Amateur Radio (HAM), Trail Coms, and Navigation Resources (1 Viewer)

[CV Kurt]

Yeah I think the majority of the attending members are hams. Most of us newer licensees just need to use it more and become comfortable with it.

I do have a question for those more experienced. I am considering a DMR capable radio...

Anytone AT-D578UV III Plus DMR Tri-band Amateur Mobile Radio

Anytone AT-D578UV III PRO VHF/UHF DMR Mobile Reservation

www.gigaparts.com

It says it is "commercial" but has an amateur mode that appears to hobble it at a lower wattage limit.

My question is whether you guys think the radio can access amateur frequencies in commercial mode with the higher wattages, or if it is one or the other only.

To be clear I have zero interest in messing with commercial of government frequencies, I just like the high output dual-band and DMR capabilities at the price point of this unit.

AFAIK, the FCC generally restricts radio products to a single license category... so you have commercial radios for commercial frequencies, amateur radios for amateur frequences, etc.. However, as some commercial frequencies are adjacent to amateur frequencies, a manufacturer can design one platform that can support both and just create two products from that platform where something, such as firmware, limits each product according to the FCC rules. And with some of these, there are software hacks that open an amateur radio up to other frequencies.

Edit: to actually answer your question, my guess is "no" (assuming no hacks). I would think that when the unit was configured for commercial use, it would be limited to frequencies allocated for commercial use. Likewise, when configured for amateur use, it would be limited to frequences allocated for amateur use. That is, regaardless of band, the radio should only be able to transmit on the frequencies of the license the user is expected to hold. Typically users that holds both commercial licenses and an amateur licenses will have separate radios for each license usage.

Note: I note that when someone uses the term "band", they may not be referring to the whole band.. but instead to particular license category's frequency allocation within that band. That is, this radio (in amateur mode) could be called a tri-band 2m / 70cm / 1.25m ameteur radio, meaning it supports amateur license frequency allocations of those bands.

In response to the DesertLake's GMRS follow-up...

For club comms, I think we should continue to use 2m HAMs for primary comms, especially between trail leader and trail sweeper.... and encourage others to get their HAM license and minimally a cheap handheld. Even if one later upgrades to a mounted mobile unit, having a handheld is quite useful (such as for spotting others).

 

[rusty_tlc]

This will muddy the waters - I just noticed there is a GMRS band that allows 50W, from 462.55 to 462.725 and 467.55 to 467.725. I guess that's what Rugged Radios has been selling? Yes licensing is required, but it's just a form. Maybe this has always been the case, but I thought they were limited to 5W.

If that's the case, and ignoring that some of us are already invested in HAM, which makes more long term sense?

One word "repeaters" . AFAIK there are no GMRS repeaters.

 

[Tony_Farson]

Yeah club coms should be ham frequencies, typically 2M (146.460/146.052). 146.460 is used for lots of things "offroad" from what I've been reading and I believe there is one state (Utah?) that restricts that frequency. So I like having the backup frequency.

I want to find a mobile radio that has waterfall capabilities on the display. I don't know if any do... still researching.

 

[rusty_tlc]

Yeah club coms should be ham frequencies, typically 2M (146.460/146.052). 146.460 is used for lots of things "offroad" from what I've been reading and I believe there is one state (Utah?) that restricts that frequency. So I like having the backup frequency.

I want to find a mobile radio that has waterfall capabilities on the display. I don't know if any do... still researching.

AFAIK the FCC is the only agency that can allocate or restrict frequencies. Still not a bad plan to have a back up frequency if there is a lot of traffic on 146.460.

 

[CV Kurt]

Yeah club coms should be ham frequencies, typically 2M (146.460/146.052). 146.460 is used for lots of things "offroad" from what I've been reading and I believe there is one state (Utah?) that restricts that frequency. So I like having the backup frequency.

I want to find a mobile radio that has waterfall capabilities on the display. I don't know if any do... still researching.

As Rusty notes, the FCC allocates the frequency ranges available for amateur use.

However, beyond that, there are "band plans" which are established by the amateur community (namely the ARRL and its chapters) and these should be respected. In certain cases, going against the "band plan" can get you trouble with the FCC under various rules, such as interfering with a repeater or other dedicated service or station. Here in Northwestern Nevada, we have the Northwestern Nevada Band Plans coordinated by the Sierra Nevada Amateur Radio Society. SNARS coordinates with those coordinates with neighboring community groups to ensure the plan is sensible regionally and even nationally.
I suspect the Utah info you heard was just the (or a) Utah band plan.

