BC government is at it again

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You can count on my help as well :)

Chris

thanks Chris...

now here is the stituation, the gent that was originally spearheading this new site has had some personal setbacks so if someone wants to give me some guidlines for ht enew site that would be appreciated.

here is what i wish to achieve:
no bickering between the clans
a place where the owners of the imported units can come and gather.
a place to post up the recent ideas, information, plans and bounce these ideas off each other.
a place to post up the name of the owner, (the type of vehicle, the location, email and other contact info will be kept private in my database for contact purposes only. not ti be released to any other person or parties without the written consent of the individual)
as the number grows then we will have a good base of owners to draw upon to get advice from. for this use it would be good if you let me know what your occupation is. i know i have lawyers, police, wardens, doctors, etc in my sales. (i will contact them as well)
the most important is for ALL the import crowd to pull and work together.

let me know what you think...

cheers
 
I agree that a driving test is not a solution and would be descrimination.

And can you tell me how it would disctriminate? Against bad drivers who are now loose on our streets and highways and cause immeasurable grief to others ? In Germany you can drive the speed you want on the Autobahn, but you have to drive well, meaning go with the flow and don't interfere with fast traffic or you'll be stopped by the cops. There is no such law here. The people who drive bad, go all over the road, interfere with the traffic flow (drive at 110 and on the left highway lane and stay there, for example) are not bothered and those who drive safely but fast are stopped and fined heavily. Now don't you think that is discriminatory?

This idea was also posted on BC4X4.com. It really gets me that someone who only has driven a small car most of their life can, without any training and additional licencing, hop into the drivers seat of a 25 foot motor home with a 16 foot trailer in tow. There is no comparison between this and a RHD vehicle.

No comparison? Well maybe in terms of measure, but not in terms of principle. But I understand your being upset, because it basically tells you that it's OK to drive a motorhome cold turkey from driving a compact car but not OK to drive a RHD vehicle of same size and type. Remember, those proposals are biased and are put forth by small minded and short sighted people who admit they have never tested it out and have no intention of doing so (remember that one time government type who posted here earlier last year)

Yet somehow, the driving position shifted to the right a few feet "could be" a danger? :censor:

Agreed! But don't you think a test would bring facts to the discussion instead of endless opinionateted bickering? When I appear in court (as I do several times a year in the course of my work), there is one constrant that can never be ignored: the FACTS. If your credibility is put in doubt by slick argumentation from the opposing party, one thing always remains unadulterated: the facts. Facts speak for thermselves. Such a test would put an end to the pretense at the basis of this proposal, that RHD vehicles are the problem.

As for a bilingual site, this is the only way to go if we want to be seen as a truely national force. The association will need both a contact in English Canada and French Canada (preferabley Quebec). The feds will then take the organization very seriously - even better if there is Quebec provincial government and Bloc support for our efforts.

I would be happy to get together with anyone here in Quebec. I'm north of Montreal. Que tous ceux qui se sentent plus à l'aise en Français me contactent, ça me fera plaisir d'en discuter. L'échange d'idées et d'opinions même contradictoires peut être peu fructueuse, mais l'exercisse est toujours profitable.

I could just imagine how this would play out in the House and with Inter Provincial Relations. Let's not forget, the revision of motor vehicle acts and the TC regulations are just one item on the national provincial harmonization agenda. Industries want to see the same rules in all provinces - especially with regards to transportation.

We don't have to be real big in numbers to ensure common sense prevails. We just have to be vocal and have a few of the right people on side. Does any body know someone who knows the key federal ministers personally? Are there any contacts with key business leaders throughout the country who have RHD vehicles?

John

Food for thought, John! I've gotten to know a few fairly well connected people over the years, but no one specifically connected to this issue. I can always talk about the issue with my cousin, who's a lawyer for an unrelated government agency in Ottawa for some pointers.

Chris
 
Wayne keeping telling me that I should post more often, so I’ll add my $.02 to this discussion in the form of a summary of the main points that I feel are important. So far I’ve found the discussion interesting but somewhat alarmist. I first became acutely aware of this issue one morning last August as I was waiting for the installation of my scooter lift on my BJ74. The technical manager, who deals extensively with Transport Canada in the exportation and importation of handicapped conversion vans, informed me that Transport Canada HAD banned the importation of all RHD vehicles (note that he used the past tense). Also around the coffeepot was a company salesman whose wife was a manager for one of the PRIVATE for profit insurance companies here in Edmonton. He informed us that her insurance company was in a quandary as what to do with RHD vehicles. This was quite a surprise and shock to me, so when I got home I immediately checked with the Mud forum. Personally I think there are three issues involved here: vehicle safety (Provincial MOT & Transport Canada), cost of insurance (Allstate, Co-operators, ICBC, etc.), and a change in importation regulations (Transport Canada).

