Another Eco Seal casualty. Is my axle shot?

[ToyotaTruck]

1997 Land Cruiser. 208k miles. Eco Seals installed around 15k miles ago. On the passenger side, I noticed leaking from the bottom of the hub and when I started tearing into it, the infamous black goo started pouring out. The eco seal ring had separated from the rubber. I pulled out the axle and noticed the burn marks (which appears to be normal from machining) and also noticed a "lip" on the axle shaft. It doesn't feel like a groove but if you look at the 2 pictures I uploaded, there is a slight difference in height from where the seal normally rubs up against (indicated by the shiny section of the shaft) to where the machined part begins. I placed a red arrow in the picture where the lip exists. Is this normal or should I play it safe and get a new axle? And if new axles are in order, should I get both or just the one? The other axle is not leaking (but am replacing the seals with Toyota ones at a minimum anyways).

Thanks
JARED

 

[Broski]

Just over drive the seal so that it rides on the good part of the axle.
You can clean the burnt part of the axle with some Emery cloth just don’t touch the good part.

 

[IdahoDoug]

I don't know anything about the ECO seals, but if it's only been 15k miles and they've been leaking, this means they've been well lubricated and did not likely do the grooving. Make sense? Also yes the burn marks are normal on the birfield - from welding.

Did you do the install? I ask because a careful installer of the seal can note where the seal lip rides on the axle and adjust how deeply the seals are installed to avoid having them ride on that deep part of the groove again. For some reason, your wear area is quite wide - did something come apart in its past, or when you pull these seals are they riding heavily on the seal? You'll know this by an eccentric wear pattern - for instance the seal will have obvious wear at the 6 0'clock position, or the 12.

If that's the case, you may be able to adjust the knuckle housing up or down (this is what determines where the axle rides in the tip of the axle housing/seal. The 80s usually/often came without any adjustment shims (used on the FJ40 for instance). If yours did and someone mixed them up or forgot to install them, your axle will not run in the center of the seal. Just mentioning all this - hopefully you have not pulled the seal and lost the evidence of an eccentric wear pattern.

Mine were ever so slightly offcenter, so I bought shims for the 80 and centered them perfectly. So, I get crazy long intervals out of my axle seals.

Anyhow, I'd consider adjusting the depth you insert the axle seals to get the lip on a larger diameter surface. Which you can check with a micrometer that's got points in the jaws to get finer information (vs flat jaws too wide for this info).

One other comment is how worn are your bronze bushings in the outer axle housing (the portion that swivels with the short section of the axle in it has a bronze bushing that wears with poor maintenance)? If that's loose, you'll hear the axle rattle up and down. In extreme cases, it will tear the seal up, contact the metal of the seal and cause metal on metal wear in the seal area.

 

[IdahoDoug]

On the above comment to clean the axle up, I'd only polish it with a cotton wheel just to ensure it's not a rough texture. Get a bit of shine is all. Emery cloth may be too abrasive.

 

[Broski]

I don't know anything about the ECO seals, but if it's only been 15k miles and they've been leaking, this means they've been well lubricated and did not likely do the grooving. Make sense? Also yes the burn marks are normal on the birfield - from welding.

Did you do the install? I ask because a careful installer of the seal can note where the seal lip rides on the axle and adjust how deeply the seals are installed to avoid having them ride on that deep part of the groove again. For some reason, your wear area is quite wide - did something come apart in its past, or when you pull these seals are they riding heavily on the seal? You'll know this by an eccentric wear pattern - for instance the seal will have obvious wear at the 6 0'clock position, or the 12.

If that's the case, you may be able to adjust the knuckle housing up or down (this is what determines where the axle rides in the tip of the axle housing/seal. The 80s usually/often came without any adjustment shims (used on the FJ40 for instance). If yours did and someone mixed them up or forgot to install them, your axle will not run in the center of the seal. Just mentioning all this - hopefully you have not pulled the seal and lost the evidence of an eccentric wear pattern.

Mine were ever so slightly offcenter, so I bought shims for the 80 and centered them perfectly. So, I get crazy long intervals out of my axle seals.

Anyhow, I'd consider adjusting the depth you insert the axle seals to get the lip on a larger diameter surface. Which you can check with a micrometer that's got points in the jaws to get finer information (vs flat jaws too wide for this info).

One other comment is how worn are your bronze bushings in the outer axle housing (the portion that swivels with the short section of the axle in it has a bronze bushing that wears with poor maintenance)? If that's loose, you'll hear the axle rattle up and down. In extreme cases, it will tear the seal up, contact the metal of the seal and cause metal on metal wear in the seal area.

You make some good points.

Eco seals are a Marlin crawler product that don’t seem to do well with the 80s
If I understand correctly the lip tore off on his
So there no way to see where it was rubbing most.
On the 80 the shim is for bearing tension and not for centering the axle.
IMO if you added shims to center the axle then the bearing tension is most likely off.
It’s not something I would suggest other members do.
As far as setting the seal there no way to see where it’s riding as you can’t see in there after the snap ring is installed and that what determines where the axle is going to ride.

