80 SERIES UPGRADE POLL - MANUMATIC? (3 Viewers)

[bryanb]

Interested! 3.52 1st, 5 speeds, gear hold.... brilliant!!!!

 

[Dragos80]

Actually the first four years of the 4.7, 98-02, came with the same A343 as 95-97 4.5 1FZ. When they changed to A750, hp and torque were the same, so if the 4.7 2UZ was “designed” for anything, it was A343.

When the 80 was designed, the speed limits were 65 mph, now I live miles from a 80 mph freeway. I am putting a turbo on my 80, putting it on par or above 4.7 in power and torque. Is it then designed to work with the A750?

What were the A650 and A750 “designed” for?

The A750 was used in TLCs that had more power and torque, more weight and a higher tow rating than my 80. And unlike the A343, the A750 was used with turbo diesel TLCs in other markets, where they dealt with more torque and were rated to handle higher towing, 3.5 metric tons or 7700 lbs. The A650, though it may be tough, as far as I know, never left the Toyota factory speced for a large heavy SUV or truck like the A750.

I understand your logic on the overdrive spacing. My experience with 285s tells me the 1FZ will purr along all day happily with a bit more overdrive, it just needs a bit deeper step when it downshifts and definitely a step between A343s 2-3.

I am THRILLED at the work you are doing to make a 5 speed work in an 80.

This thread is about whether I would be interested in putting A750 in my 80 for $4k (plus tranny). The answer is absolutely, provided that’s a complete bolt in solution like the Wits End turbo. I have experience with A750 from 100, and have wanted one in my 80 since the first time I drove the 100.

If you get the A650 worked out
and this product doesn’t look like it’s getting traction, I will very gratefully follow in your footsteps.

Please understand I am not picking a fight with you here or anyone else.
Trying to shed some light from my research done in this matter, which I hope will help everybody interested in this fight.
Above all, I am not trying to sell anything here to anyone, therefore I am not putting down Ward's idea in favor of mine.
I have no gains to make here at all.


Regarding the L6 vs V8 and 343 vs 750 here is the sticky point.

1FZ has a peak torque ar 3200RPM.

An 80 loaded at a legal speed limit with too much overdrive (given by the final gear ratio and tire size) would be far below that RPM. The engine performs at it's best when the torque is at it's max in the RPM band.
You cannot say that if you get more speed the RPM will get back to that optimal range, because the load on the engine would be far greater at 80 MPH vs 65 MPH.

 

[HDJdreams]

An 80 loaded at a legal speed limit with too much overdrive (given by the final gear ratio and tire size) would be far below that RPM. The engine performs at it's best when the torque is at it's max in the RPM band.

My thoughts:
My target is the get to 37” tires. There seems to be a lot of back and forth on gearing, whether to do 4.88 (just barely lower effective ratio than stock tires) or 5.29s, which more people on 37s seem to like.

When I am looking at the A750, I am doing it with the idea of running 5.29 gears and 37s. Roughly the equivalent of 4.30s on stock tires. It’s not so much to run lower rpms than stock at same speed, but to be able to run lower axle gears and not take as much of a hit on the highway.

 

[wardharris]

For the $4k poll, I was expecting that minus the transmission, it would include everything else “bolt-on/plug and play”, that I could install the shifter without too much butchery and the finished product will look good and more importantly keep the 1FZ computer happy with no CEL.

If you can offer a kit that uses the normal valve body and shifter at the ~$2k price point, you would likely have 5x-10x the take rate. I absolutely want more gears with a wider spread in my 80, the manu shift feature I not so particular about.

Offer both to spread out your costs, Stage 1 gets the A750 in the 80, Stage 2 gets the upgraded shifter.

Good comments. Some responses:

• Yes, we agree on what would be included and what the results would be - no CEL
• We are in the parts business. A $2k kit is fine with us if the customer does not want manual option
• The "adapter" to mate the two is the key - plate/bellhousing/etc. - and large numbers via Option 1 AND Option 2 will drive down costs.

Stay tuned and keep up the conversation - with our thanks.

 

[HDJdreams]

Yessir. "D" is full auto, functions normally. Snick the shifter over and you get to choose. I have an A760F in my Lexus GX 460 and love it. No-brainer operation 99% of the time, but if I want to select a lower gear or hold a gear to higher revs, I GET TO PICK, not the transmission.

Suggest anyone with questions on this go drive a used GX 460, LC 200, etc. with a six speed.

Speaking of A760F 6 speed, I understand that mechanically it’s basically the same as the A750 5 speed, with an altered control system. If it was done on the front end, could the “manumatic” be designed for the A760F too? Buy 5 and get one free?

Stepping aside from the debate of whether the 1FZ could use another OD gear on the freeway, the other exciting possibility is that as deeper low range gears hit the market (currently 3.1, with Marlin testing the waters for 4), a 2nd OD allows deeper low range to still cover the range the stock ratio did.