As owners of RHD vehicles we are all aware of the dangers in passing on two lane highways and to a lesser extent, left hand turns. When my wife took our HDJ81 down the Rocky Mountain House in November to do some training, my biggest concern was her passing on the two-lane highway between Sylvan Lake and Rocky not the icy roads at the time. I told her not to do it unless it was absolutely necessary. I think this forces us all to be much more cautious and most likely results in fewer accidents much like the lower accident rates on high narrow mountain roads. I totally agree with other on this forum that there are many other advantages that make RHD vehicles safer. As a disabled person it is much safer for me to exit my vehicle on the curb when I have to walk around the back to extract my scooter or wheel chair. I strongly believe that it would be very difficult for Transport Canada or the insurance companies to prove that RHD vehicles are less safe than similar aged LHD vehicles. On the other hand, it would be easy to prove that 15-year-old vehicles in general are less safe than newer ones as the posted STUDY points out. I would be very surprised if Transport Canada made any changes to the current regulations, as it would open them up to political pressure and possible legal action. The current minister responsible for Transport Canada, Larry Cannon, is a highly endangered Quebec conservative politician and I sure that the last thing he would want is a backlash from this, especially during an election year. I’ve searched though all the news releases on their website and found no mention of any immanent changes regarding RHD vehicles.

On the insurance issue I’m not that familiar with government run plans because I immigrated from BC to Alberta back in the 70’s. However, the private for profit one, like the one here in Alberta, concern me the most. We all know that they operate on the high premium-low payout ideology and are primarily concerned with high profits for their shareholders. I’ll admit by bias here as I’m not a huge fan of private auto insurance, there are many good reasons why most Canadian provinces have brought in public plans. Having said this, I believe all insurance companies, both public and private, would have to have our RHD vehicles ruled unsafe by Transport Canada, otherwise they would have to have the numbers to back up any rate increases. Is my local RHD garbage truck going to ruled unsafe and has its insurance rate jacked up so high that it can’t pick up my garbage every week? I don’t think so!

I totally agree with PreviaDiesel when he stated, "Harmonization' with US regulations. If you're not sure why they'd want to do that, Google "North American Integration" and "Beyond NAFTA". Basically, they are going to formalize our colonial status by the back door: regulatory changes with no public discussion or debate". Our current administration does everything else lock step with their brethren south of the border so why would they be any different here. This could result in a change in the importation regulation from 15 to 25 years. This would be the easy way out and would placate both the provincial governments and insurance companies. This would be my biggest concern especially if I was a vendor.

As an owner of 2 RHD LandCruisers I not overly worried about any action from my provincial government or my insurance company as long as my vehicles pass the provincial inspections. The provincial governments only have the mandate to inspect vehicles NOT change the safety and importation regulations; this can only be done by Transport Canada. I suspect the noise generated by the BC government is mostly due to its proximity to the port of entry (Vancouver) and as mdrive pointed out, the importers that circumvent the safety regulations. I agree with ishobie and others that it would be a good idea that all the vendors work together under some association. As I see it, this is a largely unregulated industry and an association would provide the vendors some liaison with the various government agencies. As far as customer action is concerned, John hit the nail on the head when he stated, "If the card is addressed to the Minister of Transport at his Parliament Hill address." I think the best approach here is not wasting time in addressing our concerns to the provincial governments, insurance companies, or local MPs. I support the idea that a template letter be circulated that we could modify and send to the current transport minister, John Cannon. Wayne, is this going to be posted on your website? When this occurs I will take the time and send it in..
 
Doug,
good to see you are becoming more active.

first, once i get a template letter from someone i will post it both to my site and to this thread and to the new Import owners Association site.

passing on a two lane highway is challenging in both LHD and RHD units. if you tailgate then your view is restricted in both units, stay back a bit more and the RHD becomes less to no challenge... problem is with todays drivers everyone wants to be first. if you are in a big rush then you shouldn't be on the road at all, you are a threat to yourself and everyone around you. as you say, it makes us all,LHD and RHD drivers more cautious (or it should).

Thanks for joining up Doug.

I sent off some more studies to my site which i hope will be up tonight or tomorrow. one is similar to the Japan one i posted here and the other deals with Great Britain and there studies with crashes and insurance rates.

we are getting some real action happening, i sincerely hope it continues to snowball into some positive results...
 
