A Word of Warning to all 200 series Owners! Please Read!

[dtt255]

Well as some of you may know I went on to the Dirty Toy School this weekend.

In another post I will go into how that went (BTW it was great!)

On Saturday night I was driving back with my Brother-In-Law and we were on a back road coming from Borrego Springs in Southern California.

Well the road had alot of up and downs but they also were very uneven. Meaning the my 200 had to deal with a bit more ROLL left and right then I was used to feeling.

Well I after about 3-4 min of severe rolling I slowed down and stopped. We looked at each other and were pretty scared.

He builds and races Baja buggies and he mentioned that what we were experiencing was nothing normal. I agreed.

My LC always had SOME roll with it but I assumed it was just because it was a 'higher' center of gravity then a normal car.

Well I decided that I was going to get it looked at by Toyota during the week.

The rest of the ride home and the weekend we could not stop talking about it.

We eliminated the new coilovers because them mainly deal with up and down motion, not side to side motion.

The only things that made any sense was the KDSS system.

Remembering the KDSS issue we had when installing the coilovers I decided that there must be an error in the system somewhere. Then it dawned on me. Toyota supposedly 'fixed' the issue I was having before. hmmmm what the hell did they do?!?!

All day at work today I could not get it out of my mind. So I did a search and found the little tech bulletin given out to some spring manufactures and dealers telling how to tighten and loosen the two KDSS valves.

When I got home I put some blocks under the tires and got under the LC with a 5mm allen wrench. I could not believe it.....

THEY LEFT THE DAMN VALVES OPENED!!

FULLY OPEN!!

This could have EASILY killed me!

So to cut this short, please check those valves if ANYONE touches your suspension....ANYONE!

 

[Michael Hanson]

The dealers need fully trained mechnics.At the dealership I buy parts at I do not think they have one good fully trained mechnic left.

 

[arbforlc200]

unbelievable! You both could have been killed needlessly! Need a lawyer?

 

[JBHorne]

Wow, and you just now noticed this?

 

[Jonty]

There seem to be fewer and fewer good mechanics out there, I think they just train kids to read fault codes and replace parts......

 

[sleeoffroad]

unbelievable! You both could have been killed needlessly! Need a lawyer?

You got to be kidding me right? Yes, it was dangerous, but this is someone that willingly modified a stock suspension on a vehicle and then drove it 4-5 months (not sure how long since he installed it) and never noticed the swaybars were not doing their work and now you want to sue someone?

One should take personal responsibility somewhere for what you do to your vehicle. Yes, it is not right that the dealer that tried to fix the vehicle (after the customer made it inoperable due to modifications) made a mistake but it is hardly a law suit.

Who are you going to sue? The vehicle is highly modified with additional weight added to it. Toyota and the dealer can claim the vehicle will function ok even with KDSS disabled in stock form.

Sorry, off my soap box, but not everything warrants.

 

[dtt255]

Wow, and you just now noticed this?

Well I noticed some swaying.....but like I mentioned, coming from a car background, I didn't know how much was too much.

Also it was never as bad as it was this trip. Plus with my brothers experience with off road vehicles, he was alot more aware of what was right and wrong.

Of course at this point I now feel very stupid for not noticing it as much as I should have.

 

[dtt255]

You got to be kidding me right? Yes, it was dangerous, but this is someone that willingly modified a stock suspension on a vehicle and then drove it 4-5 months (not sure how long since he installed it) and never noticed the swaybars were not doing their work and now you want to sue someone?

One should take personal responsibility somewhere for what you do to your vehicle. Yes, it is not right that the dealer that tried to fix the vehicle (after the customer made it inoperable due to modifications) made a mistake but it is hardly a law suit.

Who are you going to sue? The vehicle is highly modified with additional weight added to it. Toyota and the dealer can claim the vehicle will function ok even with KDSS disabled in stock form.

Sorry, off my soap box, but not everything warrants.

Trust me a lawyer was not on my speed dial

Yes I should have noticed it before. That was my mistake.

I do believe that I have some responsibility in this situation also. I should have double checked toyota's work and know better then to expect them to know EXACTLY what they were doing

I don't think suing them is the answer, but a very loud explanation to the service manager may be in order.

 

[arbforlc200]

yes...Toyota as an entity can say that dtt has committed an intentional tort against its product i.e. the LC. However, when Mr. consumer visits his authorized dealer and he is willing to pay big bucks for expected work to be performed and the dealer is awared and willing to mods OEM hardware, and then it is not performed to SAFETY standards...it is called breach of contract. It gets even more sticky when someone died/injured when workmanship failed to perform as promised. In omnibus, no entiy can completely indemnify itself from loss or damage. So...beaware if you are also a second tier vendor/supplier.

On a personal note, I agreed with SLee one thing....I will not alter my LC200 since this may reconfigure the intended design of the LC and ultimately resulted in a less safe SUV.

 

[dtt255]

Igghfffff

 

[sleeoffroad]

yes...Toyota as an entity can say that dtt has committed an intentional tort against its product i.e. the LC. However, when Mr. consumer visits his authorized dealer and he is willing to pay big bucks for expected work to be performed and the dealer is awared and willing to mods OEM hardware, and then it is not performed to SAFETY standards...it is called breach of contract. It gets even more sticky when someone died/injured when workmanship failed to perform as promised. In omnibus, no entiy can completely indemnify itself from loss or damage. So...beaware if you are also a second tier vendor/supplier.

