80 series valve springs (2 Viewers)

[aquatech3]

Getting ready to pull the motor for a rebuild and a blown HG and thinking about what upgrades to do to it knowing that I am going turbo 400+ HP after the rebuilt bottom is broken in. The head is my main focus and thinking I may go Crower valve springs, retainers and valves. I will also port and polish the head and intake.
Any thoughts on Crower vs other brands also single vs dual springs?

 

[mct75]

400+ HP

Did you mean to post this in the 80 section??

 

[aquatech3]

Did you mean to post this in the 80 section??

Yes I did... should it be posted somewhere else?

 

[Golgo13]

Mct75 is poking fun.
Power of an 80-series is usually measured in goat-power.

@scottryana care to weigh in?

 

[aquatech3]

Mct75 is poking fun.
Power of an 80-series is usually measured in goat-power.

@scottryana care to weigh in?

Lol, yeah my inspiration came from @scottryana 's truck. I figured if I posted up he and others might weigh in.

 

[scottryana]

I am not a big fan of "Brian Crower" stuff. The original company was "Crower" and it was the father. The son started the "Brian Crower" spin off for imports and a lot of it is cheaper Chinese stuff sold at a markup.

If I was doing it I would look at Ferrea or Supertech. Both have complete valve trains for the 1FZ. The Supertech valve springs have options that go from 160lbs of open pressure all the way to 226lbs @11mm, so you should be able to easily find an option that fits.

The Ferrea stuff is also incredibly high quality and who I chose. Their dual springs are rated at 175lbs @10mm. The only problem with the Ferrea springs is they are not the same height as stock so you need their entire setup, valves, retainers, spring seat locators, etc.

Dual springs help control the harmonics better than single springs, if you are going single look for a beehive shape.

Really the talk should center around your goal and how high you are going to rev the engine, and then pick your components from there. For example you could make 400hp on the stock engine and valvetrain. I am doing it in my grey cruiser.

Once you start talking about really big power, your going to need to take a look at what you are going to do for a transmission. As of yet no one has stepped up and ATF Speed'ed their A343F, but those guys figure their A340 builds can hold 800awhp. But they have gotten a little more famous with their automatic running in the Baltic Supra which made 1150whp. So the cost has increased from $2999 to $3499.

 

[aquatech3]

I am not a big fan of "Brian Crower" stuff. The original company was "Crower" and it was the father. The son started the "Brian Crower" spin off for imports and a lot of it is cheaper Chinese stuff sold at a markup.

If I was doing it I would look at Ferrea or Supertech. Both have complete valve trains for the 1FZ. The Supertech valve springs have options that go from 160lbs of open pressure all the way to 226lbs @11mm, so you should be able to easily find an option that fits.

The Ferrea stuff is also incredibly high quality and who I chose. Their dual springs are rated at 175lbs @10mm. The only problem with the Ferrea springs is they are not the same height as stock so you need their entire setup, valves, retainers, spring seat locators, etc.

Dual springs help control the harmonics better than single springs, if you are going single look for a beehive shape.

Really the talk should center around your goal and how high you are going to rev the engine, and then pick your components from there. For example you could make 400hp on the stock engine and valvetrain. I am doing it in my grey cruiser.

Once you start talking about really big power, your going to need to take a look at what you are going to do for a transmission. As of yet no one has stepped up and ATF Speed'ed their A343F, but those guys figure their A340 builds can hold 800awhp. But they have gotten a little more famous with their automatic running in the Baltic Supra which made 1150whp. So the cost has increased from $2999 to $3499.

That's exactly the input I was looking for thx. Where 400 hp is my current goal but also knowing myself and like having the option of future expandability I figure it is worth spending a little extra money to have components in place while I have the motor and trans out. I also like the added benefit of duel springs vs single for the added peace of mind that I won't drop a valve if a spring goes. I know the stock lower can handle 600 to 700 hp but if I decide to go that route I do not like pushing things to their limit . One of the mods I have not made up my mind on is whether it is worth investing in upgraded rods and pistons if my ultimate goal is 600-700hp.
I will be addressing the transmission and transfer case while I have it out and need to be rebuilt anyway. At 300,000 miles I have a fair bit of slop in the transfer case and some driveline vibration at highway speeds.
My truck has been down for a couple months and all this planning and talk a big horse power has gotten me excited and can't wait to get started but I want to make sure I have a solid roadmap to get there!

