Anyone taken a frame apart?

[Coolerman]

I would be interested in those also. I replaced the rear 'bumper' om my 71 with a 74 and also the frame braces in the rear. Used regular bolts and loctite but those look pretty good.

 

[My wife said no FJ!]

Not to bust your bubble mojojo4, I completely disagree with your comment "...they will look like a weak attempt to look factory" ...as neither option will look factory. Also, I have concerns about using "channel locks to prevent it from spinning" if anything the button head options sounds like the more viable way to tighten them down properly to secure the frame.

Your bolts do look interesting, but unless you can cut a slot, or a X on the threaded end, and be able to really "HOLD" the bolt in place with a make shift screw driver while you tighten the nut, you will never be able to tighten the nut enough.

Just to say, I am looking at options myself, and have no experience with re-riveting a frame, but I see potential flaws in your design.

 

[Coolerman]

Option 1: Use a flange bolt with a serrated head? That would prevent the head from turning once you got bit of torque on it.

Option 2: Thread the first nut on till it bottoms. Now thread another nut on just a bit, then weld it to the bolt. Use two wrenches, one to tighten the first nut and the second on the welded nut to prevent the bolt from spinning. Once tight, cut off the bolt stub with welded on nut.

 

[antFJ]

i just used 3/8ths grade 8.8 bolts and tightened down as much as possible (for the rear assembly)

honestly.. take a look at your cruisers... is every little detail stock? stock Brake MC? booster? GM power steering? Lift? wheels? rear GM disk brakes? having bolts that look like rivets or not doesn't make the rig any more stock than it probably already is.

I can see rivet looking bolts for the 4 bolts on the rear crossmember that people can actually see.. but other than that does it truely matter that much if other 'little' details that can be done aren't?

just my .02 and why it didn't bother me too much to use bolts.

 

[My wife said no FJ!]

i just used 3/8ths grade 8.8 bolts and tightened down as much as possible (for the rear assembly)

honestly.. take a look at your cruisers... is every little detail stock? stock Brake MC? booster? GM power steering? Lift? wheels? rear GM disk brakes? having bolts that look like rivets or not doesn't make the rig any more stock than it probably already is.

I can see rivet looking bolts for the 4 bolts on the rear crossmember that people can actually see.. but other than that does it truely matter that much if other 'little' details that can be done aren't?

just my .02 and why it didn't bother me too much to use bolts.

Actually, in my case, the plan is a true restoration...not a frame off, but to try and bring it back to the way it was when it/they got off the boat.

I would also like to do this with the '61, and like I said, if it made it's way to my garage, then I might be crazy enough to try and find real rivets to make sure it is absolutely as original as I can restore it.

 

[Doug_S]

Could just have it hot dipped and be done with it and probably never have to worry about it ever again.

X2. There's a place within about a two-hour drive of here that'll dip just about anything including car bodies. They do a great job and you're left with a rust resistant coating after the part is dipped. The part would, of course, still require painting. I had a motorcycle gas tank dipped and I was very impressed.

 

[majojo4]

Not to bust your bubble mojojo4, I completely disagree with your comment "...they will look like a weak attempt to look factory" ...as neither option will look factory. Also, I have concerns about using "channel locks to prevent it from spinning" if anything the button head options sounds like the more viable way to tighten them down properly to secure the frame.

Your bolts do look interesting, but unless you can cut a slot, or a X on the threaded end, and be able to really "HOLD" the bolt in place with a make shift screw driver while you tighten the nut, you will never be able to tighten the nut enough.

Just to say, I am looking at options myself, and have no experience with re-riveting a frame, but I see potential flaws in your design.

ACCTUALLY BUD IT WORKS GREAT. Remember that the bolt dosnt need much to prevent it from turning while torquing it. It doesnt want to turn completly free. Half of them that I installed didnt even need me to grab at all because of the friction. On the other half that we used the lock to hold it was little to no effort. You wouldnt want to marr up the beautiful head with a slot or "X"(that would definatly look cheesy)and you would not be able to "hold" it better this way...trying to hold it with a slot or "x" would not hold it any where near the same strength as grabbing the whole bolt with a grip that bites. Dont wory...You didnt burst a bubble...I have a finished beautiful finished product that worked.