Yet somehow, the driving position shifted to the right a few feet "could be" a danger? :censor:
John

John, an interesting point. the distance from standard driving position of a LHD unit vs the same unit in a RHD configuration is only about 27"...
worse case scenerio is you have to lean over to see the same as a LHD operator...

cheers
 
I totally agree with PreviaDiesel when he stated, "Harmonization' with US regulations. If you're not sure why they'd want to do that, Google "North American Integration" and "Beyond NAFTA". Basically, they are going to formalize our colonial status by the back door: regulatory changes with no public discussion or debate". Our current administration does everything else lock step with their brethren south of the border so why would they be any different here. This could result in a change in the importation regulation from 15 to 25 years. This would be the easy way out and would placate both the provincial governments and insurance companies. This would be my biggest concern especially if I was a vendor.

I agree. When the conservative party have come to power one year ago, i have started to have a little fear that they would change the import law to 25 years to make it the same as in south of the border, this party like so much to do everything like in the US that it would be a logical move for them to do so. I realise that i was right to have this concern when only 2 months after we started to hear the first rumeur that Transport Canada was looking into a law change, which later have been confirmed to be true.

The provincial governments only have the mandate to inspect vehicles NOT change the safety and importation regulations; this can only be done by Transport Canada.

I dont think you are exactly right on this. While the provincial gouverments in fact i cant do any change to the importation regulation by their own (it's administred at the federal by Canada Border Services Agency), they can have their own norms on safety regulation of vehicule. The way i see it, the Transport Canada norms on safety regulation is there for the manufacturers that commercialise news cars models on the canadian market. The provincial gouvernments with their transport minister are free to have the safety regulation they want, they can satisfy their own need like that if they need to. If you compare closely between the text of regulation of the provinces and of the federal you will see that there is a slight differances.


For pratical reason, a provincal will not do a satefy regulation that is more strict or come in contradition on the text of the federal because if it was the case cars models would become illegal for road use and would have to modify for that regulation only in that province. So the provincal regulation tent to be the same or even a little less stick on certain aspect. Except for one exception! Anyone remember that on the first Toyota RAV4 of 96 and 97 their front side reflectors was positioned on the fender behind the front wheel. The Transport Canada regulation text (in the one of NHTSA in US also) do not explicaly say where the front and rear side reflector and marker must be placed on the car, it only state that it can "as close as praticable" to the front or to the rear. This is while some province (but not all) state that it must be placed ONLY on the front and rear part of the car. This had made a confusion at Toyota and they had to recall only in Canada the RAV4 to stick a little round reflector on the front bumper. In the US, Toyota did not had to do this recall.

I think us should use this allowed liberty for the province to have their own safety regulation as a argument to ask Transport Canada to do not change the 15 years old import rule. If the provincal see issue with the increase of imported cars, why do they ask TC to do something when they can do something on their own with their law on safety regulation. It is because BC and Alberta gouvernement are just to lazy to do it?

About the importation regulation, anyone correct me if i'm wrong, the 15 years old rules is it self NOT a law from TC, it's a law from Canada Border Services Agency. And the Form 1 from TC is only a notice to the provinces used as verification to ensure them it's not a stolen car that will be register.

This 15 years old rules have been adopted in 1986. There is 2 thing that interest me to know: in 1986 do all provinces in Canada had a out of province vehicule inspection system in place like today or does in some provinces could imported cars be register without being inspected before? In 1986 who had make pressure for the amendement, the provinces, a group of something (like car dealers or domestic car markers) or the federal had only decided it on their own without external pressure?

Anyone know where is possible to search for informations about what had happen at this time?

-Mat
 
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my view of the report posted earlier by Preiva:
http://www.luxuryimports.ca/faq/joinfight.php

Australia went to a 30-year ruling due to the same concerns, profit. It did not have anything to do with the safety of the units being imported.

BTW what's writed about Australia on this paper is not true! See this page: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grey_import

For a while, cars over 15 years old could be imported, and only needed to gain a roadworthy certificate (needed for registration transfer in many states anyway), but this has been changed to vehicles only made prior to 1st January 1989.

Also (not mentioned on this page), cars newer than 1st january 1989 can still be imported and register in Australia as it was before. It have to pass by a process similar to the SVA in UK, called Specialist & Enthusiast Vehicle Scheme (SEVS): http://www.dotars.gov.au/roads/motor/sevs/index.aspx

-Mat
 
Mat,
thanks for the correction... i will get this up on my site asap...
i didn't think the information posted was right but i didn't have time to dig deeper.
i figured if anyone spotted a mistake they would let me know...

cheers
 
When the conservative party have come to power one year ago, i have started to have a little fear that they would change the import law to 25 years to make it the same as in south of the border, this party like so much to do everything like in the US that it would be a logical move for them to do so. I realise that i was right to have this concern when only 2 months after we started to hear the first rumeur that Transport Canada was looking into a law change, which later have been confirmed to be true.