 

[Kernal]

IMHO I would order new axle shafts while they're still available (at least the one with worst wear), then no question and you'll be good for another 300,000++ miles.

I know the Marlin Eco seals for the 80 Series front axles have gotten a reputation (of not working well) but FWIW and IME I installed a set 14 years and ~80,000 miles ago, still no leaks.

 

[ToyotaTruck]

Thanks everyone. Yes, I installed the eco seals and I also have an 1985 4Runner that also runs them and without issue. So it does seem to be the combo of an 80 series with the eco seals as being the problem. Maybe the full-time 4wd as some have suggested. Anyways, I am going back to Toyota seals and will give these a shot before biting the bullet and getting new axles. I also can chime in on the shims and assuming we are talking the shim(s) that is in top of the knuckle, for as long as I have owned the LC, I have been meticulous in labeling them/installing them in the exact way they were originally. I am close to getting the driver side axle out and will compare the two (which that one is not leaking).

 

[Broski]

All other Toyota solid axle trucks you can center the hub the 80 is the only one that’s is in a fixed position.
Usually 1 shim or none. Always on the top only.
The 80 is also the only one with a bigger birfild.

 

[IdahoDoug]

Broski,

I hope you're in one of those "Ya learn something new every day" moods on this. When my 80 had 90,300 miles on it back in October, 2000, I noted the front axle wear was off center while doing a front repack. As a former Lexus Product Planner, I had more resources than most, and I believe it was CDan who found and ordered the hard to find front axle shims from Toyota after I verified with a buddy at Toyota who sent me literature that they existed. Pretty sure I still have one or two around as I ordered a couple thicknesses to experiment with. This is according to my vehicle log, which starts when I bought the vehicle new at Mile 24 or something. It was actually an early production vehicle I had ordered for our Toyota fleet, knowing I was going to buy it, so it's kind of a special rig, but that's another story.

I did some measurements, tried the different shims until I'd moved the axle into the center of the axle seal, checked for bearing slack, bolted it up and posted on Mud.

At 164,020 miles on 10-16-06, I repacked the front axle again, despite experiencing zero gear oil leak (the usual hint that "it's time"), because I couldn't stand the suspense any more. Happily, the seals were riding dead center as I literally could not discern any area of wear. At the moment, I'm at about 260,000 miles with no leaking of gear oil, so the seals have lasted a whopping 100k miles due to that little experiment, and I'm very pleased. I'm not sure if I'll repack them until I get a leak, so I guess the experiment is still going on, but I'm pretty pleased with the results.

I am very diligent about topping up the birfs regularly, and keep tabs on when and how much I put in in my log. Fresh grease put into the square plug reaches the innards of the birfield within a few dozen miles, as demonstrated by another test I did using two different colors of grease to prove it to myself.

So, yes the 80 was designed not to need to have the front knuckles adjusted like the earlier versions, but if you're anal enough and willing to give things a shot, it is in fact possible to center them top to bottom and do Mister Toyoda one better on your personal rig. I'd have to check the log, but I believe mine were wearing at the 12 O'clock position.

Anyhow, this great forum is full of some great folks who clearly love what I believe is the finest LandCruiser model ever built - the "Mighty 80". And now that I've posted this, I have little doubt that tomorrow I will see that Bessie has started to dribble front gear oil through the triple sweep seals. Heh...

 

[AussieHJCruza]

From my experience, most 80s have a groove in the axle seal surface, over-driving the seal a bit will help but IMHO the most certain way is new axle shafts. Hit and miss the other way, never a repeat issue with new axles.

 

[Broski]

From my experience, most 80s have a groove in the axle seal surface, over-driving the seal a bit will help but IMHO the most certain way is new axle shafts. Hit and miss the other way, never a repeat issue with new axles.

^^^ This and what I did

 

[Broski]

Broski,

I hope you're in one of those "Ya learn something new every day" moods on this. When my 80 had 90,300 miles on it back in October, 2000, I noted the front axle wear was off center while doing a front repack. As a former Lexus Product Planner, I had more resources than most, and I believe it was CDan who found and ordered the hard to find front axle shims from Toyota after I verified with a buddy at Toyota who sent me literature that they existed. Pretty sure I still have one or two around as I ordered a couple thicknesses to experiment with. This is according to my vehicle log, which starts when I bought the vehicle new at Mile 24 or something. It was actually an early production vehicle I had ordered for our Toyota fleet, knowing I was going to buy it, so it's kind of a special rig, but that's another story.

I did some measurements, tried the different shims until I'd moved the axle into the center of the axle seal, checked for bearing slack, bolted it up and posted on Mud.