On a personal note, I agreed with SLee one thing....I will not alter my LC200 since this may reconfigure the intended design of the LC and ultimately resulted in a less safe SUV.

I understand your position, but sorry I am just from a school where I think there should be some person responsibility. In our business we do have all the necessary insurance in place (that cost a fortune) and do make sure we eliminate these kinds of mistakes, however I would say a used that drives a vehicle for 4 months without noticing this would be party responsible, especially in a case like this where the vehicle is modifying.

Your post re: needing a lawyer and he should sue just rubs me the wrong way. Yes, as a supplier we have to very careful with what we do, but actions like these are driving small businesses to close. We pay 3% of our annual gross sales in product liability and/or competed operations insurance. That is a lot. Especially considering that 70% of our business is reselling parts from other manufacturers, that also carry insurance. All this to protect ourself against suits were we will be names, irrespective of our involvement or not.

The climate has changed so much that small business just can't afford these kinds of things anymore, so they either ignore them, or they go out of business, which in the long term is not good for the economy and the future of the country.

Yes, you can make a very strong case on legal grounds, and I am not a lawyer, and I understand that Toyota was at fault here, but no-one died, so can't one be rational and have a talk with them and make sure it does not happen again.

 

[sleeoffroad]

I do believe that I have some responsibility in this situation also. I should have double checked toyota's work and know better then to expect them to know EXACTLY what they were doing

I don't think suing them is the answer, but a very loud explanation to the service manager may be in order.

Yes, you should talk to them. Also, to be fair one can not expect every single technician at Toyota to be trained on the KDSS system on the 200 series. That is just not practical based on how many technicians will every see a 200, much less work on it.

What one should expect is for the dealer to have at least ONE tech dedicated to it and know the system. Have him then deal with these trucks when they come in.

 

[sleeoffroad]

Just for the record this is what dtt255 initially posted re the KDSS fix after the truck leaned and he took it to the dealer.

I am very lucky that I got a service guy and head tech who used to work at Lexus and have dealt with the AHC on the lexus vehicles and was familiar with these types of issues.

Well they hooked up the computer thingy to my LC and had the computer initiate a re-calibration of the suspension system and it freed everything up and we were all good!
Didn't cost me a thing and only took about an hour!

What exactly caused it, I don't know. I think with us pulling and stepping on the arms, etc. trying to free everything up, that we triggered something.

From this it is not even apparent that they loosened anything.

Just to be clear, I am not knocking dtt255 and I think he early work on the 200 will eventually help a lot of people and I also think it was the intent of this thread.

 

[arbforlc200]

Slee - I do see your point and feel for small business. If you remembered from his original post.....he stated that he could have died. Not being there, I see it as a near miss-hap that could have easily killed the driver+ passenger if the SUV rolled. Consumer Protection Law has come a long way and it is extremely nebulous and now it is considered an expertise field in itself. BTW, everyone will say now that a lawyer would be the last thing on his/her mind....until an injury or death occurs.....lawyers phone will be ringing off the hook. It's TRUE!

I was just raising awareness to everyone...both to consumers and distributors. I love the way your products look and from web reading....your reputation is solid. Perhaps I will be ordering a pair of sliders from you..but will not heavily mod my LC for simple reason that I stated earlier. More power to others who are willing to alter their vehicles.

 

[dtt255]

Ok lets put this bed already.

I mentioned the information so that everyone would know to check their valves anytime ANYONE did any suspension work.

My intention was not to start a BASH toyota thread.

 

[Michael Hanson]

Personal responsibility needs to start with the shop that is getting paid to do the work.If you can not except the risks but only the money ,that unethical.

 

[JBHorne]

Ok lets put this bed already.

I mentioned the information so that everyone would know to check their valves anytime ANYONE did any suspension work.

My intention was not to start a BASH toyota thread.

+1

As much as I love law and legal debates, there were no damages here so let's just end it already.

DTT is safe and that's all that matters.

 

[timmer]

I think its so cool how after just a short period of time driving off road a persons awareness of his her vehicles handleing is so greatly enhanced.

timmer

 

[spressomon]

This experience does bring up a point regarding other countries not allowing either mods to a vehicle or mods performed by others that are not "registered/approved" installers/modders.

Its probably a good thing to NOT take for granted given how easy most mods are to perform by anyone with a few hand tools and written instructions. Handling/safety issues abound with improperly modded rigs and/or improperly installed equipment.

On the extreme we have all seen too many rigs (not necessarily Toyotas ) lifted WAY too high knowing the safe handling (normal and emergency situations) aspects of the highly altered vehicle have been thrown to the wind...

Ok...hyjack over...now you can return to your regularly scheduled program

 

[dtt255]

I agree with everything said here, but I do think the fact that is being forgotten is that, I did not touch my kdss valves. Nobody but toyota has touched the LC but me.

So either toyota loosened them to fix the issue I had when I put the coilovers in and never tightened them back up.......

OR

They were never tightened up and done correctly from the factory (which I doubt)

Either way, me putting my own coilovers in could NOT have forced the valves open, so either way, Toyota screwed up.

Like I mentioned before, I am not going after toyota BUT I will never take it back from the dealership without doing my best to double check everything that was done. To be honest, doing that is not a bad thing for anyone to do.

So for me it was a lesson learned.....never trust anyone when it is your life behind the wheel.