-Mat

I don't want to make this political but the BIG push to go to 25 years is from B.C. and the power brokers in B.C. are in HEAVILY with the federal Liberals (the current B.C. government is Liberal)! Some of the spouses of present or former B.C. MLA's are poised to be the federal Liberal campaign big wigs.
You can blame some things on the Conservatives but I don't think the push to change vehicle import laws is one of them.
 
The BC Liberal party does not equal the Federal Liberal party....other than a similar name they are distinct organizations. The policies of the BC liberal party are more in line with the federal Conservative party. Just to clear that up for the non-BC folk...
 
NA Produced New RHD Private Jeeps

As the poster says, these are NEW North American produced RHD vehicles for sale to the general public from a Jeep dealer who specializes in these vehicles. I think Mermaide.5 said that these vehicles were only first sold to be first registered commercially. Apparently it just is not so. The dealer also says they have a "Canadian Outlet". Perhaps they may want to join with us?
John


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Re: Vehicles Imported from Overseas.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mermaid.5
Ever wonder why there aren't any North American mass produced RHD"s. It would be perfectly legal under our current rules to do it. Hmmm ,I wonder why no manufacturer has jumped on board?

Jeep produces RHD Wranglers in the USA for postal use but they are available for sale to anyone who wants one. No proof of employment with the USPS is apparently required.

http://www.postalpete.com/default.php

According to the site, no RHD Wrangler will be built for the 2007 model year so DC is producing RHD Liberties to fill the void until the 2008 Wrangler RHD is ready.
__________________

O|||||O 2003 Jeep TJ Rubicon, Intense Blue, 2" RE BB, 1" BL, 33" Xterrains, RockIt antenna mount, Uniden CB, 48" Firestik, homemade 1 3/4" seat lift.
 
The BC Liberal party does not equal the Federal Liberal party....other than a similar name they are distinct organizations. The policies of the BC liberal party are more in line with the federal Conservative party. Just to clear that up for the non-BC folk...

Not exactly!! Christy Clark (former B.C. Liberal MLA) and family are HEAVILY involved in the federal Liberal party and VERY high in the echelons of power as are others! I agree that the provincial Liberal party and the federal Liberal party are not the same organization though.
 
gentlemen, please refrain from the political debate or open a new thread in chat.

i can see both sides of the issue but this is not helpin g us at this time.

BC is the only province that is STRONGLY pushing this agenda... the other provinces are waiting and watching the results.

anyone have ideas for the new site? i want to get to work on this asap but i am seriously computor illiterate...
a letter template would be nice as well... shoot me anything so i can get started on a template...
 
Agreed! But don't you think a test would bring facts to the discussion instead of endless opinionateted bickering? When I appear in court (as I do several times a year in the course of my work), there is one constrant that can never be ignored: the FACTS. If your credibility is put in doubt by slick argumentation from the opposing party, one thing always remains unadulterated: the facts. Facts speak for thermselves. Such a test would put an end to the pretense at the basis of this proposal, that RHD vehicles are the problem.

Personally, I do not mind a test if it means keeping my truck and insurance as it is now. However, I can see that many others would not support it - including those that use NA Production RHD (privately or commercially). If there is generall agreement from the RHD community (especially the JDM folks), I would be happy to have us propose a test. But, the government knows full well that every driver of a RHD vehicle - commercial or private - would have to do the test. It would not stand up against a constitutional challenge. I am not a lawyer but I do know our constituion and Charter of Rights and Freedoms. I am quite sure that someone would eventually take it to court and call it descrimination. The only example they would have to provide to a judge (or judges) is my motor home and trailer example verses a driving position of (as Wayne says) 27".
 
Some more thoughts on the safety of RHD

Hi to all,

Heres some of my thoughts on the current dilema,

I think we need to ask TC and the provincial Governments more questions.

"Mike Woods, manager for vehicle inspections in the province,
said that while there's no evidence of accidents caused by
right-hand-drive vehicles, officials need more time to
determine their safety record."

( CBC News Friday, December 22, 2006 | 4:44 PM ET)


If this is the case and TC needs more time to determine the safety record of RHD's then,

What studies have been done so far?
What studies are currently under way?
What type of studies does TC plan to do?
Why are they considering banning all imports less than 25 years old, many of which may be LHD?
How much time do they need?

While its true that imports 15 years an older are excempt from CMVSS (canadian motor vehicle safety standards) they are NOT excempt from provincial standards of safety, namely the OOP (out of province).