 

[My wife said no FJ!]

ACCTUALLY BUD IT WORKS GREAT. Remember that the bolt dosnt need much to prevent it from turning while torquing it. It doesnt want to turn completly free. Half of them that I installed didnt even need me to grab at all because of the friction. On the other half that we used the lock to hold it was little to no effort. You wouldnt want to marr up the beautiful head with a slot or "X"(that would definatly look cheesy). Dont wory...You didnt burst a bubble...I have a finished beautiful product that worked.

Whoa...I've been called "bud"

The slot would have been on the other end...I did say the threaded end, but you're probably so insulted you couldn't read my post correctly.

I stand by my post...Time will tell.

 

[majojo4]

Option 1: Use a flange bolt with a serrated head? That would prevent the head from turning once you got bit of torque on it.

Option 2: Thread the first nut on till it bottoms. Now thread another nut on just a bit, then weld it to the bolt. Use two wrenches, one to tighten the first nut and the second on the welded nut to prevent the bolt from spinning. Once tight, cut off the bolt stub with welded on nut.

Another good Idea! Good one!

 

[majojo4]

Whoa...I've been called "bud"

The slot would have been on the other end...I did say the threaded end, but you're probably so insulted you couldn't read my post correctly.

I stand by my post...Time will tell.

Man you sure sound proud of yourself...relax Bud!

 

[Downey]

Gez, I didn't think my mentioning the hot rivited frame thing would be so controversial.
(a) A local forest ranger ( who lives his daily life in off road terrain ) told me that when they use Broncos and Blazers without hot rivited frames, the vehicles last about 4 years max. When they use Landcruisers with hot rivited frames, the vehicles last indefinitely. I have no reason to disbelieve this.
(b) When most off road race vehicle frames are built, they are normally tubular, solidly welded, non-flex frames. Generally two years (sometimes three years) worth of off road races has them cracked beyond retention.
(c) My guess is none of this is remotely relevant for daily drivers. My guess is you can bolt, rivit, or weld to your hearts content.

 

[My wife said no FJ!]

Man you sure sound proud of yourself...relax Bud!

I am simply interested in doing the same thing. Trust me, if I thought your idea was perfect, I'd be buy some off you. The biggest problem I see, and I am surprised no one else commented on this, is that you have removed much of the bolt head's integrity by removing as much metal as you did.


This isn't a pissing contest, just my opinion...The idea looks promising, and I am looking forward to you proving me wrong.

 

[Otterav]

Downey, this thing would just be a grocery getter, no off road. Maybe I'm wrong, but wouldn't a torqued bolt serve the same purpose as a rivot?

Nope not even close, if they(rivets and bolts) were the same, they would have used bolts and not had to worry about hot riveting and the extra work that entails using rivets vs bolts. If its a grocery getter weld it up, going up and over the mall speed bumps won't hurt a thing. It will not be the same as a stock unwelded frame but who cares? I said it before, and I will say it again, the OEM engineers had an intended rational for using their methods, and one must think carefully before changing that method for another, lest the law uf unintended consequences rear its ugly head via cracks and other not so nice results.
Jola
eric

 

[majojo4]

Nope not even close, if they(rivets and bolts) were the same, they would have used bolts and not had to worry about hot riveting and the extra work that entails using rivets vs bolts. If its a grocery getter weld it up, going up and over the mall speed bumps won't hurt a thing. It will not be the same as a stock unwelded frame but who cares? I said it before, and I will say it again, the OEM engineers had an intended rational for using their methods, and one must think carefully before changing that method for another, lest the law uf unintended consequences rear its ugly head via cracks and other not so nice results.
Jola
eric

I will have to respectfully disagree. I have consulted with engineers about this. You can get the strength from a torqued bolt as with a rivot. No...if you are a frame manufacturer such as Toyota, it is not Ideal for production line to have to do all of the little quirks to a bolt to have the same result as a rivot which is production friendly. Good luck to any one of us out there that thinks they are going to find a 40,000 pound or such hot rivot press to replicate the exact rivots. But hey...If some one does find a set up that will press rivots like that ...Let us all know!