 

[scottryana]

SO 400hp or 400awhp? The difference is about 1/3.

The bottom end while very stout, very heavy rods and pistons you would want to check bearings etc. I really do not think you would have problems with 700hp/475-500awhp with the stock bottom end if it was fresh. At that point you are starting to open up a can of worms with regards to fuel system, What fuel pump will you run? Will the fuel lines be large enough to handle the fuel requirement? Do you have an adequate vent setup to vent the fuel pressure (most OEM canisters are shot)?

I am not discouraging you I am just wanting to make sure you are aware of the issues you will face as you go forward.

My build for around 550-600hp, has a new fuel pump, new OEM regulator, new 550cc injectors, etc. I am about at the max for semi-stock setup on the grey truck. I have turned it down just a little because it is an original bottom end and transmission. To go much higher I would need to either run dual fuel pumps, larger injectors, aftermarket regulator and possibly new fuel lines. Which is all in the plans for the black truck.

 

[aquatech3]

SO 400hp or 400awhp? The difference is about 1/3.

The bottom end while very stout, very heavy rods and pistons you would want to check bearings etc. I really do not think you would have problems with 700hp/475-500awhp with the stock bottom end if it was fresh. At that point you are starting to open up a can of worms with regards to fuel system, What fuel pump will you run? Will the fuel lines be large enough to handle the fuel requirement? Do you have an adequate vent setup to vent the fuel pressure (most OEM canisters are shot)?

I am not discouraging you I am just wanting to make sure you are aware of the issues you will face as you go forward.

My build for around 550-600hp, has a new fuel pump, new OEM regulator, new 550cc injectors, etc. I am about at the max for semi-stock setup on the grey truck. I have turned it down just a little because it is an original bottom end and transmission. To go much higher I would need to either run dual fuel pumps, larger injectors, aftermarket regulator and possibly new fuel lines. Which is all in the plans for the black truck.

400-450hp for now so I'm guessing around 300 awhp +/-. I plan on using the same or similar set up you have in your gray truck. Even if I do plan on increasing the hp in the future I don't see it going much over 600hp but if I do I will address the larger fuel needs at that time. I had not thought about the vent system so that is something I will have to look into as well.
When you say fresh stock lower end are you also talking about new pistons and rods? I definitely will be replacing the bearings but like I said before I have not figured out what to do about rods and pistons. I am tempted to have the block bored .020 over and go with new rods and pistons but may have to rethink that if you feel the lower can definitely handle that hp. I do have a tenancy to overdo things that are not necessary.
About the transmission, I have access to an A440 which I have been told is a more stout transmission but not sure if it would be worth running in my 96' or if it would work at all. I know the A440 is OBD1 vs mine being OBDII and not sure if it would make a difference being that I will be using Haltech Elite computer. I know my 96' needs to be controlled by the factory computer.
Just a thought....

 

[scottryana]

A fresh bottom end would just be bearings and rings, unless the cylinder walls need to be bored and then you could get the +1mm pistons. I do not see any reason for forged pistons and rods for the power level you are talking about. The stock rods and pistons are plenty beefy, just open the ring gap slightly.

The A440 people talk about being beefier, but other than dead weight, that does not seem to be true. The guys in Australia have all kinds of issues with their A440's since there isn't an easy shift kit like the A343. They spend big money on transmission builds and valve bodies that don't seem to last. While my A343 with a $120 transgo shift kit has been running with no issues for years. If you want proof of this join the 1FZFE turbo group on FB. I have been a member there since it was started a couple years ago and now there are 5000+ members. I have yet to see an A440 stand up to decent power. That is a big reason there is a 4L80E adapter coming out of Australia.

You sound a lot like me and you like to tinker, so I am sure you will kind of decide what level you want to take your build and how carried away you want to be, but even up to the 600hp level around 400awhp, I would have fresh bearings, slightly bigger ring gap, and ARP studs, and MAYBE stiffer valve springs if I wanted to rev it a little higher. Other than that, at that power level you really do not need to do anything. The 1FZFE rods are like steel girders and the pistons are plenty beefy, there is a lot of talk about it here on the forum and one thread where a guy has taken the 1FZ all apart and measured and weighed all the internal components. I don't think he believed me until he actually got the engine pulled apart and started weighing things. The rod and piston combo in a 1FZ is a good 150% heavier than in a 7.0L LS.

 

[Kaninja]

SO 400hp or 400awhp? The difference is about 1/3.

