"After visiting EJS 2005" by Bill Burke (1 Viewer)

[hatfieldcb]

I'm not quite sure I should say this, but I seem to recall at CM04 a run up Onion Creek (I think this was it), literally up the creek. There were signs posted to stay out of the creek bed, and there were campers along the creek who were quite angry. This was not a good example to set, nor was it a smart PR move. Permit or not, the behavior was not acceptable.

I would like to believe that TLCA is as honorable as its leadership portrays, but I suspect the same environmentally abusive mentality does exist, and in greater numbers than will be admited. I hope the planners at CM05 don't make the same mistake again this year.

This is true. I was the trail leader. We kept the run as advertised. Our BLM permit grandfathered us in for it. We were as shocked as anyone, but we decided to proceed with it last year. I was mortified to confront the people on the river part of the trail, but we were allowed by our BLM permit. Needless to say, it's not part of our event this year, nor will it be in the future.

Hey, we made an on-the-spot decision to go ahead with our planned run. Didn't want to disappoint our paying customers. Water under the bridge. It won't happen again!

Chris

 

[65swb45]

I've been mulling this thread over for a couple of weeks now, and I think the next logical question here is to ask yourself, 'how far would YOU go to be part of the solution, rather than part of the problem?

First off, since I am 6'3 and 200# plus, I have a certain comfort level in approaching a total stranger about trail etiquette that others might not. That said, I would still prolly approach my run leader about a group intervention, as there is something in numbers that helps drive a point home. On the other hand, I can think of times where a group confrontation just makes the infringer more defensive, not more cooperative. Hmmm

Next question, if you had a camera with you, and you could take pictures, would you? Closeups with licence plate numbers? Who would you give them too?
I personally would have NO PROBLEM with letting the infringer know that 'evidence'was being collected, but I would have to think very hard about turning it over to the authorities. I say that because as part of the public record, I could just see the eco-nazis using my jpegs to lock me out of my own public lands.

Would you consider disabling the vehicle in question? I have heard of an instance or two where an asshat was so drunk that someone had the sense to take the guy's keys away. This definitely requires a group effort to accomplish safely. You basically tell the guy the keys will be turned in to the local authorities as a simple lost and found, and that he better be sober when he goes in to pick them up!


Where do you stand?

 

[timbercruiser]

I like to approach these situations in a slow, calm-yet firm-manner. Some go charging in and put the offender on the defensive ( I don't think that Mark is charging in).

The yahoo is already showing aggressive behavior by driving like an idiot, I'm not going to get in a pissing match with him right off the bat. I'm going to ask him to think about the larger picture.
If it gets to the point where he needs an attitude adjustment, I'll need backup-as in group intervention.

Dave (Dr. Phil wannabe)

 

[sanjuancruiser]

Bringing this back up.

I think these situatoins need to be handled very carefully. People will react as they are confronted. Your calm they're calm and something gets resolved -hopefully... I recently got my buddies to wear avalanche beacons for snowmobiling through alot of pulling teeth over the past snow season. They fought me saying theyed done without this far and wern't going to ride where there were avalanches. I told them it didn't matter and They needed to wear them for thier friends that do have them so they could find them. Not to save thier asses but thier friends. Low and behold this winter my good buddy was buried to his shoulders in a slide -almost lost him. He came and told me he was glad I stood my ground and thanked me.

Point is if you take the time to enlighten people they'll listen and make the change. Be creative persistent, and patient and over time you will see a change.

My Looong rant...

 

[expeditionswest]

I have found the most effective method is to pull the individual aside (out of earshot of others), and reason with them based on facts, like "we need to preserve the trails for future generations" and lets set a good example for the others here" Have some Tread Lightly brochures along to hand out, that way they can check it out in more detail later.

I have never found a group confrontation to end in a positive result. It may stop the behavior, but leaves the recipient feeling like an outsider. The same principles used in business management should be used on the trail (i.e.- lead by example, set expectation before the trail run starts, communicate clearly, etc.)

Anyone who needs more info on Tread Lightly material or training, please PM me. I will try to get you what you need

 

[sanjuancruiser]

x-actly.

 

[calamaridog]

You certainly CAN make a difference. In my club, all the "cool" guys, who have been around for a while, encourage the active participation of the new, younger members in some sort of Land Access group such as BRC or Cal4wd.

In other words, it is the thing to do, if you want to be "cool"

 

[pappy]

Next question, if you had a camera with you, and you could take pictures, would you? Closeups with licence plate numbers? Who would you give them too?
I personally would have NO PROBLEM with letting the infringer know that 'evidence'was being collected, but I would have to think very hard about turning it over to the authorities. I say that because as part of the public record, I could just see the eco-nazis using my jpegs to lock me out of my own public lands.

