government issues you an official GVWR and then you have to paint the gvwr on the side of the vehicle. that affects your annual road tax and i think your insurance plus there are annual registration fees. it also opens you up to being safety inspected according to a different standard for commercial vehicles.
so if I was you, I'd pay the fine, but plan B would be to put your best foot forward on "motor truck". There are probably cases out there commenting on that definition which would tell you if you have a chance. If you go to your local courthouse and find the library the librarian will likely show you how to find cases that have considered s. 410 of the california vehicle code. if you find any helpful cases photocopy them and take them to court with you (you need 3 copies)
good luck
looking at that linked site provided by stevenash here is what i found
465. A "passenger vehicle" is any motor vehicle, other than a motortruck, truck tractor, or a bus, as defined in Section 233 , and used or maintained for the transportation of persons. The term "passenger vehicle" shall include a housecar.
ok great, so Concrete wants to be one of those other things or a "housecar" which is excepted under the height restriction... the definitions of bus and tractor truck don't help but there is some room in motor truck and housecar.
410. A "motor truck" or "motortruck" is a motor vehicle designed, used, or maintained primarily for the transportation of property.
hmm, maybe, maybe not. we'll come back to that. let's try housecar.
362. A "house car" is a motor vehicle originally designed, or permanently altered, and equipped for human habitation, or to which a camper has been permanently attached. A motor vehicle to which a camper has been temporarily attached is not a house car except that, for the purposes of Division 11 (commencing with Section 21000) and Division 12 (commencing with Section 24000), a motor vehicle equipped with a camper having an axle that is designed to support a portion of the weight of the camper unit shall be considered a three-axle house car regardless of the method of attachment or manner of registration. A house car shall not be deemed to be a motortruck.
hmm, what's a "camper"?
243. A "camper" is a structure designed to be mounted upon a motor vehicle and to provide facilities for human habitation or camping purposes. A camper having one axle shall not be considered a vehicle.
Ok, well if you permanently weld a pop up tent to the roof I think you can call it a housecar. otherwise, let's go back to "motor truck".
breaking it down you need to show either that the vehcile was primariy designed to move property (e.g., not passengers), is primary used to move property not passengers, or is primarily maintained to move property not passengers. That is kind of a weird definition giving you three options like that so maybe in california statute drafting "or" does not mean or, but the best way I see it, you can succeed if you can meet any one of those three tests. You can't make the design test for sure. You might be able to testify that the cruiser is primarily used to haul property but that would make it a work truck or maybe a farm truck. Either way, there is probably a requirement in california that such a vehicle be registered for commercial use. Same thing for maintained.
up here in canuckistan the law is similar but you would need to get your vehicle officially reclassified as a commercial vehicle for the "motortruck" type designation to work. when that happens the government issues you an official GVWR and then you have to paint the gvwr on the side of the vehicle. that affects your annual road tax and i think your insurance plus there are annual registration fees. it also opens you up to being safety inspected according to a different standard for commercial vehicles.
so if I was you, I'd pay the fine, but plan B would be to put your best foot forward on "motor truck". There are probably cases out there commenting on that definition which would tell you if you have a chance. If you go to your local courthouse and find the library the librarian will likely show you how to find cases that have considered s. 410 of the california vehicle code. if you find any helpful cases photocopy them and take them to court with you (you need 3 copies)
good luck
- Joined
- Jul 20, 2004
- Threads
- 274
- Messages
- 23,205
- Location
- Chandler, AZ
- Website
- www.tontorecreationalliance.org
e9999 said:
I see a few outs here, don't know if they would fly?
(d) Motor vehicles equipped with four-wheel drive.
This may put you in the GVW class?
(f) Motor vehicles operated for hire, compensation, or profit.
Start an expedition tours company, it doesn't have to be successful, make money or do anything, but the needed paperwork, accounting. You can probably get some nice tax write offs for a couple of years on your truck upgrades, maintenance and wheeling receipts as "trails research" until the IRS calls it a hobby.
(h) Motor vehicles designed and constructed by the manufacturer of such vehicles, for off-highway use, as determined by the Department of Motor Vehicles.
The LC is designed for off-highway use.
Last edited:
The exemptions quoted by e9999 for four wheel drive vehicles is specific to the division of code enacted in the '70s relating to requirements for energy absorbing bumpers. It, and the other exemptions quoted, are not applicable to the frame height requirements.
semlin
curmudgeon
yup, the frame height requirement is division 12, bu that modified definition applies to division 14.9 the way i read it.
Get the sawzall out, cut the roof off and make it a pickup. No more passenger vehicle.
I wonder how many lifted to the sky Tahoes and Excursions are in violation.
I wonder how many lifted to the sky Tahoes and Excursions are in violation.
This could get interesting depending on the judge..
I would present the argument that it isn't a passenger vehicle.
Take out the rear seats, put boxes in/ borrow someone’s drawer system.
The GVWR issue
Take pictures of the GVWR and something that shows the land cruiser classified as something other that a passenger vehicle to present. (Excerpt from a Toyota manual referring to it as a truck or something similar)
Like Cary said ...don’t what every you do, do not challenge the officer, He is a professional witness and you will loose that one quick and piss off the judge.. Which is not what you want to do?
I would present the argument that it isn't a passenger vehicle.
Take out the rear seats, put boxes in/ borrow someone’s drawer system.
The GVWR issue
Take pictures of the GVWR and something that shows the land cruiser classified as something other that a passenger vehicle to present. (Excerpt from a Toyota manual referring to it as a truck or something similar)
Like Cary said ...don’t what every you do, do not challenge the officer, He is a professional witness and you will loose that one quick and piss off the judge.. Which is not what you want to do?
