Bad Battery Bad Starter? (1 Viewer)

[arrivederci]

All good tips. Been struggling with this for a while on mine with under 75K. I've swapped a Costco/Interstate battery so many times to feel pretty good about ruling out the battery. I've also replaced the windshield cowl, cleaned the sunroof drains and pulled all the door sill harnesses for inspection. The lowest one on the passenger side showed some light corrosion so I used contact cleaner and di electric grease. Yesterday I gave the terminals a good cleaning, reinstalled and coated with anti-corrosion spray. If this still persists the 90 degree bends and grounds (motor to frame) are next.

Like many have said, the starter wouldn't be intermittent like this. My no starts usually happen after sitting in the driveway for a week or two. But a quick jump and it runs fine. Restarts fine too after driving for 20 minutes. A dead battery won't get enough charge from the alternator 20 mins. So my money is a bad connection/ground somewhere.

When I first got this truck, we had some random electrical cutouts while driving - screens go dead - then come back after a second. A dealer inspected and wanted to change the nav screen at $$$. I took it to an indy shop and they couldn't find anything. Then I dug in and found the battery hold down was loose and the terminals were loose. Tightened it all up and haven't had an issue for years until this latest one that I've been chasing for a bit.

Any recommended terminals to replace the 90 degree factory ones? I suppose the loose issue above could have accelerated the possibility to weaken/crack them.

 

[Zill]

All good tips. Been struggling with this for a while on mine with under 75K. I've swapped a Costco/Interstate battery so many times to feel pretty good about ruling out the battery. I've also replaced the windshield cowl, cleaned the sunroof drains and pulled all the door sill harnesses for inspection. The lowest one on the passenger side showed some light corrosion so I used contact cleaner and di electric grease. Yesterday I gave the terminals a good cleaning, reinstalled and coated with anti-corrosion spray. If this still persists the 90 degree bends and grounds (motor to frame) are next.

Like many have said, the starter wouldn't be intermittent like this. My no starts usually happen after sitting in the driveway for a week or two. But a quick jump and it runs fine. Restarts fine too after driving for 20 minutes. A dead battery won't get enough charge from the alternator 20 mins. So my money is a bad connection/ground somewhere.

When I first got this truck, we had some random electrical cutouts while driving - screens go dead - then come back after a second. A dealer inspected and wanted to change the nav screen at $$$. I took it to an indy shop and they couldn't find anything. Then I dug in and found the battery hold down was loose and the terminals were loose. Tightened it all up and haven't had an issue for years until this latest one that I've been chasing for a bit.

Any recommended terminals to replace the 90 degree factory ones? I suppose the loose issue above could have accelerated the possibility to weaken/crack them.

Sounds like you have a slow draw somewhere in the electrical system that’s draining the battery. The easiest way that I have found to track down what is causing it, is buying what’s called an amp hound, and then you can use this tool one by one on the fuses to see what’s pulling the excess current. (I would start with the interior fuse panel first)

The car wizard has a decent tutorial for it starting at the 6:20 mark.

For reference, I can keep my cruiser not started for a couple of weeks, and it still has enough power to start, so something is definitely draining your battery more than normal.

 

[arrivederci]

Sounds like you have a slow draw somewhere in the electrical system that’s draining the battery. The easiest way that I have found to track down what is causing it, is buying what’s called an amp hound, and then you can use this tool one by one on the fuses to see what’a pulling the excess current.

It is certainly possible. I have connected a meter up to measure amps (negative battery terminal) and one by one pulled fuses in the engine compartment...didn't really find anything with a large current draw. I can't remember what the total draw was with all fuses but I think it did seem high. Another thing to note - lots of systems running when you first shut off the truck, lock it etc. After a few minutes it 'sleeps' as those things shut down.

But wouldn't a slow draw kill the battery? If so, that doesn't explain why a jumper pack starts it and then all is normal on the next start after a short drive. At this point I'm willing to try anything to narrow it down and get this resolved.

 

[Zill]

It is certainly possible. I have connected a meter up to measure amps (negative battery terminal) and one by one pulled fuses in the engine compartment...didn't really find anything with a large current draw. I can't remember what the total draw was with all fuses but I think it did seem high. Another thing to note - lots of systems running when you first shut off the truck, lock it etc. After a few minutes it 'sleeps' as those things shut down.

But wouldn't a slow draw kill the battery? If so, that doesn't explain why a jumper pack starts it and then all is normal on the next start after a short drive. At this point I'm willing to try anything to narrow it down and get this resolved.

A slow drain does run the juice out of a battery over time so the battery won’t have enough cold cranking amps to turn the engine over, but once you start the car, the alternator charges back up the battery so in a short period of time you can restart the car, but if you let it sit overnight, then the drain draws so much from the battery that it won’t have enough juice to turn the engine over.