 

[KOOTENAY KRUZER]

I agree with majojo4 - I think the main reason the manufacturer used rivets is it is a lot quicker and less labor intensive in a production line than bolts would be. There is a type of rivet called a huck rivet which uses a nut to pull the rivet into a collar and then snaps off the threaded end of the rivet when the right torque is reached. It is used in aircraft repair work where it is not possible to get at both sides of the assembly with riveting tools. It is strong enough (made from steel) that some manufacturers use it in original assembly where extra strength is required even though any threaded fastener is a lot more time consuming to install than a bucked rivet.

 

[My wife said no FJ!]

I agree with majojo4 - I think the main reason the manufacturer used rivets is it is a lot quicker and less labor intensive in a production line than bolts would be. There is a type of rivet called a huck rivet which uses a nut to pull the rivet into a collar and then snaps off the threaded end of the rivet when the right torque is reached. It is used in aircraft repair work where it is not possible to get at both sides of the assembly with riveting tools. It is strong enough (made from steel) that some manufacturers use it in original assembly where extra strength is required even though any threaded fastener is a lot more time consuming to install than a bucked rivet.

Funny thing...mojojo440 and I were just discussing this exact fastener by PM...it also has an allen key slot on the threaded end to hold the bolt in place while it is being tightened...I've been meaning to go to the local supply shop to see what sizes they have...but I dropped the idea because I don't think they have anything this big.

Good luck to any one of us out there that thinks they are going to find a 40,000 pound or such hot rivot press to replicate the exact rivots. But hey...If some one does find a set up that will press rivots like that ...Let us all know!

Admittedly over the top, but retarded as I am I am looking for just this A, for a nice resto, and B, just cause it might be fun to do...wonder if I can find a DIY unit at the local home depot tool rental counter

 

[Coolerman]

This is a moot point here in the rust belt... rust will 'weld' all the sections of the frame together anyway reducing all flex!

 

[pb4ugo]

I think there are 3 advantages for the manufacturers to use rivits. 1. speed of assembly, 2. when the rivit is pressed or however they are installed, the rivit expands to fill the diameter of the hole so there will be no slop, and 3 the rivit cant fall off. If they were to use bolts, they would have to tack the nut so the nut would not loosen or fall off, plus the heat applied by tacking the nut would effect the strength of the bolt. I opted for bolting and tacking because there are not many other alternatives out there.

#4 allow some flexibilty so the frame will not crack as much. You can always find more reasons.

I think a bolted frame w/o tacking will eventually come apart if the bolts loosen or fall off. Something the manfacturer would really regret and leave them open for lawsuits. My 2cts. Ken

 

[majojo4]

I think there are 3 advantages for the manufacturers to use rivits. 1. speed of assembly, 2. when the rivit is pressed or however they are installed, the rivit expands to fill the diameter of the hole so there will be no slop, and 3 the rivit cant fall off. If they were to use bolts, they would have to tack the nut so the nut would not loosen or fall off, plus the heat applied by tacking the nut would effect the strength of the bolt. I opted for bolting and tacking because there are not many other alternatives out there.

#4 allow some flexibilty so the frame will not crack as much. You can always find more reasons.

I think a bolted frame w/o tacking will eventually come apart if the bolts loosen or fall off. Something the manfacturer would really regret and leave them open for lawsuits. My 2cts. Ken

Your right... thats why we discusseed about welding the nut after it was torqued. Hense the phrase "not Ideal for production line to have to do all of the little quirks to a bolt". That is one of the quirks I was talking about. Here is the point....and some one can take this as a challenge and find one to prove me wrong. 40,000 pound hot rivot presses like the one that was used on our rigs originally are going to be impossible to find with access for us to use for our restoration projects. The press is not some small tool you can pick up some where. It is a large peice of equipment.

 

[majojo4]

This is a moot point here in the rust belt... rust will 'weld' all the sections of the frame together anyway reducing all flex!

SO TRUE. Ive been through that.