4 Peaks to Saguaro Lake sucks now!!

[azrider]

went for a afternoon cruise up the Beeline to 4 Peaks road, then down to Saguaro Lake. They have almost completely eliminated all hill climbs to get from one sandwash to the other. There are posted signs at every spot that spurs up and out. A few years ago on the dirtbike it wasnt anything like that. You could take a sandwash down to one of the coves, backtrack a little bit, shoot up and over and hit the next sandwash and go to a different cove. Now, legally, you have to backtrack quite a ways to get to another junction to get there. I tell ya what, I wont be taking the dirtbike out there again, all the fun is gone. Not to mention the removal of the restroom structure at the staging area. They call that a OHV area, BOOO!!

 

[BrotherRob]

The restroom structure was shot full of holes and trashed beyond use. You can blame the a-holes, especially the shooters, for it's demise.

 

[Tools R Us]

went for a afternoon cruise up the Beeline to 4 Peaks road, then down to Saguaro Lake. They have almost completely eliminated all hill climbs to get from one sandwash to the other. There are posted signs at every spot that spurs up and out. A few years ago on the dirtbike it wasnt anything like that. You could take a sandwash down to one of the coves, backtrack a little bit, shoot up and over and hit the next sandwash and go to a different cove. Now, legally, you have to backtrack quite a ways to get to another junction to get there. I tell ya what, I wont be taking the dirtbike out there again, all the fun is gone.

Old news:
https://forum.ih8mud.com/az-copper-state-cruisers/531710-butcher-jones-area-lot-blocked-off.html

Not to mention the removal of the restroom structure at the staging area. They call that a OHV area, BOOO!!

Would you have even gone into those "restrooms"? If so you are braver than me, there was no budget to clean, maintain them, so they were a toxic bio hazard. Did you shoot holes in the new sign posts?

https://forum.ih8mud.com/az-copper-state-cruisers/532317-sugarloaf-kiosk-install.html

I like the new staging area, nicely done. If you need restrooms, stage from Pobrecito or Butcher Jones.

 

[mikeob1]

....

.... If you need restrooms, stage from Pobrecito or Butcher Jones...

Shannon...just bring a 5 gallon pail or a TV or VCR. Then whizz on it and shove a turd in it. Follow that up with emptying a 30 round AK mag on it. Leave it behind...somebody else might want to crap on it or shoot it. I'm sure there is a clean-up event that will take care of it.

 

[DSRTRDR]

 

[ChaseTruck]

... I tell ya what, I wont be taking the dirtbike out there again, all the fun is gone...

So, what now? You're gonna start tearing up the desert somewhere else?

 

[Tools R Us]

... Now, legally, you have to backtrack quite a ways to get to another junction to get there. ...

Nothing has changed, except the signs. If you look at a map, those are and always have been the legal routes. In fact a bunch of routes were added to the map and numbered, early in the trail management process. Later and still on going is a mapping process to add wildcat routes that are on the ground, but were not mapped. At this point they will not be numbered and will be closed.

The routes were chosen because: The Forest Service (or agency in charge of the area) knew about them and decided to keep them (lots of routes they didn't even know existed). Or user groups made a case to keep them. Or user groups didn't make a case to keep. Or a case was made to close them. Etc.

As OHV users we made two main mistakes: 1: Failed to get enough users involved. 2: Failed to inform the agencies of routes and make a case for continued use.

As of now the travel management map is locked and nothing can be done (except through lawsuits) until it is implemented. So it is a double edge sword, on one side we are going to lose (already have) a bunch of routes when it is implemented. But once implemented we can start making cases to reopen areas, routes. There is agreement that it isn't perfect, so negotiation will start on changes, but this can't happen until it is implemented. Also, there is lots of uncertainty, this is holding up projects, trail improvement, negotiation, etc.

This is why volunteering is now so important. It develops allies, connections in the agencies. Improves our knowledge of their plans, "feelings". Develops contacts to most effectively negotiate with, etc.

Any negotiation will be an uphill battle, simply complaining; "you closed lots of routes that I like" will not cut it. It will need to be a unified effort with as much support as possible targeted on making a case for a specific route/area, until the result is in, then move to the next goal. Groups like TRAL will be critical in this process.

 

[re_guderian]

Is there a current map of approved routes that is available?

Typos sent from my HTC EVO using the IH8MUD app...

 

[Kurtis]

All the good dirt bike trails are on the other side. It just sucks all the guys in Full sized vehicles and shooters tear up so much desert.

Most of the good single track stuff is to hard to find for the drunk hillbillies. The stuff that has been there for 30 years still looks like nothing more than a game trail even though guys ride it all the time. No more than a foot wide.