Stock setup ratio in OD and low range .753x2.48=1.87

A760F 2nd OD and 3.1:1 low .586x3.1=1.82

A major criticism of the Rubicon 4.0 low range was it was too low for everything else. I go down to Easter Jeep Safari often, and have been stuck behind those guys that were geared too low for moderate trails.

 

[wardharris]

Speaking of A760F 6 speed, I understand that mechanically it’s basically the same as the A750 5 speed, with an altered control system. If it was done on the front end, could the “manumatic” be designed for the A760F too? Buy 5 and get one free?

Stepping aside from the debate of whether the 1FZ could use another OD gear on the freeway, the other exciting possibility is that as deeper low range gears hit the market (currently 3.1, with Marlin testing the waters for 4), a 2nd OD allows deeper low range to still cover the range the stock ratio did.

Stock setup ratio in OD and low range .753x2.48=1.87

A760F 2nd OD and 3.1:1 low .586x3.1=1.82

A major criticism of the Rubicon 4.0 low range was it was too low for everything else. I go down to Easter Jeep Safari often, and have been stuck behind those guys that were geared too low for moderate trails.

The 760 is already a "six speed manumatic." We can provide a lot of upgrades (HD valve body, TC lock up kit, etc.) but the basic transmission is a six speed with on-board manual shift as an option. Move lever to left and start shifting up and down.

My GX will be the official guinea pig for a bunch of new products, including HD valve body, a new TC lock up kit, new temp gauge, new trans coolers, a Long Range Automotive auxiliary fuel tank some other Terrain Tamer stuff and products from other manufacturers as well to be announced.

 

[Dragos80]

My thoughts:
My target is the get to 37” tires. There seems to be a lot of back and forth on gearing, whether to do 4.88 (just barely lower effective ratio than stock tires) or 5.29s, which more people on 37s seem to like.

When I am looking at the A750, I am doing it with the idea of running 5.29 gears and 37s. Roughly the equivalent of 4.30s on stock tires. It’s not so much to run lower rpms than stock at same speed, but to be able to run lower axle gears and not take as much of a hit on the highway.

May I suggest looking into a 10% under drive for your transfer case? Keep the 4.11 diffs, A750 and 10% under drive.
The gear ratios for the tranny would be perfect in your case with 37"s. You would not need anything else. But in 5th gear on the freeway you would be way too low in RPM. a 10% would bring your diff ratio up to 4.52 if you want to look at it that way
So 4.52 x 0.716 = 3.23 final which is really not bad for 37"s
Yes, ideally you would want a little more than that, but it's fine this way. Otherwise your first 4 gear ratios would be greatly altered and your engine would redline all the time. So no.

Consider this option. In your case I would have nothing bad to say about the A750 fitted to your rig, given the x-case or diffs are regeared as well. (but not too much).

 

[Dragos80]

Good comments. Some responses:

• Yes, we agree on what would be included and what the results would be - no CEL
• We are in the parts business. A $2k kit is fine with us if the customer does not want manual option
• The "adapter" to mate the two is the key - plate/bellhousing/etc. - and large numbers via Option 1 AND Option 2 will drive down costs.

Stay tuned and keep up the conversation - with our thanks.

I like that idea. (no manual mode to keep the costs down)

 

[Dragos80]

A760 is a major overkill in 6th gear.
Diesel? Yes. 1200 RPM on the freeway, sure.

 

[Dragos80]

Speaking of A760F 6 speed, I understand that mechanically it’s basically the same as the A750 5 speed, with an altered control system. If it was done on the front end, could the “manumatic” be designed for the A760F too? Buy 5 and get one free?

Stepping aside from the debate of whether the 1FZ could use another OD gear on the freeway, the other exciting possibility is that as deeper low range gears hit the market (currently 3.1, with Marlin testing the waters for 4), a 2nd OD allows deeper low range to still cover the range the stock ratio did.

Stock setup ratio in OD and low range .753x2.48=1.87

A760F 2nd OD and 3.1:1 low .586x3.1=1.82

A major criticism of the Rubicon 4.0 low range was it was too low for everything else. I go down to Easter Jeep Safari often, and have been stuck behind those guys that were geared too low for moderate trails.

I don't think you need to worry about the 5th or 6th gear in LO range off road. I hope you are not like my neighbor in his Jeep racing off road.

 

[wardharris]

I like that idea. (no manual mode to keep the costs down)

Agreed!

 

[HDJdreams]

Good comments. Some responses:

• Yes, we agree on what would be included and what the results would be - no CEL
• We are in the parts business. A $2k kit is fine with us if the customer does not want manual option
• The "adapter" to mate the two is the key - plate/bellhousing/etc. - and large numbers via Option 1 AND Option 2 will drive down costs.

Stay tuned and keep up the conversation - with our thanks.

Would we be able to fine tune the shift map (rpm and throttle position/load of shifts) with a laptop?

