A 2H story

[arnott1t]

This thread will document some work I'm hoping to do to the 2H in my 87HJ60. It's a turbo'd inter cooled rig that is worked hard in a heavy rig with 37's. It has been fantastic except for a few head issues.....

After turbo install I ran the cruiser in a daily driver form for a couple years. Liked the turbo and liked performance. Then I got other vehicles to daily drive and tweaked the cruiser more and more. I tuned it to 1200f max EGT pre turbo and may dip above that once in a while but I'm pretty good. Prior to a long trip to cruise moab 2012 I noticed some bubbling in the overflow bottle under heavy load. I figured a bad head gasket and opened it up. To my disappointment it wasn't a head gasket but was a cracked head....or better described as shattered.....

I found a replacement head from a lower mile wagon with no cracks.... that went on with a head gasket kit from Radd. A 400km test drive showed no signs of leakage and off to Moab I went. Truck again ran great for a long time. I started to see issues again in early 2013. Again under load I'd not only have bubbles but would be blowing coolant out the overflow. This time I hoped it was a gasket since the leak was so bad. That brings us to today...


I pulled the head again and am happy to say no cracks in the head are visible. Of course pre cups are cracked and they were when I put it together but thats the worst of it. Gasket appears to be leaking in a few odd spots that I'll try and explain and take pics of.

Now for decisions and plans....

My 60 is great and wheels pretty good but is rough... it has dents everywhere rust starting to rear its head and a frame in need of repair. It's mostly a wheeler and occasional camping rig. I'd be surprised if it sees 10,000km a year going forward if it were up and running. I have a fleet of other rigs to satisfy me but none like my wagon....Previous performance had me running 19psi boost and truck felt powerful. Could keep up with many 1HDT's i've hung around with.

I want to fix this head issue and pick away at the others. I also want to tinker with this head as the truck can be down a while. Funding for this project is tight but I'll do my best to do what I can.

Option 1:
Replace gasket and drive it again....150$ I didn't do any re torques on the head last time which may have caused this failure. If I threw a factory gasket in it I'd be back on the road in short order. Factory gasket is not MLS and neither have any of the previous gaskets been. I could turn boost down....lame..... to try and preserve the gasket.

Option 2:
Replace gasket with factory, add ARP studs and do some polish and port work ~600$. This would make me happy to have a few tinkering mods and with the ARP studs I could run higher torque and maybe have better luck. This would be following the footsteps of gerg and his 3B. I'd keep boost up and maybe see some performance gains from the port and polish job. Behemoth60 says it's the bee's knees for EGT reduction.

Option 3:
Same as 2 but with addition of in frame rebuild....mainly new alfin pistons...I have bad blow by. A likely sign of ring land failure with up'd boost. More money again but likely have a fresh engine that could move... Need to get bores measured to see if they are true enough.


So what says Mud. I'm leaning toward option 2 with option 3 on the table if I fall into some extra cash....

My turbo also needs a rebuild so I could look at an upgrade there.....it's a garret t25 with .48 A/R right now. I have access to a CT 26 off an HDT... better or worse?


Is polish and port worth it?
ARP head studs needed?
I can get a custom built MLS gasket for 350 plus shipping overseas and back..... worth it? vs 120 for factory?

 

[Fantom]

I'd do option 2 with 3 if you have the time/budget or transplant into a rust free fj, which is by far a better option because you will always chase rust. You can score a blown engine fj for less than all the body work cost on yours.
As for the goodies, I've always stuck with factory head gaskets, any time I've ventured away to aftermarket ones they blew. As for custom built gaskets....why? Too much money?
Bolts are pretty much the same thing, factory original ones are good, what are the specs on the aftermarket ones? Are they harder? Less stretch? What?
We've got 2h engines up here with over 500,000km and turbos still running original, and we also have then die after 200,000, so who is to say what caused the failures, likely a combination of things.
Why would you re torque the head? The FSM doesn't call for it.
Way back, when I was dumber and shorter, I believed a buddy that was studying to be a mechanic, he told me the head needed to be re torqued after a couple weeks of driving (this was on a 22r I rebuilt ages ago), when I did, the gasket blew again, so I replaced it and followed his advice again. 3 months later, I blew another gasket. I replaced it again, this time I told him to go piss up a rope and the truck ran fine for 5 years, then I sold it and have no clue what happened after. Same gaskets, same bolts, no changes.
The FSM never called for it either.

 

[blis]

On the head gasket topic, ALWAYS follow the instructions that come with the gasket about re-torquing... Some need it, some dont...

Since the 60 aint your only vehicle I would obviously go with the option 3, just for s*** and giggles...

ps. if you want to upgrade turbo go for Gturbo...