I found a good article which provides some general info on how to pick your frequency: Choose Your 2m Frequency Wisely - The KØNR Radio Site - https://www.k0nr.com/wordpress/my-articles/2m-frequency/

Those who picked 146.46 for club trail comms made a good choice as this frequency fits not only the NW NV band plan but the N CA band plan.
It, of course, is not reserved solely for our use... so if we find other ham operators are using it... we should move to another frequency.

146.052 looks like a typo to me as its not on a 5Khz spacing. Did you mean 146.520? This is the "national calling frequency". This is a fine frequency to use to arrange what frequency to move to... but not so great to say on for trail comms.

I recommend that, in the case 146.46 is busy... we relocate to 147.48. And if that's busy, to 146.52 to discuss what frequency to move to. Why 147.48? Like 146.46, it fits both the NW NV and N CA band plans. Why not have a third pre-arranged choice? Because there's only two frequencies (146.46 and 147.48) that meet both NW NV and N CA band plans for FM Simplex ad-hoc use, so what to move to from 146.52 becomes a bit more geographically dependent.

 

[DesertLake]

One word "repeaters" . AFAIK there are no GMRS repeaters

So far I haven't found repeaters useful, in that there aren't any where I'd need them anyway.
That said, it looks like GMRS repeaters are out there.

myGMRS.com - GMRS Repeater Directory

myGMRS.com is a General Mobile Radio Service community where users can search and submit repeaters in their area.

mygmrs.com

Not that I want to add yet another radio to my truck. But if GMRS capability is closing on HAM capability, without the inconvenience of exams and all that, I suspect the offroad crowd land on GMRS eventually.

I recommend that, in the case 146.46 is busy... we relocate to 147.48. And if that's busy, to 146.52 to discuss what frequency to move to. Why 147.48? Like 146.46, it fits both the NW NV and N CA band plans. Why not have a third pre-arranged choice? Because there's only two frequencies (146.46 and 147.48) that meet both NW NV and N CA band plans for FM Simplex ad-hoc use, so what to move to from 146.52 becomes a bit more geographically dependent.

Kurt where ya been? I had just asked if anyone had heard from you.

Good plan to put the alternate in memory, though FWIW I have only heard any other traffic on 146.46 a handful of times and always in the Reno/Carson area.

 

[CV Kurt]

Kurt where ya been? I had just asked if anyone had heard from you.

I got sucked into too much work this winter, especially given I'm suppose to be semi-retired. But now I'm back on my non-winter schedule... minimal work (~1-2 days a week). I've got some fun trips in the works for this summer. I'll post up here and there about these as I get things sorted.

Back to comms: Garmin InReach and other 2-way sat messaging devices are quite handy. Recommend having at least one such device in every convoy. Best if both the trailer leader and trail sweep (aka drag) vehicles have them. I got mine to give my wife peace of mind. She always knows where to find my carcass.

 

[Tony_Farson]

National cal freg is 146.520 and ARRL recommends folks monitor it at the top of the hour while in the backcountry. I have done this quite a few times and called CQ but never get a response.

Anyone else ever had any luck on that frequency?

I got sucked into too much work this winter, especially given I'm suppose to be semi-retired. But now I'm back on my non-winter schedule... minimal work (~1-2 days a week). I've got some fun trips in the works for this summer. I'll post up here and there about these as I get things sorted.

Back to comms: Garmin InReach and other 2-way sat messaging devices are quite handy. Recommend having at least one such device in every convoy. Best if both the trailer leader and trail sweep (aka drag) vehicles have them. I got mine to give my wife peace of mind. She always knows where to find my carcass.

I agree! I have a Garmin GPSMaps w/InReach and make sure someone in civilization is keeping an eye out for messages from me in the event of an emergency. I think every rig should have one.

 

[CV Kurt]

National cal freg is 146.520 and ARRL recommends folks monitor it at the top of the hour while in the backcountry. I have done this quite a few times and called CQ but never get a response.

I have two dual transceiver radios in my rig, one mobile, one handy. Typically the mobile primary radio scans my presets, which include both the 2m and 70cm national call frequencies. The secondary I dedicate to APRS. My handy is typically off. It's primary is set to national call, and the secondary is APRS as well.

When I'm on trail, I fix the primary to the trail frequency. I turn on mobile, set the primary to a local repeater and the secondary to the trail frequency. This makes the handie handy for spotting and other out of the cab use while letting me continually monitor the local repeater. But as I don't scan while on trail, I wouldn't pick up a call on any of national frequencies. I find it more useful to monitor a local repeater than a national call frequency.

Anyone else ever had any luck on that frequency?

When my mobile is scanning, I occasionally pick one up... I typically don't make calls on the national calling frequency myself, as APRS notifies me of repeaters in range. I'd only call out on national call if I couldn't hit a repeater.