Its amazing the difference between the bike only trails and trails jeeps/ redneck contraptions can get to look like. The bike trails go for miles on end with out seeing a single piece of trash or side trail or destroyed cactus etc. The truck trails are littered with beer cans, tire ruts off into the desert and bullets / shooting trash everywhere. I just can't believe how dirty people are.

 

[BrotherRob]

All the good dirt bike trails are on the other side. It just sucks all the guys in Full sized vehicles and shooters tear up so much desert.

Most of the good single track stuff is to hard to find for the drunk hillbillies. The stuff that has been there for 30 years still looks like nothing more than a game trail even though guys ride it all the time. No more than a foot wide.

Its amazing the difference between the bike only trails and trails jeeps/ redneck contraptions can get to look like. The bike trails go for miles on end with out seeing a single piece of trash or side trail or destroyed cactus etc. The truck trails are littered with beer cans, tire ruts off into the desert and bullets / shooting trash everywhere. I just can't believe how dirty people are.

In my experience, it has more to do with distance from camp/beer than type of vehicle. Congested areas have a high percentage of irresponsible hillbillies.

Regardless of mode of transport, the drivers/riders I have encountered in remote areas are usually experienced, savvy and sober.

 

[wspastorbryan]

It seems like the ATV guys are the worst. Cheap enough for a stupid drunk to buy, but can still haul stuff in. No offence to the responsible ATV guys. I would much rather be further out, but I've worked every weekend for a solid month. I've gone on a Tuesday after I pick my kid up from school... and if you want to be back for a 2 year old's bedtime, that limits the distance you can reasonably go.
Four wheeling in general isn't that responsible to begin with... taking our trucks that once sold for over 50k out to beat on, taking off fenders... Just wish people could have fun without wrecking the area.

 

[-Spike-]

In my experience, it has more to do with distance from camp/beer than type of vehicle. Congested areas have a high percentage of irresponsible hillbillies.

Regardless of mode of transport, the drivers/riders I have encountered in remote areas are usually experienced, savvy and sober.

Are you becoming an equal-opportunity hater?

 

[Tools R Us]

Are you becoming an equal-opportunity hater?

Pretty much. IMHO, the time is way past to be pointing fingers. All fractions of OHV have their problem children, but the responsible parties from all fractions have to work together at solving the problem. We must, indeed, all hang together, or assuredly we shall all hang separately.

 

[Tools R Us]

Is there a current map of approved routes that is available?

Typos sent from my HTC EVO using the IH8MUD app...

The proposed Tonto travel management maps are on this page: Tonto National Forest- Home

The trick bag is, they are "proposed". In theory, all of the routes on the maps should be legal, open, unless marked closed on the ground. A few are slated to be added, so may not exist or may not go through. One of the projects that is being held up is the cutting, improving of a couple of new trails in the Sycamore area.

 

[re_guderian]

The proposed Tonto travel management maps are on this page: Tonto National Forest- Home

The trick bag is, they are "proposed". In theory, all of the routes on the maps should be legal, open, unless marked closed on the ground. A few are slated to be added, so may not exist or may not go through. One of the projects that is being held up is the cutting, improving of a couple of new trails in the Sycamore area.

Wow. So no access proposed from Butcher Jones at all? And the only one approved access to any of the coves? I'm all in favor of reducing retardation, but this proposal is pretty aggressive, in that it cuts out so much existing "road" that I'd be surprised if it can be effectively implemented, given the nature of the Saguaro Lake crowd, the longevity of the location for it's current purpose, and the current level of enforcement. I'd give it a 20% chance of success without a monumental enforcement budget. I'm just not clear on what the objective of such restrictions are, since they've let it become the "common-law" 4WD park of the Mesa Ranger District. Are they really expecting those washes where there are 8-10 rutted routes up and out to "recover" any time soon? I guess I'm asking, is this more environmentally driven? or because of accidents/incidents?, or just because we don't want people driving on roads that have been there for 30+ years, yet don't show up on an official map? especially since it's in an existing OHV area.

 

[Tools R Us]

Wow. So no access proposed from Butcher Jones at all? ...

That has been the plan for a longtime, I'm surprised that there is still access from there now. The Pobrecito staging area is the planned replacement, when it was installed the gate at Butcher Jones was to be permanently closed.

... And the only one approved access to any of the coves? I'm all in favor of reducing retardation, but this proposal is pretty aggressive, in that it cuts out so much existing "road" that I'd be surprised if it can be effectively implemented, given the nature of the Saguaro Lake crowd, the longevity of the location for it's current purpose, and the current level of enforcement. I'd give it a 20% chance of success without a monumental enforcement budget. I'm just not clear on what the objective of such restrictions are, since they've let it become the "common-law" 4WD park of the Mesa Ranger District. Are they really expecting those washes where there are 8-10 rutted routes up and out to "recover" any time soon? I guess I'm asking, is this more environmentally driven? or because of accidents/incidents?, or just because we don't want people driving on roads that have been there for 30+ years, yet don't show up on an official map? especially since it's in an existing OHV area.