 

[Slowerthanu]

I'd do option 2 with 3 if you have the time/budget or transplant into a rust free fj, which is by far a better option because you will always chase rust. You can score a blown engine fj for less than all the body work cost on yours.
As for the goodies, I've always stuck with factory head gaskets, any time I've ventured away to aftermarket ones they blew. As for custom built gaskets....why? Too much money?
Bolts are pretty much the same thing, factory original ones are good, what are the specs on the aftermarket ones? Are they harder? Less stretch? What?
We've got 2h engines up here with over 500,000km and turbos still running original, and we also have then die after 200,000, so who is to say what caused the failures, likely a combination of things.
Why would you re torque the head? The FSM doesn't call for it.
Way back, when I was dumber and shorter, I believed a buddy that was studying to be a mechanic, he told me the head needed to be re torqued after a couple weeks of driving (this was on a 22r I rebuilt ages ago), when I did, the gasket blew again, so I replaced it and followed his advice again. 3 months later, I blew another gasket. I replaced it again, this time I told him to go piss up a rope and the truck ran fine for 5 years, then I sold it and have no clue what happened after. Same gaskets, same bolts, no changes.
The FSM never called for it either.

I agree with you about everything except the bolt issue. ARP builds a great product that will no stretch, is reusable and gives a far more accurate torque value.

 

[Ratpuke]

Option 4. Which is Option 3 but swap engine into custom built 40 series troopie (or more realistically road trip to Manitobia to get RockDork's mint 60 now that he's MIA being a pig farmer).

 

[arnott1t]

Is a farmer rebuild with new rings and pistons an easy enough gig. I'd like to drop pan push old out bottom and new in top. Leave all bearings as is since oil pressure was good. How much measuring and what measurements to I need?


I'm going oem head gasket. Do I stay oem bolts and up torque or go arp studs and up torque or oem and stock....

Why did this last gasket leak and why won't it next time?

 

[Fantom]

Hmm, I'll look into the ARP stuff, thanks.
As for why this gasket blew...who knows. Have you checked the head and block for flatness? There could have been a defect, there might be another issue we are not aware of. Got pics of where it blew and how?

 

[blis]

there are couple reasons for head gasket failing....

1) warped head/block
2) improper or uneven torque
3) wrong sequence when torquing

Personally I would go with oem gasket and torgue unless you're planning on boosting over 2bar...

 

[arnott1t]

I'll try and get some tonight. On the head there are coolant passages that a blocked by both the head gasket and block. It looks to me like the gasket allowed combustion gas to reach these coolant passages. Ill see what I can find...

 

[arnott1t]

there are couple reasons for head gasket failing....

1) warped head/block
2) improper or uneven torque
3) wrong sequence when torquing

Personally I would go with oem gasket and torgue unless you're planning on boosting over 2bar...

I'm only boosting 19psi or so which I think is around 1.3 bar. Just checked and the 12HT has the same torque spec. Just wonder if higher torque would help my sealing and prevent another failure... I'll also try and do a better job cleaning the threads and using a thread lubricant to be sure I get full torque.

I'll also see if I can get a straight edge to check for flatness. This wasn't done before...

 

[o8ko8k]

1.3 bar would be a 5psi boost. 19psi is 2.3bar boost. I'm no expert but that's a bit higher than average and about double the boost some would recommend. Maybe the high boost is the culprit? I don't think the stock injector pump can utilize that much boost. So you have a modified IP? Maybe backing off a bit on the boost would help too?

 

[arnott1t]

1.3 bar would be a 5psi boost. 19psi is 2.3bar boost. I'm no expert but that's a bit higher than average and about double the boost some would recommend. Maybe the high boost is the culprit? I don't think the stock injector pump can utilize that much boost. So you have a modified IP? Maybe backing off a bit on the boost would help too?

Well I was nearing the limits of the injection pump I thought being that at times it was tough to get 1200f temp but on summer fuel I was reaching peak temps. So I think the fuel is there to support the boost. I'm not sure where AFR's are or if there is a better way to tune boost down. I've always had troubles with waste gates leaking boost at lower values. I'd could attempt to knock it down again to 12-15psi but I really thought I felt more seat of the pants power with the higher boost...

Long term might be an option but I don't want to go there yet...

 

[ozwallaby]

1.3 bar would be a 5psi boost. 19psi is 2.3bar boost. I'm no expert but that's a bit higher than average and about double the boost some would recommend. Maybe the high boost is the culprit? I don't think the stock injector pump can utilize that much boost. So you have a modified IP? Maybe backing off a bit on the boost would help too?

Now here's where things get a little misinterpreted.... my understanding is boost pressure is generally accepted to be above atmospheric (14.7 lbs per sq inch)... but you're indicating it is above zero (ie not atmospheric)... so this means my shytbox nonturbo Hyundai dd is running at 14.7 lbs boost... no wonder it goes so well.....

 

[Fantom]

Just checked and the 12HT has the same torque spec. Just wonder if higher torque would help my sealing and prevent another failure... I'll also try and do a better job cleaning the threads and using a thread lubricant to be sure I get full torque.

I'll also see if I can get a straight edge to check for flatness. This wasn't done before...

I wouldn't torque it higher than specified. I would make sure the bolts are not stretched and replace them if they are. As opposed to using thread lubricant, which, just like left over oil in the bolt holes, it might give a false torque due to a hydrolocking effect. I always use a shop vac or compressed air to clean out the bolt holes so they are dry.
As for flatness, that's a must to check on the head and block. There is a spec in the manual as to how much is allowed. If it is gradual, over a long distance then it's not too bad, but if it is more pronounced over short spans it can cause problems.

