Bad rear wheel bearing? (4 Viewers)

[linuxgod]

Whhhaaattttt???!!! Me say gears should never make sounds? Well... yeah that’s does sound like me.

I guess generally, lower gears can make more sound than higher gears. One thing that sounds out of place to me is when you said the sound is when you are both on, and off the throttle. So for me, gears meshing on the drive side or the coast side should always change tone. And generally constant sounds are not gears.

I’m gonna go way out and suggest something odd, but worth a shot up front. Since the front wheel bearings were replaced, that means there was a good chance that the hubs had to be knocked off, and the only way to do that is tap the back of the front dust shields. Those are super thin material and you may have one of them dragging the disk brake barely. It wouldn’t be the first time I’ve seen it. But just check that first before diving into bearing and gears.

If anything, it’s therapeutic to work on... something.

Took it for another spin this evening, paying closer attention. There’s a bit of constant howl but in fact it is definitely more pronounced howl when I’m on the throttle than when coasting. I also feel it in the steering wheel a bit and and hear it in particular in the 25-30 range. Wife noticed it but said “I’ve just grown to accept the truck is noisy.” So yeah seems more on the drive side than the coast side

Scratch the heavy steering comment, it all felt normal today. I think jumping from the rental back to the truck threw me in that.

 

[bloc]

If anything, it’s therapeutic to work on... something.

I keep telling myself this.

 

[linuxgod]

Chassis ears hooked up this morning and confirmed the rear is good but the front ain't set right.

Rear diff:
Front diff:

it's louder when on the throttle, a tad clicky when coasting, and you can hear it click in and out.

So, back to the %*&#@ shop I suppose. Now the big question, I've put ~50 *very* careful miles on these so far, but am I now at a point where the front gears are going to always be noisy because the teeth mating surfaces aren't perfectly aligned, or if I take it back now (30 miles) and the front gets re-shimmed is it going to still break-in fine?

Side note: The $90 I spent on those chassis ears has more than paid for itself. Seriously everyone should own a set.

 

[linuxgod]

Additional video of my starting with the front and switching to the rear at about 0:30 in, just in case anyone wants a direct comparison flipping between them.

 

[CharlieS]

That must be really frustrating.

Hopefully the shop is good about redoing the work to get it right. Still a hassle for you though.

In my head I want to say that is definitely the gears, but I’m just a shade tree mechanic. Is there any chance that is something like a dragging caliper or stone shield scraping? Maybe move the chassis ears around just to verify it is coming from the diff, just to rule other things out?

Are the people at your shop tech savvy enough to email them those clips? I’d think a pro could get a pretty good sense from hearing them.

Chassis ears are great. I don’t use them often, but they paid for themselves the first time I used them.

 

[linuxgod]

That must be really frustrating.

Hopefully the ship is good about redoing the work to get it right. Still a hassle for you though.

Chassis ears are great. I don’t use them often, but they paid for themselves the first time I used them.

I suspect they will be. They were good about offsetting the cost of my rental since the job went over the expected 3 days due to the Nitro kit missing a deal and then the CV boot didn't fit (Tundra/Sequoia boot) and they were on backorder. Again the big question now is whether the ring and pinion should be replaced or if it's fine to re-shim and continue the break-in. I'm going to call Nitro when they open this morning to see if they'll weigh in.

 

[CharlieS]

Pure guess, but I bet they sugggest a tear down and visual inspection. Then, if there isn’t any visible physical damage, measurable wear or indication of overheating, adjust until the wear pattern reads right and then go break them in.

 

[linuxgod]

Pure guess, but I bet they sugggest a tear down and visual inspection. Then, if there isn’t any visible physical damage, measurable wear or indication of overheating, adjust until the wear pattern reads right and then go break them in.

Yeah I'd venture the same guess.

Second question for them will be "do you have them in stock?" When the shop did the initial order back in October the fronts were available but the rears were on backorder and took 2 months...