I revised my last post to go more in depth on how I would address the issue.

I found the amp hound works a bit better than a volt meter to track down what is causing the excess current draw.

A car running for 20 minutes will absolutely charge the battery enough to give it enough juice to restart it, so that doesn’t sound like it’s a ground issue, but a slow drain issue.

 

[arrivederci]

A slow drain does run the juice out of a battery over time so the battery won’t have enough cold cranking amps to turn the engine over, but once you start the car, the alternator charges back up the battery so in a short period of time you can restart the car, but if you let it sit overnight, then the drain draws so much from the battery that it won’t have enough juice to turn the engine over.

I revised my last post to go more in depth on how I would address the issue.

I found the amp hound works a bit better than a volt meter to track down what is causing the excess current draw.

A car running for 20 minutes will absolutely charge the battery enough to give it enough juice to restart it, so that doesn’t sound like it’s a ground issue, but a slow drain issue.

Following your advice and ordering an amp hound. I read a bit more on proper testing - the volt meter and pulling fuse method might work but on modern cars can have me chasing ghosts. As you said the proper way is amp hound so I'm going to go there and either find an issue or rule out slow drain. And I agree - I wasn't having any issues a while back - it could sit for a month and start every time.

 

[Zill]

Following your advice and ordering an amp hound. I read a bit more on proper testing - the volt meter and pulling fuse method might work but on modern cars can have me chasing ghosts. As you said the proper way is amp hound so I'm going to go there and either find an issue or rule out slow drain. And I agree - I wasn't having any issues a while back - it could sit for a month and start every time.

Best of luck! Hopefully you can track it down.

You don’t have anything plugged into any USB ports or anything, right?

 

[arrivederci]

Amp hound works! Although getting to the fuses in the driver and passenger footwells is such a pain. Not sure how to test the big 30a+ sized fuses under the hood...like the ones that control AHC, etc.

AM2 under the hood draws about 90 mA.
ECU B1 was at 400 mA but once the truck slept it went down to 0.
Everyone once in a while I might see lmb show up at 10 mA.

That's it. I also unplugged the lowest harness along the passenger front door sill just in case there was anything weird there. No change.

Is 100 mA total too much? Or do I need to find a way to test those bigger fuses? Like maybe sacrifice the plastic on the top of one so I can get probes from the amp hound in and then move the fuse around.

 

[Zill]

Amp hound works! Although getting to the fuses in the driver and passenger footwells is such a pain. Not sure how to test the big 30a+ sized fuses under the hood...like the ones that control AHC, etc.

AM2 under the hood draws about 90 mA.
ECU B1 was at 400 mA but once the truck slept it went down to 0.
Everyone once in a while I might see lmb show up at 10 mA.

That's it. I also unplugged the lowest harness along the passenger front doorsill just in case there was anything weird there. No change.

Is 100 mA total too much? Or do I need to find a way to test those bigger fuses? Like maybe sacrifice the plastic on the top of one so I can get probes from the amp hound in and then move the fuse around.

Isn’t AM2 the ignition switch? If so, that sounds reasonable that it’s on when you open up the door.

Most modern cars are in the 50-100 milliamp range when in sleep mode. I’m thinking there might be a larger draw somewhere.

Can you use a multimeter to test at the battery to see how much total current the car is drawing on sleep mode? I would be hesitant to use the amp hound for this test since you can fry it by having too much of a load running through it. It’s more so useful to find the pesky small draw sources on your auxiliary sources.

 

[arrivederci]

Isn’t AM2 the ignition switch? If so, that sounds reasonable that it’s on when you open up the door.

Most modern cars are in the 50-100 milliamp range when in sleep mode. I’m thinking there might be a larger draw somewhere.

Can you use a multimeter to test at the battery to see how much total current the car is drawing on sleep mode? I would be hesitant to use the amp hound for this test since you can fry it by having too much of a load running through it. It’s more so useful to find the pesky small draw sources on your auxiliary sources.

Used the multimeter and yes, found ~ 300 mA when asleep. So there is a problem - now to figure out what's causing it.

I went through and pulled the fuses under the hood that I couldn't test with the amp hound to see if there's a drop. Nothing. Unplugged both harnesses along the passenger front door sill. No different. I have a disconnect on the positive side of my winch and as a precaution disconnected the negative terminal. No different.

Then I started pulling relays and had it drop to about 210 mA when the Dome Cut relay was pulled. Hmm. A starting direction. After getting home and doing some searching on MUD, there are a few that have reported issues with their dome lights (mine work). Next weekend I'll start pulling the dome assembly apart. Might order a new relay just as a precaution too.

