682nd Post of ‘What does this HG tell you?’ (1 Viewer)

[Mighty690]

I actually purchased OEM bolts already and had planned on using those because my preference is generally to go with what has worked. However, I am now considering using the ARP studs, especially if I don’t have the block decked as they are reusable (I understand the FSM gives parameters for reusing the bolts as well, I’m just a ‘while you are in there’ kind a guy and would just prefer replacing them each time). With the pitting, I have concerns that the gasket will adequately seal and if I doesn’t, I don’t want to be another 270 bucks in the hole. Replacing just the gasket is a much cheaper endeavor (other than my time, which let’s be honest, we think is worth at least $1000 bucks an hour ). I was actually kind of looking forward to the last 90, who doesn love a tense few moments! You guys are awesome, I appreciate all the insight you are providing.



As I understand, you torque them to manufacture recommendation, which from what I can tell reading around mud, is 3steps to 80ft lbs and a retorque after several hot/cold cycles (although most don’t seem to do that or think it’s necessary).

OP: a new OEM head gasket will be fine on that "pitted" block. That's not too bad, and you've done a nice job preparing it. Don't do anything else to it either, like trying to grind it with a hand held tool. I've seen guys on here do that...

 

[Red Merle]

I actually purchased OEM bolts already and had planned on using those because my preference is generally to go with what has worked. However, I am now considering using the ARP studs, especially if I don’t have the block decked as they are reusable (I understand the FSM gives parameters for reusing the bolts as well, I’m just a ‘while you are in there’ kind a guy and would just prefer replacing them each time). With the pitting, I have concerns that the gasket will adequately seal and if I doesn’t, I don’t want to be another 270 bucks in the hole. Replacing just the gasket is a much cheaper endeavor (other than my time, which let’s be honest, we think is worth at least $1000 bucks an hour ). I was actually kind of looking forward to the last 90, who doesn love a tense few moments! You guys are awesome, I appreciate all the insight you are providing.



As I understand, you torque them to manufacture recommendation, which from what I can tell reading around mud, is 3steps to 80ft lbs and a retorque after several hot/cold cycles (although most don’t seem to do that or think it’s necessary).

How do you account for the 90 degree sweeps though? That is where the FSM goes beyond the spec that you can see on the torque wrench and accounts for the torque to yield nature of the OEM bolts. There is no mention of what the final torque could be, it just says, "do the sweeps".

The gasket takes up a lot of the "slop" that the pitting would cause. It's thick and full of whatever resin that they are infused with. It will absorb anything like what your pics show as long as there isn't some obvious problem with the block. My advice would be to not over think this. The new gasket design takes care of the issue with the coolant passages that were determined to be the cause of the failures that some have reported. No offense to anyone that has another speculative opinion on why these fail, but CDan explained why the original gaskets failed and how the new gaskets have addressed those issues. From what I can garner by reading through 10 plus years of head gasket threads, the new gasket design solves the problem.

I have yet to read a thread that says that using new OEM bolts has caused another failure. The ARP stud method seems like a PITA to me and leaves more opportunity for failure since most people are not going to tear back into the motor for a re-torque and there is zero evidence that using the ARP studs is an improvement.

 

[Outbounders]

How do you account for the 90 degree sweeps though? That is where the FSM goes beyond the spec that you can see on the torque wrench and accounts for the torque to yield nature of the OEM bolts. There is no mention of what the final torque could be, it just says, "do the sweeps".

The gasket takes up a lot of the "slop" that the pitting would cause. It's thick and full of whatever resin that they are infused with. It will absorb anything like what your pics show as long as there isn't some obvious problem with the block. My advice would be to not over think this. The new gasket design takes care of the issue with the coolant passages that were determined to be the cause of the failures that some have reported. No offense to anyone that has another speculative opinion on why these fail, but CDan explained why the original gaskets failed and how the new gaskets have addressed those issues. From what I can garner by reading through 10 plus years of head gasket threads, the new gasket design solves the problem.

I have yet to read a thread that says that using new OEM bolts has caused another failure. The ARP stud method seems like a PITA to me and leaves more opportunity for failure since most people are not going to tear back into the motor for a re-torque and there is zero evidence that using the ARP studs is an improvement.

Apologies, I think my post confused my thinking. I wasn suggesting that the bolts would cause the failure. I’m suggesting that *if* the pitting is enough to cause coolant passage and the OEM haedgasket isn able to seal properly due to the pitting, I don’t want to have to order new head bolts to yet again replace the gasket. I guess at that point I could just measure to see if they are within spec, but that’s not my preference. Also, at that point if I had to get the block machined, probably go with a MLS gasket and would want the studs to accompany. With the studs you don’t account for the sweeps, since they don’t stretch (or not near as much, as they do still have minimal elasticity) you only maintain manufacturer torque. My understanding based on research here is that the FSM calls for sweeps on the TTY bolts to get them stretched to the sweet spot where they can expand and contract with heat cycles and maintain their hold without allowing the head to become unseated or unsealed. I’m a novice at this so this could be complete crap that I’m writing. This is how we learn though, right?

 

[Red Merle]

Apologies, I think my post confused my thinking. I wasn suggesting that the bolts would cause the failure. I’m suggesting that *if* the pitting is enough to cause coolant passage and the OEM haedgasket isn able to seal properly due to the pitting, I don’t want to have to order new head bolts to yet again replace the gasket. I guess at that point I could just measure to see if they are within spec, but that’s not my preference. Also, at that point if I had to get the block machined, probably go with a MLS gasket and would want the studs to accompany. With the studs you don’t account for the sweeps, since they don’t stretch (or not near as much, as they do still have minimal elasticity) you only maintain manufacturer torque. My understanding based on research here is that the FSM calls for sweeps on the TTY bolts to get them stretched to the sweet spot where they can expand and contract with heat cycles and maintain their hold without allowing the head to become unseated or unsealed. I’m a novice at this so this could be complete crap that I’m writing. This is how we learn though, right?

But the torque specs in the FSM are clearly not enough. If you only torque them to the 29ftlbs that the FSM requires, prior to the final steps of marking the bolts with a paint pen and going another 180 degrees, there is no way it all holds together. When you do the sweeps, you will understand the difference. The 29ftlbs is patty cake. The additional torque that the sweeps required, had me busting out the 1" 3/4"breaker bar with a reducer and all of the strength that my 275 lb body that has been doing manual labor for 30 years could muster. Those f-ers are tightskis!

I bought all new OEM bolts and I have no regrets. Yes, they are spendy, but they work and there is no lost sleep.

 

[4G63 POWER]

New oem studs & copper spray.
https://www.amazon.com/Permatex-806...rd_wg=WNxmi&psc=1&refRID=346Y8AKNNK81R5M27E90