 

[linuxgod]

Pure guess, but I bet they sugggest a tear down and visual inspection. Then, if there isn’t any visible physical damage, measurable wear or indication of overheating, adjust until the wear pattern reads right and then go break them in.

Nitro says "if you've taken it easy on them it's fine, just get it back to the shop and have it adjusted. It's likely a minor adjustment required and 80 miles of wear won't cause future gear noise as long as you take it easy and get it taken care of soon"

And here I thought I was done with that stupid Corolla rental

 

[linuxgod]

The shop sent me the gear patterns for the front. I think the first one is the drive side and the second is the coast side and both look reasonable to me, but I'm no expert. Based on the Nitro instructions maybe the pinion is a bit deep? He did say it was "a bit hard to read because you never can get a very crisp pattern on these fronts as there's no good way to put resistance on the ring while turning the pinion, but you can see it's a very even swipe across the face of the tooth" (which I'd agree with, in my limited knowledge). He also said "if anything to me the video sounds more like a bearing noise than any sort of gear noise, still an issue but not as concerning.. I did have a bit of trouble getting the pinion bearing preload properly set up, there's a chance it's a hair too tight"

@Taco2Cruiser, @TeCKis300, or others more experienced at this than me, what do you guys think?

And the contact pattern that Nitro puts in their doc:

 

[supercarrera]

I'm definitely no expert but to me your gear pattern looks like the bottom right of the Nitro guide where it says pinion depth should be decreased. But like you say, your pattern might not be accurate do to the lack of resistance.

 

[linuxgod]

I'm definitely no expert but to me your gear pattern looks like the bottom right of the Nitro guide where it says pinion depth should be decreased. But like you say, your pattern might not be accurate do to the lack of resistance.

Yeah I hate to question it since I'm a total novice. My sense is the same, adding a bit of load will shift the pattern slightly. And it's a shop I trust, so I should probably just drop it off and let them take another look at it. It's the OCD in me that wants to gather as much info as is humanly possible first. I should probably stop that.

 

[TeCKis300]

The shop sent me the gear patterns for the front. I think the first one is the drive side and the second is the coast side and both look reasonable to me, but I'm no expert. Based on the Nitro instructions maybe the pinion is a bit deep? He did say it was "a bit hard to read because you never can get a very crisp pattern on these fronts as there's no good way to put resistance on the ring while turning the pinion, but you can see it's a very even swipe across the face of the tooth" (which I'd agree with, in my limited knowledge). He also said "if anything to me the video sounds more like a bearing noise than any sort of gear noise, still an issue but not as concerning.. I did have a bit of trouble getting the pinion bearing preload properly set up, there's a chance it's a hair too tight"

@Taco2Cruiser, @TeCKis300, or others more experienced at this than me, what do you guys think?

View attachment 2625878

View attachment 2625879

And the contact pattern that Nitro puts in their doc:

View attachment 2625886

If I'm not mistaken, the 2nd pic is the drive (convex) side, with 1st pic (concave) being coast. Just the same, I would read it as you did that it's just a hair too tight on pinion depth. What I don't have experience with is whether this is at the threshold enough to call it good? Maybe @bjowett can comment?

 

[bloc]

I also read that as too tight, but I'm not sure what effect not being able to put resistance on the diff carrier while establishing pattern has on things.



Here is Zuk's setup of a front 200 diff. Pattern looks different than above, and he knows his s***.

488 front 9" clam gear install

ZUK shares many close-up good pics of Toyota gear installs

gearinstalls.com

Direct images

 

[bjowett]

I have limited experience setting up gears. Need to get more pressure on there for a cleaner pattern to emerge.

 

[linuxgod]

I’m dropping it back off tomorrow for him to take a look. He noted that with the front clamshell it’s harder to get the same pressure on the front diff as the rear. I can’t exactly tell how Zuk did it from the two articles he has though.