I agree! I have a Garmin GPSMaps w/InReach and make sure someone in civilization is keeping an eye out for messages from me in the event of an emergency. I think every rig should have one.
View attachment 2624820

I use Garmin Explore (online) to plan out my trips... everything auto syncs Garmin app on the iPhone/iPad app. I also export it for loading into various other desktop, web, and mobile apps.

 

[Tony_Farson]

I have two dual transceiver radios in my rig, one mobile, one handy. Typically the mobile primary radio scans my presets, which include both the 2m and 70cm national call frequencies. The secondary I dedicate to APRS. My handy is typically off. It's primary is set to national call, and the secondary is APRS as well.

When I'm on trail, I fix the primary to the trail frequency. I turn on mobile, set the primary to a local repeater and the secondary to the trail frequency. This gives me makes the handie handy for spotting and other out of the cab use while letting me continuely monitor the local repeater. But as I don't scan while on trail, I wouldn't pick up a call.


When my mobile is scanning, I occasionally pick one up... I typically don't make calls on the national calling frequency myself, as APRS notifies me of repeaters in range. I'd only call out on national call if I couldn't hit a repeater.

I use Garmin Explore (online) to plan out my trips... everything auto syncs Garmin app on the iPhone/iPad app. I also export it for loading into various other desktop, web, and mobile apps.

I have plaid with the tool, but Gaia is so much better imo. The only reason I won't buy an Overlander unit from them.

 

[CV Kurt]

I have plaid with the tool, but Gaia is so much better imo. The only reason I won't buy an Overlander unit from them.

I use Gaia as well.

The key reason I use the Garmin apps is that Garmin tracking and messaging is tied into them... so by using it, I have a better idea of what my wife will see when she checks up on me.

 

[MountNGoat]

Yeah club coms should be ham frequencies, typically 2M (146.460/146.052). 146.460 is used for lots of things "offroad" from what I've been reading and I believe there is one state (Utah?) that restricts that frequency. So I like having the backup frequency.

I want to find a mobile radio that has waterfall capabilities on the display. I don't know if any do... still researching.

@Tony_Farson, this is the radio I'm running:

Welcome to Yaesu.com

It's both digital and analog, has cross-band repeat (even though it's not listed in the manual), and has a "band scope" display, which I'm not sure if that's the same as the "waterfall" you're looking for:

And from the manual:

It's dual band, 50W max. If you have the micro SD card inserted you can write your gps tracks to it with very good resolution.

Repeaters are also important to me, particularly on the Rubicon but elsewhere, too. I've tried to find an program as many as I can from Hwy 80 south for NV and UT, not to mention the Sierra repeaters along the 395 corridor and then the west side as well. Being able to do that with the software lets me keep the channel names the same between the mobile and dual band handy and 2m handy.

 

[Tony_Farson]

@Tony_Farson, this is the radio I'm running:

Welcome to Yaesu.com

It's both digital and analog, has cross-band repeat (even though it's not listed in the manual), and has a "band scope" display, which I'm not sure if that's the same as the "waterfall" you're looking for:

View attachment 2624937

And from the manual:

View attachment 2624938

It's dual band, 50W max. If you have the micro SD card inserted you can write your gps tracks to it with very good resolution.

Repeaters are also important to me, particularly on the Rubicon but elsewhere, too. I've tried to find an program as many as I can from Hwy 80 south for NV and UT, not to mention the Sierra repeaters along the 395 corridor and then the west side as well. Being able to do that with the software lets me keep the channel names the same between the mobile and dual band handy and 2m handy.

Sweet! I have this radio on a short list of contenders already. "waterfall" displays give you a visual representation if there's modulation on frequencies so you know whether they are in use or active.

Obviously more helpful in a stationary setup, but handy nonetheless.

 

[CV Kurt]

@MountNGoat I run a FTM-400DR as well. Great radio. I used the C4FM only a bit as C4FM repeaters are few and far between. There use to be an experimental one in the Reno area but seems SNARS decided to go with DMR instead. Their current repeater page doesn't list any C4FM repeaters. Here a link to an article that discusses C4FM vs DMR: DMR vs. C4FM: Choosing between two increasingly popular digital radio platforms - https://n2rac.com/dmr-vs-yaesu-c4fm-two-increasingly-popular-digital-radio-platforms-bc1cdce852df

Today if I were going to buy a 2m/70cm dual band/dual transceiver radio with APRS capabilities, I might opt for the FTM-320DR. It's basically the same as the FTM-400DR but without the touch screen (which isn't all the good on the 400)... but has builtin bluetooth and a few other features at a bit cheaper price point. The lack of C4FM repeaters doesn't concern me, I'm more after the solid APRS support.