At 164,020 miles on 10-16-06, I repacked the front axle again, despite experiencing zero gear oil leak (the usual hint that "it's time"), because I couldn't stand the suspense any more. Happily, the seals were riding dead center as I literally could not discern any area of wear. At the moment, I'm at about 260,000 miles with no leaking of gear oil, so the seals have lasted a whopping 100k miles due to that little experiment, and I'm very pleased. I'm not sure if I'll repack them until I get a leak, so I guess the experiment is still going on, but I'm pretty pleased with the results.

I am very diligent about topping up the birfs regularly, and keep tabs on when and how much I put in in my log. Fresh grease put into the square plug reaches the innards of the birfield within a few dozen miles, as demonstrated by another test I did using two different colors of grease to prove it to myself.

So, yes the 80 was designed not to need to have the front knuckles adjusted like the earlier versions, but if you're anal enough and willing to give things a shot, it is in fact possible to center them top to bottom and do Mister Toyoda one better on your personal rig. I'd have to check the log, but I believe mine were wearing at the 12 O'clock position.

Anyhow, this great forum is full of some great folks who clearly love what I believe is the finest LandCruiser model ever built - the "Mighty 80". And now that I've posted this, I have little doubt that tomorrow I will see that Bessie has started to dribble front gear oil through the triple sweep seals. Heh...

I Definitely hope to keep learning tell the day I die
I'm sure there's some room for adjustment especially if your rig had a shim on top and you had a alignment tool available to you. I'm not sure a 40-60-70 series alignment tool works on a 80 series ?
But at the same time it would be only possible to adjust it down like you did. If say it was rubbing at 6 o'clock there no shims to take out at the bottom so no way to make that adjustment.
As per the FSM the 80 axle is not adjustable and most on the board do not have the same resources available to them or the alignment tool.
So I'm going to stick to my assertion that the 80 series axles are not adjustable
In closing I would say the that a OEM seal on a undamaged axle installed correctly will give many many trouble free miles with out leaking.

 

[raisinhell2]

I Definitely hope to keep learning tell the day I die
I'm sure there's some room for adjustment especially if your rig had a shim on top and you had a alignment tool available to you. I'm not sure a 40-60-70 series alignment tool works on a 80 series ?
But at the same time it would be only possible to adjust it down like you did. If say it was rubbing at 6 o'clock there no shims to take out at the bottom so no way to make that adjustment.
As per the FSM the 80 axle is not adjustable and most on the board do not have the same resources available to them or the alignment tool.
So I'm going to stick to my assertion that the 80 series axles are not adjustable
In closing I would say the that a OEM seal on a undamaged axle installed correctly will give many many trouble free miles with out leaking.

Ive never seen a SST for the 80 . The 40/60 one is too small.. I wondering where he got the SST to do the measuring.

 

[mudgudgeon]

Another option is to keep your axles and install a speedi sleeve to eliminate the worn seal surface.

OEM oil seals are cheap enough to not mess with others

 

[IdahoDoug]

Didn't use an SST, though if memory serves there was either a procedure or a tool only available to a regional office (not a dealer SST) to locate the axle. It was a manual process and yes I was fortunate seal wear was at the top as this was more easily dealt with. Eyeballed the seal and estimated how much movement I needed to center it and got lucky first try. That was on the 93. On our 97, I think the wear history has been so minor that it, also, runs seals for a very long time and I've changed them at long intervals with no gear oil leaks.

 

[jcardona1]

Eco seals are crap. So are all other aftermarket options. OEM seems to be the only one that works well.

 

[AgentOrange]

Eco seals are crap. So are all other aftermarket options. OEM seems to be the only one that works well.

Agreed. I had my 80 apart 3 weeks before Rubithon and stuffed an Eco seal on the driver's side that I had on the shelf. Guess what began puking after Mud Lake? OEM went in the weekend I got back as it needs to be ready for early August to go back and then to also run Fordyce. Wheeled around locally and OEM is perfect

 

[ToyotaTruck]

Thanks everyone. I installed Toyota seals and am in the process of putting everything back together. Hopefully that does the trick as I am not skilled or have the tools needed to re-shim and recenter the axle. I think I would just get new axles if that becomes the case.

 

[EWheeler]

From my experience, most 80s have a groove in the axle seal surface, over-driving the seal a bit will help but IMHO the most certain way is new axle shafts. Hit and miss the other way, never a repeat issue with new axles.

Anyone ever considered or actually used a speedi sleeve on the sealing surface instead of buying a whole new axle shaft? Just asking/curious. Not an 80 owner and have never researched the issue, but I do have a well used FZJ80 front axle waiting in the container for a future project..

 

[Mark W]

Anyone ever considered or actually used a speedi sleeve on the sealing surface instead of buying a whole new axle shaft? Just asking/curious. Not an 80 owner and have never researched the issue, but I do have a well used FZJ80 front axle waiting in the container for a future project..

Many times.

Mark...