For the most part, I agree. Only a fraction of the routes on the ground show on that map, the map that TRAL did likely has X3 that many.

As I understand it, travel management was a law handed down from the federal government, tasking the agencies with inventorying, categorizing, etc, their routes. Part of the mandate is to reduce redundant, unnecessary, etc, routes. All of the agencies asked for public input, held meetings, comment letter writing, etc. The meetings were poorly attended from our side, with little to no goal organization, etc. IIRC Tonto only got ~1500 letters, for, against, total. So the message that they got is; most don't care, they largely made the decisions by looking at maps.

That part is over, agonizing over the maps will do no good, we lost that round, it is done. Nothing can be done about it until travel management is passed, becomes law. Hopefully all types of OHV users can become better organized, more effectively work together to achieve our common goals in the future.

 

[Tools R Us]

... I'd give it a 20% chance of success without a monumental enforcement budget. ...

Wow, you are generous, but it is good to have a positive outlook!

 

[Tools R Us]

The Rolls:

I have a ton of hours, trail miles there, have done lots of volunteer work, including mapping, so have driven a high percentage of the "trails", legal, wildcat, etc. If asked (and have been) for my recommendation, opinion, it is to close most of them. Not to say that my opinion agrees with the new map, just that; do we really need so many trails, that you are running one and can see three or more parallel, redundant trails? In most cases, there isn't any logical reason to keep them, have about the same driving challenge, go the same place, etc.

That said, I'm likely not the best for the job. The Rolls isn't a place that I hugely care about, about the only reason that I go there is to volunteer, not a place where I would choose to go to. There are three "gems" (well relative gems, considering the area) that I enjoy. Lost two of them, but it's not something that I'm spun up about, it's the Rolls, so .

If/when the time comes to negotiate routes in the Rolls, those will be ones that I will bring up. Believe that a case can successfully be made for them.

 

[Tools R Us]

... Being personally responsible everytime you go out on a trail and holding our friends accountable is the only way responsible wheeling will ever be accepted.

Exactly correct.

 

[re_guderian]

The Rolls:

I have a ton of hours, trail miles there, have done lots of volunteer work, including mapping, so have driven a high percentage of the "trails", legal, wildcat, etc. If asked (and have been) for my recommendation, opinion, it is to close most of them. Not to say that my opinion agrees with the new map, just that; do we really need so many trails, that you are running one and can see three or more parallel, redundant trails? In most cases, there isn't any logical reason to keep them, have about the same driving challenge, go the same place, etc.

That said, I'm likely not the best for the job. The Rolls isn't a place that I hugely care about, about the only reason that I go there is to volunteer, not a place where I would choose to go to. There are three "gems" (well relative gems, considering the area) that I enjoy. Lost two of them, but it's not something that I'm spun up about, it's the Rolls, so .

If/when the time comes to negotiate routes in the Rolls, those will be ones that I will bring up. Believe that a case can successfully be made for them.

I guess I've never viewed The Rolls as any kind of scenic destination in and of itself. The attraction was a close place to go try out some new mods, or for a quick, after-work desert fix. I have a hard time using the word "routes" in association with The Rolls. It has - in my 15 or so years of using it - always been more of a desert wash playground than any kind of pristine area to be traversed to any kind of destination. I guess I've been guilty of "wildcatting", since there are no official "routes" that would be anything other than a flat dirt road or part of the wash bottom, correct, with the exception of the large hilltop out there and maybe the proposed M0003? i.e no hillclimbs or wash exits allowed now? I'm assuming that this kind of use is just not comprehended in a FS use plan, but there's certainly no denying that that is what it is.

Anyways, thanks for the explanation on the background of the current travel management effort. Frankly, is seems a lot like gov't bureaucratic let's-do-for-the-sake-of-doing, but hey, that's our gov't. I need to speak up more, I guess. As to Butcher Jones closing, that may be good, as it forces a roundabout journey to anywhere decent, that might deter the casual, retarded, and drunk. I've used the Pobrecito entrance a few times, but find it (intentionally?) difficult to get where I want to be from there. Maybe that's just my lack of familiarity with that part of the area.

And yeah, I'm kind of a cynic by nature, but in 15 years out there, I've never once seen any kind of law enforcement presence, FS or otherwise. I'd be shocked (and pleased, I guess) if they threw enforcement resources at it now.