So it is clearly untrue that "none of these vehicles has to meet any safety standard" (Lecuyer & Chouinard 2006)

It is also inaccurate to state that these vehicles do not meet CMVSS. Vehicles from Japan (JDM) and other markets are designed to meet the safety standards of those markets and may well MEET or EXCEED CMVSS. So imports may be safer than CDM vehicles in some or all aspects. I think we should make some of the public officials aware of these points.

In addition for those who import for a living it may be helpfull to make your suppliers (in japan or eslewhere) aware of TC future position on 15 year old imports. While Canada may not be a huge market for exports from other countries they may have some economic clout to help our cause.

Also those of you into biodiesel can make a case for importing diesels that arent available here. Where else can you get a 7 passenger turbo diesel SUV than in Japan? Maybe make a case that your trying to help the enviroment by using biofuels or just by the fact that your SUV only uses a 2.4L instead of a domestic Hemi.

Those of you into the micro "kie" cars could also use the enviromental approach. An alternative to the Smart car or something. It would be hard to argue against enviromentalism.

Anyways I hope this helps the cause,

Mike
 
some good points there Mike, welcome to the fight.

cheers
 
Personally, I do not mind a test if it means keeping my truck and insurance as it is now. However, I can see that many others would not support it - including those that use NA Production RHD (privately or commercially).

[...]

I am quite sure that someone would eventually take it to court and call it descrimination.

Exactly. Now do you see the ramifications of this? They are already discriminating against us. Do you really think TC wants to stir up this hornet's nest? This regulation proposal cannot be made to stick in its present form.

Bottom line, if the argument to ban RHD vehicles is one of safety on the road, it will have to be proven. And if it is forced upon the public, it will be challenged in court. Then you just watch for the mess, as a law based on safety will not only challenge RHD vehicles or drivers but the established LHD sector as well. And I seriously doubt they'd want to get into this kind of mess.

I wish we had a lawyer on board to look into this argumentation. Unless we admit our system is hopelessly biased, unfair and undemoctratic, or the lackey of the U.S., I believe we have a strong argument against the uneducated and short sighted fear mongers who are behind this proposal.

Wake up, Folks, this is NOT Nazi Germany in the 30s!!!!
 
Also those of you into biodiesel can make a case for importing diesels that arent available here. Where else can you get a 7 passenger turbo diesel SUV than in Japan? Maybe make a case that your trying to help the enviroment by using biofuels or just by the fact that your SUV only uses a 2.4L instead of a domestic Hemi.

This is actually a good point. I work for Agriculture Canada and one of the national priority items of research is the generation of biofuels in Canada, particularily in areas of marginal land/climate, both for ecconomic and environmental benefit.

If biofuels are a national priority it would stand to reason that the availability of vehicles able to use them should be encouraged. Since there are few if any domestic smaller displacement diesel vehicles available they must be imported used until such vehicles are available new and domestic.

While this point is a tangent to any potential safety issue, it is another valid topic of discussion to deter the movement to a 25 year import law. Unfortunately, environmental issues are not typically given too much weight in the descision making process. But maybe people in Ottawa might be more open to the realities of climate change as of late considering the winter they have been having...
 
Psilosin:
from the information i have been gleaning from other countries proving RHD on LHD highways to be safe is not goign to be a problem. i am working on a paper as we speak to back the Canadian stats, not the twisted TC version.

i am now onto a $$ value, which our mighty goverment will be most interested in. i am sitting down this weekend with a couple of accountants to crunch numbers and formulate into table of revenue that the average month and year of importation generates. it is astounding to say the least.
if we can add to this possible green house emision reduction due to biodiesel then this is both a revenue generator as well appealing to the Canadian goverments desire to keep up with the rest of the world in reducing the emissions.
once i have a table made up i will post it to my site so we can go over the figures together.

once i have everything formulated into a document then those that have been participating will get a chance to view the final paper for modification and verification of facts (unlike the present paper created by TC).
any and all ideas are welcome. please email them direct to
wayne@crushersrule.com
cheers
 
Psilosin:
from the information i have been gleaning from other countries proving RHD on LHD highways to be safe is not goign to be a problem. i am working on a paper as we speak to back the Canadian stats, not the twisted TC version.
cheers

Well that is encouranging. Reports from abroad cannot be ignored, add to that the argumentation that safety testing if imposed could not be imposed just on RHD vehicle owners/drivers (because of discrimination) and I'm sure this ill conceived, ill-informed proposal won't have much to stand on and stands a better chance to be dismissed.

It would be nice if we could get some input from some people with a legal or political background...

Chris
 
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