 

[Wheelingnoob]

If you are also seeing excessive blow by I would go option 3. Since its not a DD and you have time to spend on it I would do it. If its already got a lot of blow by then you would be in there again sooner than later as it is.

Issue with your option 3 is doing it in the truck is you cant get the head and block decked. If you are doing a MHG its a must do to get it decked (both head and block). I have used ARP head bolts with good results in my gas performance engines.

I think with all that done you would have a hell of a setup that would last you a good bit if done right. The turbo if its working good as is then just get it rebuilt and bolt it back on.

 

[arnott1t]

What is MHG?

I have cleaned head surface and will try checking for true in the next few days...
I used a telescoping bore gauge and outside micrometer to measure bores....results weren't consent enough for me to be sure but numbers don't look to bad. Most cylinders showed different diameters by a few though top to bottom but not out of round... Again I'd like to get a real bore gauge to triple double check...I'll give my method another go as well and see how different the numbers are from the ones I took today.

If the bores are good I'll get pistons....undecided on studs but I'd hate to wonder if they would have helped so they will likely be bought too. A factory gasket and a turbo rebuild kit. Some polish and port work as well. I've been inspired to try and make a shop vac flow bench to test changes in porting similar to what RocDoc did on his 3fe thread. Basically using a shop vac and liquid manometer to measure changes in restriction through the head. Speaking with him his thoughts were that it really helped match the flow across each cylinder. This could even be done with intake and exhaust manifold on and just open one valve at a time... A pipe dream certainly but it is fun to try and replicate expensive equipment.

I also acquired various carbides and flapper wheels for the porting work.

 

[Ratpuke]

Swap in a 12HT already and get back to tinkering with the wood fired boiler.

 

[Wheelingnoob]

What is MHG?

I have cleaned head surface and will try checking for true in the next few days...
I used a telescoping bore gauge and outside micrometer to measure bores....results weren't consent enough for me to be sure but numbers don't look to bad. Most cylinders showed different diameters by a few though top to bottom but not out of round... Again I'd like to get a real bore gauge to triple double check...I'll give my method another go as well and see how different the numbers are from the ones I took today.

If the bores are good I'll get pistons....undecided on studs but I'd hate to wonder if they would have helped so they will likely be bought too. A factory gasket and a turbo rebuild kit. Some polish and port work as well. I've been inspired to try and make a shop vac flow bench to test changes in porting similar to what RocDoc did on his 3fe thread. Basically using a shop vac and liquid manometer to measure changes in restriction through the head. Speaking with him his thoughts were that it really helped match the flow across each cylinder. This could even be done with intake and exhaust manifold on and just open one valve at a time... A pipe dream certainly but it is fun to try and replicate expensive equipment.

I also acquired various carbides and flapper wheels for the porting work.

Sorry its Metal Head Gasket.

I think with ARP's and stock head gasket (if the surfaces are flat) would be a good upgrade. The ARP head studs I have used gave a nice solid torque on all nuts un like OEM that can feel a bit strange when torqued.

I think doing some cleanup work and polishing on the pre cups would be a good idea and help with EGT's and possibly cracking. The head ports may yield further efficiency improvements.

I would also look into having the pistons faces and cups ceramic coated to reduce heat induced issues like hot spots.

Look forward to seeing what you do, we have a spare 2H we are planing to build for my brothers truck at some point.

Cheers

 

[arnott1t]

Ok I have some photos to post up.





This is a pic of gasket. Notice the top half of the sealing ring is discoloured. 3 or 4 of the cylinders are this way. On the flip side of the gasket the entire ring is clean and shiney. I'm guessing this is where the leak was.






Intake port: you can see the back side of what I'm guessing is a pressed in valve seat. This creates a really sharp edge for intake air to fight on its way around the corner. Ill be porting that out. The rest of runners look pretty clean. Ill be polishing and cleaning up casting defects. I also want to open up runner on cyl 1 and 6. They seem to be the least straight.





Valves look to have some decent wear on them where they were hitting the seats.. Ill clean the up as best I can and do some reading on back cutting to free up more area for air to flow






Here is a valve fully seated. Notice how far inset is is to the head surface. I've done some reading in de-shrouding a valve and I think I can do that here. By porting the bevel leading into the valve seat ill open up flow area at lower lifts of the valve. Basically instead of the bevel into the valve seat being a 45* it would be a gradual curve. This will also reduce compression ratio a bit. Could be a good thing being that the 2h has such a high one.






Example of low lift. After porting I hope to have more area for gas to flow.


That's it for now. Still looking like pistons will be on the card. Need some more measuring. So it's looking like option 3

 

[arnott1t]

Well I pulled the older cracked up head and attacked with a zip disc. I wanted to see where and how much I can remove from the exhaust ports. They have a zig zag flow path while the intake is pretty straight

Still want to cut more out to determine how thick vertical walls if port are