This actually happened on E-Hill during CM05. Near the confluence overlook there was a Jeep and a Tacoma that had driven off the trail onto what was clearly, and obviously, CBC. Neil stopped and took some pics which I guess excited the driver of the Jeep. I was several vehicles back and only know we were stopped for several minutes while Neil and the guy had a chat.

One of the FJ40 drivers in the group, David "I don't need no stinkin' lock'a", works for the Forest Service and indicated that sending in the pics could result in some action on the part of the Park Service. Neil, send in those pics and send the message. I did notice that Tread Lightly materials were given out in our packets. It might be a good use of them to hand them out when we see folks doing something stupid.

 

[sanjuancruiser]

I did notice that Tread Lightly materials were given out in our packets. It might be a good use of them to hand them out when we see folks doing something stupid.

Maybe keep a stack int the rig

 

[cruiseroutfit]

Great revival...

A few notes:

I carry TL, Usa-All, U4WDA, and USFS/BLM material in both of my wheelers, I don't hesitate to stop people and give them the info, regardless of their activities.

I actively confront violators, not violently, but I am more than happy to take a picture of them and send it to the governing agency. They are usually more than happy to contact the perp and make some threats (if not more.)

Utah has an awesome group called the Trail Patrol, a charter organization to patrol the trails in conjunction with the BLM/USFS/State Parks, etc. I have spent holiday weekends working with the USFS & TP handing out info and chatting with violators. Actually alot of fun and rewarding in the fact that I may be able to recreate in these same places with my childred (I am still a kid myself )

Our state 4 wheel drive association (U4WDA) had some business cards made that we can hand out and leave on windsheilds. Basically gives them a quick message, a way to contact us, and a freindly reminder that they are being watched.

The card reads

Love the outdoors?
Want to help keep your access to public lands open for your kids?
Contact U4WDA and find out how.
(also included is our logo & contact info. I try and pass out a couple a week.)

Mabey you guys could get something similar in your local area, mabey get a shop to sponsor it with their logo on the back, etc?


Everyone needs to do their part

 

[sanjuancruiser]

That's a good idea. The problem seems to be mostly lack of education w/regards to taking care of our trails. Giving people a way to learn more ad encouragement could go a long way.

 

[65swb45]

Let's try it! I posted on the Rubithon thread on Pirate a request for a volunteer to hand out Tread Lightly literature Memorial Weekend at Little Sluice.

How do think that will go over?

 

[desertdude]

This is a great thread - Why? because of the dialog back and forth. Ideas and solutions.

Anything that can spread awareness will help. At every group event there needs to be a driver meeting and at the meeting is where the education should be offered as well. The more times reminders are made the better the chances of a ground swell of interest.

 

[cruzila]

I've been mulling this thread over for a couple of weeks now, and I think the next logical question here is to ask yourself, 'how far would YOU go to be part of the solution, rather than part of the problem?

First off, since I am 6'3 and 200# plus, I have a certain comfort level in approaching a total stranger about trail etiquette that others might not. That said, I would still prolly approach my run leader about a group intervention, as there is something in numbers that helps drive a point home. On the other hand, I can think of times where a group confrontation just makes the infringer more defensive, not more cooperative. Hmmm

Next question, if you had a camera with you, and you could take pictures, would you? Closeups with licence plate numbers? Who would you give them too?
I personally would have NO PROBLEM with letting the infringer know that 'evidence'was being collected, but I would have to think very hard about turning it over to the authorities. I say that because as part of the public record, I could just see the eco-nazis using my jpegs to lock me out of my own public lands.

Would you consider disabling the vehicle in question? I have heard of an instance or two where an asshat was so drunk that someone had the sense to take the guy's keys away. This definitely requires a group effort to accomplish safely. You basically tell the guy the keys will be turned in to the local authorities as a simple lost and found, and that he better be sober when he goes in to pick them up!


Where do you stand?

I would discourage physical confrontations. Unless you know them.

Actually, as far as the Rubicon is concerned, Law Enforcement by way of citizen type arrest has been going on for about two years now. I know of a few cases that have gone to court. The concept of turning in a fellow wheeler has been holding many back I am sure, but now more than ever pictures are being taken and turned over to authorities with eyewitness accounts.

If you do want to turn in someone for off trail type violations get the liscence, pictues, and line up your witnesses. If it is Rubicon related, you can forward to me and I will get it to the right agency. The El Dorado FS is willing to prosecute in Federal court and is even willing to take county violations that way too. Bigger fines and easier to convict.

Scott Johnston

 

[timbercruiser]

This is a great thread - Why? because of the dialog back and forth. Ideas and solutions.

Anything that can spread awareness will help. At every group event there needs to be a driver meeting and at the meeting is where the education should be offered as well. The more times reminders are made the better the chances of a ground swell of interest.

He's right. Our club hosts an event every year, and our driver's meeting includes telling people to wheel right. We walk the walk, too, by driving the right way at each obstacle!