 

[Zill]

Used the multimeter and yes, found ~ 300 mA when asleep. So there is a problem - now to figure out what's causing it.

I went through and pulled the fuses under the hood that I couldn't test with the amp hound to see if there's a drop. Nothing. Unplugged both harnesses along the passenger front door sill. No different. I have a disconnect on the positive side of my winch and as a precaution disconnected the negative terminal. No different.

Then I started pulling relays and had it drop to about 210 mA when the Dome Cut relay was pulled. Hmm. A starting direction. After getting home and doing some searching on MUD, there are a few that have reported issues with their dome lights (mine work). Next weekend I'll start pulling the dome assembly apart. Might order a new relay just as a precaution too.

Sounds like a plan! These things can be tedious as trial and error are really your options.

 

[VDJ200 2018]

After running around this afternoon, I think the problem may have been solved (fingers crossed). Stopped by the dealership and they couldn't test my battery at the time so we set up an appointment for tomorrow. The service guy said he believed it was a battery issue because starters usually work or they don't. Next stop AutoZone for a second opinion on the state of the battery. They tested it and said the battery was fine, alternator was fine and the starter was faulty. The kid at AutoZone said it was due to having a push button starter - they just go out faster than a keyed ignition (hmm?). After running my kids around I went to the original place of purchase - O'Rileys. They also tested the battery and instantly said, the battery is bad, it has a charge but wasn't strong enough to work properly. The kid at O'Riley said he'd never seen this before and had no problems warrantying it. Swapped in a new battery, the LC started right up like normal. It ran like normal with no stuttered starts later on. Hopefully the new battery swap will do the trick.

I appreciate everyone that chimed in to help! Really appreciate it! These types of problems drive me obsessively crazy. There's a reason I buy Toyota cars - for better reliability and ease of maintenance.

Hey sounds like my issue with my 200. So the end result was the battery only? I had my battery tested last week and was told it's healthy and my alternator seems to be on the low not charging at its full capacity.

 

[RET2]

Hey sounds like my issue with my 200. So the end result was the battery only? I had my battery tested last week and was told it's healthy and my alternator seems to be on the low not charging at its full capacity.

Suggest going to alternator shop and getting their opinion. Post you quoted illustrates the variances in test results unless you trust the all knowing counter help at local parts store.

 

[tbutler]

Hey sounds like my issue with my 200. So the end result was the battery only? I had my battery tested last week and was told it's healthy and my alternator seems to be on the low not charging at its full capacity.

Correct, the only problem I was experiencing was a bad battery. Once it was swapped out, I haven't had any troubles. It wouldn't hurt to have your battery tested at a few shops and get different opinions. Or as suggested heading to an alternator shop for a better opinion.

 

[LX Cruiser]

I've swapped a Costco/Interstate battery so many times to feel pretty good about ruling out the battery. I've also replaced the windshield cowl, cleaned the sunroof drains and pulled all the door sill harnesses for inspection. The lowest one on the passenger side showed some light corrosion so I used contact cleaner and di electric grease. Yesterday I gave the terminals a good cleaning, reinstalled and coated with anti-corrosion spray. If this still persists the 90 degree bends and grounds (motor to frame) are next.

I have been chasing an electrical gremlin as well. 2009 LX with 190k miles. This issue occurred several times during a 1400-mile round trip over Thanksgiving. Right after my wife said, “we haven’t had any problems with this vehicle.” Haha

Here’s a 0:13 video. This happened to us multiple times during our trip. The headlights would brighten up as the voltage surged, and all of them ended up burning out. No high or low beams or DRLs. Radio volume would disappear but would come back when the LX was started again.


Notice voltage rising to ~17V. Every single time was within hours of precipitation or a car wash. My first thought was water ingress.

With my uncle’s limited tools, I tore the LX apart in his garage—door sill panels, kick panels, removed the wipers and the cowl—and I found no moisture whatsoever. I ran warm water and about 18” of trimmer line through both sunroof drains. Drivers side drain was slow to drain at first. It appeared to be at least partially blocked. And like you, I found some corrosion in the bottom multi-connector on the drivers side, but no moisture anywhere.

The voltage issue happened again multiple times after cleaning the sunroof drains on our way back to Tennessee.

Once we got home, I removed sill, kick, and dash panels once again and could not find any moisture. I opened up all 6 multi-connectors held by a 10mm bolt and cleaned them out with Deoxit anyway (recall that the one had some corrosion on it). While letting them dry, I went and bought a single headlight bulb at an auto parts store. Came back and put it in on the passenger side, buttoned up the kick panel wiring, reconnected the battery, and the headlight WORKS.