 

[wardharris]

Would we be able to fine tune the shift map (rpm and throttle position/load of shifts) with a laptop?

Not sure a PC is needed.... The COMPUSHIFT II from HGM is pretty much stand-alone but tunable.

COMPUSHIFT II

 

[HDJdreams]

View attachment 1643810

When CORRECTED 4th gear ratio, the A760F and the GM 6L80/90 have virtually identical ratios.

GM 6L80/90: 4.03/2.36/1.53/1.152/.852/.667
Note that 4th gear is NOT 1:1, but 1.152.

Multiplying A760F ratios by 1.152 (equivalent of selecting a different axle ratio)
4.06/2.35/1.61/1.15/.825/.675

I am just saying that A760F is the functional equivalent of 6L80, except from Toyota instead of GM so that means way better! If the hard parts of the kit work with both the A750F and A760F, I would go for the A760F. I am assuming I will have to regear my axles regardless.

There is no reason that 6 speeds couldn’t work for 1FZ. It’s true the current 8 and 10 speeds are used with gas engines that generally rev higher than 1FZ, the they are also used with diesels that have a lower redline than 1FZ.

 

[FXR UPR]

Love the idea of a A750 trans in my LX. Having owned a 98 100 series with 4.7 and 4 spd auto, and driving newer LX470s ( I used to work at a Lexus dealership) with the VVT 4.7 and A750 trans, they are 2 different trucks. The 5 spd makes the truck so much more enjoyable to drive.

 

[wardharris]

When CORRECTED 4th gear ratio, the A760F and the GM 6L80/90 have virtually identical ratios.

GM 6L80/90: 4.03/2.36/1.53/1.152/.852/.667
Note that 4th gear is NOT 1:1, but 1.152.

Multiplying A760F ratios by 1.152 (equivalent of selecting a different axle ratio)
4.06/2.35/1.61/1.15/.825/.675

I am just saying that A760F is the functional equivalent of 6L80, except from Toyota instead of GM so that means way better! If the hard parts of the kit work with both the A750F and A760F, I would go for the A760F. I am assuming I will have to regear my axles regardless.

There is no reason that 6 speeds couldn’t work for 1FZ. It’s true the current 8 and 10 speeds are used with gas engines that generally rev higher than 1FZ, the they are also used with diesels that have a lower redline than 1FZ.

The three cases are same as far as I know - 750 gate, 750 Tiptronic and 760 Tiptronic, so the new bellhousing should be universal.

I have no opinion or advise on whether one should go 5 speed or 6 speed. Also no advice on using gate or Tiptronic version of 5 speed. We can supply what is needed for turning a non-shiftable 750 into a 750 manual.

The question:

"How many of you guys want a 1FZ-FE to A750 or A760 bellhousing kit that will make it easy to hook 'em up IF IT COST $600 FOR THE BELLHOUSING/ADAPTER?"

 

[Dragos80]

Good comments. Some responses:

• Yes, we agree on what would be included and what the results would be - no CEL
• We are in the parts business. A $2k kit is fine with us if the customer does not want manual option
• The "adapter" to mate the two is the key - plate/bellhousing/etc. - and large numbers via Option 1 AND Option 2 will drive down costs.

Stay tuned and keep up the conversation - with our thanks.

I think I missed an important element here.
If one opts for the "regular" auto version, will the ability to downshift (engine brake) be lost? Or, for example, shifting into first gear off road and keep it there and possibly shifting to second be lost as well?

Will this shifting ability ONLY be retained through the manumatic/tiptronic feature?

I don't think I read it clearly enough to make sense in my mind.

Or will there be a gated shifter option?
Could you clarify this for me please?

 

[wardharris]

I think I missed an important element here.
If one opts for the "regular" auto version, will the ability to downshift (engine brake) be lost? Or, for example, shifting into first gear off road and keep it there and possibly shifting to second be lost as well?

Will this shifting ability ONLY be retained through the manumatic/tiptronic feature?

I don't think I read it clearly enough to make sense in my mind.

Or will there be a gated shifter option?
Could you clarify this for me please?

• No loss of function if "regular" configuration is used. It is just a HD valve body for improved shifting / operation.
• If you upgrade to a Tiptronic/manual shift valve body, engine control system and shifter, you will get a gated shifter.

Perhaps a phone call would help clear this up.

 

[Dirty Koala]

Knowing myself I would most likely splurge for the tiptronic version, but I do like the idea of an entry level package with the ability to upgrade later if desired. Its a good strategy to get this into more cruisers faster.

I have a nice 97 LX450 with a fresh S/C ready and waiting for this to come to fruition.

 

[wardharris]

Knowing myself I would most likely splurge for the tiptronic version, but I do like the idea of an entry level package with the ability to upgrade later if desired. Its a good strategy to get this into more cruisers faster.

I have a nice 97 LX450 with a fresh S/C ready and waiting for this to come to fruition.

We feel the love...