Anyone know if there’s any setup differences (or tricks) between the Tundra and the LC? I know the Tundra is only part time 4WD. The shop has done lots of tundras and 80/100 series but there isn’t much of a call for 200-series gearing changes in Chicago

 

[Taco2Cruiser]

The shop sent me the gear patterns for the front. I think the first one is the drive side and the second is the coast side and both look reasonable to me, but I'm no expert. Based on the Nitro instructions maybe the pinion is a bit deep? He did say it was "a bit hard to read because you never can get a very crisp pattern on these fronts as there's no good way to put resistance on the ring while turning the pinion, but you can see it's a very even swipe across the face of the tooth" (which I'd agree with, in my limited knowledge). He also said "if anything to me the video sounds more like a bearing noise than any sort of gear noise, still an issue but not as concerning.. I did have a bit of trouble getting the pinion bearing preload properly set up, there's a chance it's a hair too tight"

@Taco2Cruiser, @TeCKis300, or others more experienced at this than me, what do you guys think?

View attachment 2625878

View attachment 2625879

And the contact pattern that Nitro puts in their doc:

View attachment 2625886

Pattern looks acceptable. Front clam shells are more finicky. They get their

The shop sent me the gear patterns for the front. I think the first one is the drive side and the second is the coast side and both look reasonable to me, but I'm no expert. Based on the Nitro instructions maybe the pinion is a bit deep? He did say it was "a bit hard to read because you never can get a very crisp pattern on these fronts as there's no good way to put resistance on the ring while turning the pinion, but you can see it's a very even swipe across the face of the tooth" (which I'd agree with, in my limited knowledge). He also said "if anything to me the video sounds more like a bearing noise than any sort of gear noise, still an issue but not as concerning.. I did have a bit of trouble getting the pinion bearing preload properly set up, there's a chance it's a hair too tight"

@Taco2Cruiser, @TeCKis300, or others more experienced at this than me, what do you guys think?

View attachment 2625878

View attachment 2625879

And the contact pattern that Nitro puts in their doc:

View attachment 2625886

If I'm not mistaken, the 2nd pic is the drive (convex) side, with 1st pic (concave) being coast

Yep

@linuxgod the drive side is what matters as that is where load is taken from when in drive. Coast side is there just when you let your foot off the gas, and the tires are driving force back into the propshafts (propahafts go forward and back, driveshafts go left and right). But here is the real issue, they mistake the front from which side is coast and which side is drive.

Below is some info ammunition for you to talk with them. I’m guessing it’s Chi-Town.

That’s why when building a diff, it’s smarter to really focus on drive side being centered so you limit breaking teeth off. But coast side, unless you like to drive hard backward and then slam into rocks, takes far less stress. So coast side needs to be centered in relation to depth, but it’s okay to be inboard or outboard of the tooth itself. Which is why you mess pattern is really not too bad. If you were running something reverse geared, we would be having a different discussion, but Toyota found the error of their ways, and made the clamshell

One thing to note in setting preload for backlash. On a Toyota clamshell design, preload is achieved by how tight the case is fastened. Which is what makes clamshells more annoying as you have to fully build the thing and then cycle the gears, then take it all apart and see what happened. I know of guys who just loosely bolt the halves together and then check mesh, but that is just plain wrong.

All the fasteners that go around the case are torqued to 48 ft lbf and I like to use a start method. Then the mount bolts are torqued to 114 ft lbf. After that, check pinion preload with the crush sleeve and that goes to 332 ft lbf or less. This is where the shop might of “ugh duggahed” it for too long with an impact and over tightened. After that you can check backlash between the ring gear and the diff drive pinion, which depending on the spacer used will give a specified range the is required. Theeennnn... you can check total preload, which for your new stuff need to be between 15-21 in lbf. After all that, you take the whole case apart, and check mesh. If you are happy, do it all over again, exactly the same, and the diff is done. If not happy, try a new shim, and the process recycles again.

So knowing the shop did it for six attempts, they go to where they are at and called it good.