But gIven the lack of C4FM repeaters in the Reno area, if interested in digital FM radio, folks are probably better off with a good DMR. I cannot offer any specific DMR radio recommendation as I don't have any experience with them... suggest folks ask about them on the IH8MUD ham forum or on the SNARS noon net (Nets - Sierra Nevada Amateur Radio Society, Inc - https://snars.org/repeaters/nets/).

 

[MountNGoat]

Sweet! I have this radio on a short list of contenders already. "waterfall" displays give you a visual representation if there's modulation on frequencies so you know whether they are in use or active.

View attachment 2624986

Obviously more helpful in a stationary setup, but handy nonetheless.

Yeah the band scope is supposed to give you similar info, just never used it.

 

[MountNGoat]

@MountNGoat I run a FTM-400DR as well. Great radio. I used the C4FM only a bit as C4FM repeaters are few and far between. There use to be an experimental one in the Reno area but seems SNARS decided to go with DMR instead. Their current repeater page doesn't list any C4FM repeaters. Here a link to an article that discusses C4FM vs DMR: DMR vs. C4FM: Choosing between two increasingly popular digital radio platforms - https://n2rac.com/dmr-vs-yaesu-c4fm-two-increasingly-popular-digital-radio-platforms-bc1cdce852df

Today if I were going to buy a 2m/70cm dual band/dual transceiver radio with APRS capabilities, I might opt for the FTM-320DR. It's basically the same as the FTM-400DR but without the touch screen (which isn't all the good on the 400)... but has builtin bluetooth and a few other features at a bit cheaper price point. The lack of C4FM repeaters doesn't concern me, I'm more after the solid APRS support.

But gIven the lack of C4FM repeaters in the Reno area, if interested in digital FM radio, folks are probably better off with a good DMR. I cannot offer any specific DMR radio recommendation as I don't have any experience with them... suggest folks ask about them on the IH8MUD ham forum or on the SNARS noon net (Nets - Sierra Nevada Amateur Radio Society, Inc - https://snars.org/repeaters/nets/).

Got it - thanks for the Digital clarification. Does the 3200DR have cross-band repeat? I find that feature useful on the 400 (although it is not discussed anywhere in the user manual). One thing about the touch screen of the 400 vs the typical screen with side buttons on normal Yaesu radios, for someone like me that relatively new to ham and doesn't spend a lot of time on the radio, I find I can recall how to get around much easier on the 400 screen than a typical setup. I also like being able to quickly toggle through the clock and altitude screens, and if and when I get APRS figured out having the compass and direction vectors to another unit seems like it could be useful for linking up 'out there'.

 

[CV Kurt]

Got it - thanks for the Digital clarification. Does the 3200DR have cross-band repeat? I find that feature useful on the 400 (although it is not discussed anywhere in the user manual). One thing about the touch screen of the 400 vs the typical screen with side buttons on normal Yaesu radios, for someone like me that relatively new to ham and doesn't spend a lot of time on the radio, I find I can recall how to get around much easier on the 400 screen than a typical setup. I also like being able to quickly toggle through the clock and altitude screens, and if and when I get APRS figured out having the compass and direction vectors to another unit seems like it could be useful for linking up 'out there'.

so yes.

I've actually never used the feature on my FTM-400...

Found a decent article to that might help others here understand what we're talking about: Crossband Repeater Operation - https://www.qsl.net/wb3gck/cbr.htm

 

[Tony_Farson]

so yes.

I've actually never used the feature on my FTM-400...

Found a decent article to that might help others here understand what we're talking about: Crossband Repeater Operation - https://www.qsl.net/wb3gck/cbr.htm

I like Eric's channel. Good content explained so an idiot like me can sorta understand it.

 

[rusty_tlc]

Crossband repeat is a touchy subject in the HAM world. There has been a lot of debate about if it is or isn't legal.

I have found it useful when I got to camp early and wanted to hike. I set up my cross band radio with whatever frequency the group was using then cross banded to my HT. The thing to watch is not to interfere with local repeaters or commonly used frequencies on the repeated (HT in this example) side.

 

[rusty_tlc]

National cal freg is 146.520 and ARRL recommends folks monitor it at the top of the hour while in the backcountry. I have done this quite a few times and called CQ but never get a response.

Anyone else ever had any luck on that frequency?

<snip>

I have made a few CQ calls while traveling, usually just to get local information or do a radio check. You would probably get a response anywhere on an interstate or in the midwest. Not so much in say North Central Nevada. As I recall Cruiserdrew and a few others made some contacts in Death Valley on the Nat Call freq. Could be more people listening in that area?