What in the world! So I go back and buy the other three headlights. They all work! While removing the battery to install the drivers side bulbs, I notice a lot of corrosion buildup on the battery tie down strap. I clean all of that off the top of the battery and the terminals, reinstall the battery, and now for the life of me I cannot recreate the problem.

I was planning on replacing the alternator, but I’m going to start with the battery and give the terminal ends (especially where they have that bend in them) a good inspection.

TL; DR: my voltage randomly spiked to 17V, burning my headlights out. I cleaned a bunch of kick panel connectors, cleaned the battery with a bunch of corrosion on top under the strap, bought new headlight bulbs, and I can’t recreate the problem. No codes, no other symptoms. I’m watching the voltage meter, and it stays at ~13.8-14V all the time.

 

[32cls6speedmt]

@LX Cruiser glad you got it sorted it out. Spending time troubleshooting on a trip is not fun. Happy it wasn’t the alternator.

There was a question about our batteries right before thanksgiving. It is cheap Insurance to change out every couple years. The last couple of batteries I have had corrosion after only a couple years. $115 at Costco.

 

[bloc]

I have been chasing an electrical gremlin as well. 2009 LX with 190k miles. This issue occurred several times during a 1400-mile round trip over Thanksgiving. Right after my wife said, “we haven’t had any problems with this vehicle.” Haha

Here’s a 0:13 video. This happened to us multiple times during our trip. The headlights would brighten up as the voltage surged, and all of them ended up burning out. No high or low beams or DRLs. Radio volume would disappear but would come back when the LX was started again.


Notice voltage rising to ~17V. Every single time was within hours of precipitation or a car wash. My first thought was water ingress.

With my uncle’s limited tools, I tore the LX apart in his garage—door sill panels, kick panels, removed the wipers and the cowl—and I found no moisture whatsoever. I ran warm water and about 18” of trimmer line through both sunroof drains. Drivers side drain was slow to drain at first. It appeared to be at least partially blocked. And like you, I found some corrosion in the bottom multi-connector on the drivers side, but no moisture anywhere.
View attachment 3785609
The voltage issue happened again multiple times after cleaning the sunroof drains on our way back to Tennessee.

Once we got home, I removed sill, kick, and dash panels once again and could not find any moisture. I opened up all 6 multi-connectors held by a 10mm bolt and cleaned them out with Deoxit anyway (recall that the one had some corrosion on it). While letting them dry, I went and bought a single headlight bulb at an auto parts store. Came back and put it in on the passenger side, buttoned up the kick panel wiring, reconnected the battery, and the headlight WORKS.

What in the world! So I go back and buy the other three headlights. They all work! While removing the battery to install the drivers side bulbs, I notice a lot of corrosion buildup on the battery tie down strap. I clean all of that off the top of the battery and the terminals, reinstall the battery, and now for the life of me I cannot recreate the problem.

I was planning on replacing the alternator, but I’m going to start with the battery and give the terminal ends (especially where they have that bend in them) a good inspection.

TL; DR: my voltage randomly spiked to 17V, burning my headlights out. I cleaned a bunch of kick panel connectors, cleaned the battery with a bunch of corrosion on top under the strap, bought new headlight bulbs, and I can’t recreate the problem. No codes, no other symptoms. I’m watching the voltage meter, and it stays at ~13.8-14V all the time.

You can replace both battery terminals pretty easily. 90982-06059 For the negative side and 82675-60020 for positive. The tie down strap is 74404-60150

 

[LX Cruiser]

@LX Cruiser glad you got it sorted it out. Spending time troubleshooting on a trip is not fun. Happy it wasn’t the alternator.

There was a question about our batteries right before thanksgiving. It is cheap Insurance to change out every couple years. The last couple of batteries I have had corrosion after only a couple years. $115 at Costco.

No news is good news, right? It just hasn’t happened since I cleaned up the battery and kick panel connectors. I’m going to get a new battery today anyway. The amount of corrosion I found on top of this one (hiding under the generously sized SDHQ tie down) is concerning.

You can replace both battery terminals pretty easily. 90982-06059 For the negative side and 82675-60020 for positive. The tie down strap is 74404-60150

Awesome. Thanks for the P/Ns. I have the SDHQ battery kit with the fancy aluminum tie down strap. Now that I’m here messing with it, it seems these thick SDHQ terminal blocks have put a bit of extra strain on the 90-degree joint in the battery cables. Hmmm…

I started it up with the multimeter connected the terminals to see if anything is strange.

Last night, LX off: 12.6V
Today, LX off: 12.5V
LX running: 14.1-14.2V (dash reads a hair under 14V)

Rev’d up to 2500rpm, no change in voltage.

Headed to Costco for a new battery. Will continue to monitor.

I’m also going to buy a new cowl just because.