 

[linuxgod]

Pattern looks acceptable. Front clam shells are more finicky. They get their


Yep

@linuxgod the drive side is what matters as that is where load is taken from when in drive. Coast side is there just when you let your foot off the gas, and the tires are driving force back into the propshafts (propahafts go forward and back, driveshafts go left and right). But here is the real issue, they mistake the front from which side is coast and which side is drive.

Below is some info ammunition for you to talk with them. I’m guessing it’s Chi-Town.

That’s why when building a diff, it’s smarter to really focus on drive side being centered so you limit breaking teeth off. But coast side, unless you like to drive hard backward and then slam into rocks, takes far less stress. So coast side needs to be centered in relation to depth, but it’s okay to be inboard or outboard of the tooth itself. Which is why you mess pattern is really not too bad. If you were running something reverse geared, we would be having a different discussion, but Toyota found the error of their ways, and made the clamshell

One thing to note in setting preload for backlash. On a Toyota clamshell design, preload is achieved by how tight the case is fastened. Which is what makes clamshells more annoying as you have to fully build the thing and then cycle the gears, then take it all apart and see what happened. I know of guys who just loosely bolt the halves together and then check mesh, but that is just plain wrong.

All the fasteners that go around the case are torqued to 48 ft lbf and I like to use a start method. Then the mount bolts are torqued to 114 ft lbf. After that, check pinion preload with the crush sleeve and that goes to 332 ft lbf or less. This is where the shop might of “ugh duggahed” it for too long with an impact and over tightened. After that you can check backlash between the ring gear and the diff drive pinion, which depending on the spacer used will give a specified range the is required. Theeennnn... you can check total preload, which for your new stuff need to be between 15-21 in lbf. After all that, you take the whole case apart, and check mesh. If you are happy, do it all over again, exactly the same, and the diff is done. If not happy, try a new shim, and the process recycles again.

So knowing the shop did it for six attempts, they go to where they are at and called it good.

To be fair I assumed drive vs coast side based on where the pattern seemed to wear, he didn't say which was which. So if there's a mistake/issue in identifying them here, it's mine.

I feel pretty sure the number of attempts was about getting it to where they felt it was spot-on, not about "after 6 attempts this is close enough". If it was about just being done with the job they could've used an aftermarket CV boot for instance instead of keeping my truck for an extra 4-5 days and then offering to cover the extra rental time.

I don't need ammunition. They said no problem, bring it back, we'll make sure it's right and you're happy. I fully trust they'll get it dialed in. My hope was that having a few eyes on this there might be some consensus that "pinion depth is a bit too much" or "bearing preload is a bit too tight" or "hey I've had this and on the 200 you need to make sure you do X differently than on the 100-series" and thus help cut the re-work. As I said they've done lots of gears on Tundras and other trucks with the same 9" clamshell but not many 200s yet.

TBH I should've had one of the guys there just break the gears in for me, at least the first 50 miles or so. We originally planned 3 days for the work so I rented a car to get back and forth since they're an hour from me, but we had a couple parts delays along the way (Nitro kit was missing a seal, and then after getting things buttoned up he went to reboot my CV but the boot kit was the wrong one, and the LC ones were on backorder for days). So after ~12 days of the repair gods conspiring against me I was antsy to get it back and thus I don't think it got the same shakedown time as it should have. Despite that there's some noise in the 20-40mph range it is still quieter than the drivetrain was before (I'm chalking that up to the front wheel bearing). Without the chassis ears it's just a bit of resonance (howl) in that range. Easy enough to miss (or even think it's normal engine noise) in a quick road test unless you're OCD like I am.

 

[bloc]

Anyone else wondering what the differences are between tundra and 200 CV boots?

 

[linuxgod]

Anyone else wondering what the differences are between tundra and 200 CV boots?

Size, I assume, since we know the CVs are longer. I don't know how much different they are or how much it matters, but the Tundra/Sequoia is a different part # from the 200. If they are *slightly* wider diameter it would explain why the re-boot that was done on mine years ago was initially leaking grease. (Worm clamps resolved it though)