The bottom end while very stout, very heavy rods and pistons you would want to check bearings etc. I really do not think you would have problems with 700hp/475-500awhp with the stock bottom end if it was fresh. At that point you are starting to open up a can of worms with regards to fuel system, What fuel pump will you run? Will the fuel lines be large enough to handle the fuel requirement? Do you have an adequate vent setup to vent the fuel pressure (most OEM canisters are shot)?

I am not discouraging you I am just wanting to make sure you are aware of the issues you will face as you go forward.

My build for around 550-600hp, has a new fuel pump, new OEM regulator, new 550cc injectors, etc. I am about at the max for semi-stock setup on the grey truck. I have turned it down just a little because it is an original bottom end and transmission. To go much higher I would need to either run dual fuel pumps, larger injectors, aftermarket regulator and possibly new fuel lines. Which is all in the plans for the black truck.

Isn't the bottom end part of the problem for making power? I mean it sure is a super stout rotating assembly....almost too much so. While all that mass and overbuiltedness is great for 2k to 5k RPM all day every day for decades, for power making it is kind of a black hole sucking up potential. I mean that wrist pin....come on lol.

 

[scottryana]

Haha, if you are asking if you could lighten up the assembly quite a bit for 600hp, which is 100hp per cylinder than yes you definitely could.

The wrist pin is pretty huge! 1.024"x2.750" the only wrist pin that I know of that is bigger is the 1.031"x2.750" 500+ cubic inch Hemi drag engines.

I think in the other thread you will even see that we talk about him getting a custom crank, rods, pistons and pins that are more traditional sizes to make them much lighter weight. Really it all just depends on what your goal is, what level of tinkering you are into and really what your budget is. I would love to go really really crazy with this engine, but there just is no good platform for it. It is too big and heavy for a sports car, having a truck that revs to 8000rpms and makes huge power is silly, so in my humble opinion, the best idea is keep it stockish, add the power you need to make it fun to drive again and focus that energy on the engine that really needs it.... the 1/3UZFE haha.

Isn't the bottom end part of the problem for making power? I mean it sure is a super stout rotating assembly....almost too much so. While all that mass and overbuiltedness is great for 2k to 5k RPM all day every day for decades, for power making it is kind of a black hole sucking up potential. I mean that wrist pin....come on lol.

 

[aquatech3]

A fresh bottom end would just be bearings and rings, unless the cylinder walls need to be bored and then you could get the +1mm pistons. I do not see any reason for forged pistons and rods for the power level you are talking about. The stock rods and pistons are plenty beefy, just open the ring gap slightly.

The A440 people talk about being beefier, but other than dead weight, that does not seem to be true. The guys in Australia have all kinds of issues with their A440's since there isn't an easy shift kit like the A343. They spend big money on transmission builds and valve bodies that don't seem to last. While my A343 with a $120 transgo shift kit has been running with no issues for years. If you want proof of this join the 1FZFE turbo group on FB. I have been a member there since it was started a couple years ago and now there are 5000+ members. I have yet to see an A440 stand up to decent power. That is a big reason there is a 4L80E adapter coming out of Australia.

You sound a lot like me and you like to tinker, so I am sure you will kind of decide what level you want to take your build and how carried away you want to be, but even up to the 600hp level around 400awhp, I would have fresh bearings, slightly bigger ring gap, and ARP studs, and MAYBE stiffer valve springs if I wanted to rev it a little higher. Other than that, at that power level you really do not need to do anything. The 1FZFE rods are like steel girders and the pistons are plenty beefy, there is a lot of talk about it here on the forum and one thread where a guy has taken the 1FZ all apart and measured and weighed all the internal components. I don't think he believed me until he actually got the engine pulled apart and started weighing things. The rod and piston combo in a 1FZ is a good 150% heavier than in a 7.0L LS.

Thanks for clearing he A440 vs 343 up for me....makes one less decision for me to have to make. I also am leaning heavily toward the stock pistons and rods the more I think about what you are saying and I know you have way more knowledge and experience than I do so I trust that. Would you also recommend keeping the existing rods and pistons or just buy new factory ones? Not sure about stress on those parts at 300k.

I just started a build thread so I will move this conversation over there.

 

[mct75]

I hate to be "that guy" but at what point does it make sense to start with an engine that makes more than 190 HP in its current form?

 

[TUNEUP]

Because..
1) we can
2) its easier
3) its already in the truck
4) it aint rocket science