4 banger LC, thoughts? (2 Viewers)

[hanzo111]

Full EV? I call b.s.
I own a Tesla model 3 performance. Purchased with 310 mile range.
After a 103,xxx miles It still states 286 mile range.

In reality you get about 200 miles max. If you are speeding about 75 mph you may get 180 in temperatures averaging in the 70s

Winter in an EV is an automatic 50% range depletion no matter what.

Still great around town for work transportation but not for trips, did 2300 miles in the Tesla and charged about 20 times for 20-30 minutes each.

 

[MeWantLC]

Full EV? I call b.s.
I own a Tesla model 3 performance. Purchased with 310 mile range.
After a 103,xxx miles It still states 286 mile range.

In reality you get about 200 miles max. If you are speeding about 75 mph you may get 180 in temperatures averaging in the 70s

Winter in an EV is an automatic 50% range depletion no matter what.

Still great around town for work transportation but not for trips, did 2300 miles in the Tesla and charged about 20 times for 20-30 minutes each.

Thank you very much for that information sharing, which is not easy to find in Google.

It is clear that Toyota is aiming to market the LC250 with its engine as a leading class MPG vehicle in that segment. Regular Joe won't know this is a Prado or LC250 like we nerds, but he will know it as Land Cruiser, and will be sold as hot pancakes !

"According to an estimate on Toyota's American website, the hybrid Land Cruiser's combined efficiency rating sits at 27 MPG. That makes the car nearly twice as efficient as the last V-8 Land Cruiser sold in America, rated by the EPA at just 14 MPG.

Those numbers get even more impressive when you compare the Land Cruiser with the trail-ready cars buyers will cross-compare it against. The base four-cylinder Ford Bronco is listed by the EPA at a combined 20 MPG, while a four-cylinder Wrangler comes in at 22 combined. That number is actually lower for a Jeep Wrangler 4xe plug-in hybrid once the battery depletes, returning just a combined 20 MPG on gas power. Even the modern Chevrolet Blazer, a car that has long rejected its former trail aspirations to be revived as a crossover that is far from capable off-road, lags behind at a combined 25 MPG."

Source:

2025 Land Cruiser Estimated at Impressive 27 Combined MPG

That would not only be a segment-leading mark, it would nearly double the last Land Cruiser's EPA-rated 14 combined MPG.

www.roadandtrack.com

 

[MeWantLC]

I would like to buy my last vehicle in the next year or two. I am 50 and will be retiring in 5 years. Winters will be way down south so after 4 years of use this vehicle will not be used year round thus avoiding the salt bath each winter.
I am considering just getting a 2024 4Runner because it should last me until I'm 75+. The 6th gen 4Runner or LC250 will save me $1000-$2000 per year in fuel. The 1958 model will be at the top my price range and I'm not sold on it's hard plastic, cloth seats and raised cargo floor. Hopefully the 6th gen 4Runner will be revealed sooner than later.
Worried about replacing a turbo or two plus a battery in those 25 years vs the NA engine being bullet proof but slower.

That's a good way to see it ! You made me do the same calculations, maybe keep the LC200 .

Q: have you owned a T4R ? I ask because they are full of hard plastic and cloth seats, so not sure you will like a T4R if you are not sold on that in the LC250. I don't think the LC250 would be down to a T4R "feeling" but it won't be a LC200 either. And the T4R is expected to be turbo / hybrid too, so there is not escaping there. That unless you get an overpriced 5th Gen T4R now brand new and call it done.

Cheers,

G.

 

[NinjahGoose]

Full EV? I call b.s.
I own a Tesla model 3 performance. Purchased with 310 mile range.
After a 103,xxx miles It still states 286 mile range.

In reality you get about 200 miles max. If you are speeding about 75 mph you may get 180 in temperatures averaging in the 70s

Winter in an EV is an automatic 50% range depletion no matter what.

Still great around town for work transportation but not for trips, did 2300 miles in the Tesla and charged about 20 times for 20-30 minutes each.

Have you tracked the recent findings that Tesla is suppressing the range issues with their cars?

Toyota apparently has made a breakthrough in solid state battery tech, they recently stated they are expecting 700 miles of range out of it. Even if that translates to a real world 500 miles that would be HUGE for adoption rates. Plus, EV's wouldn't be impacted so harshly by aero and environmental factors. We shall see.

 

[UZJ100LC]

Have you tracked the recent findings that Tesla is suppressing the range issues with their cars?

Toyota apparently has made a breakthrough in solid state battery tech, they recently stated they are expecting 700 miles of range out of it. Even if that translates to a real world 500 miles that would be HUGE for adoption rates. Plus, EV's wouldn't be impacted so harshly by aero and environmental factors. We shall see.

toyota has been saying this for over a decade. there is a news article every year about how in 3 years Toyota is planning production of a solid state ev and each time the estimates get passed.

 

[NinjahGoose]

toyota has been saying this for over a decade. there is a news article every year about how in 3 years Toyota is planning production of a solid state ev and each time the estimates get passed.

Oh I know. I'm just trying to stay positive.

 

[MeWantLC]

I am WAY far an expert, but my understanding is that the hybrid system in the LC250 is not the same exact implementation as of the Prius/Corolla/etc... And as such, the strain in the hybrid battery won't be the same and / or as much as those vehicles. The way I understood it, it is more of a "soft" hybrid, and as such, I think the battery would be more than fine for a long time. Would it need a replacement maybe in 20 years ? Yeah sure , I would think so ... But so many other things need attention in a 20 year old truck ! Would I rather see a 27+ MPG NA engine based LC, SUREEEEE.... ! But ain't gonna happen, so I would adopt the new system when it comes. . I am still unsure if I would sell the LC80 or / and the 200 thought

 

[vantage78]

GM has just announced a new Cadillac Escalade EV with nearly 800 kms of autonomy!!!! So maybe we are not two years away. Nearly 500 miles of autonomy in a monster sized truck bigger than any Landcruiser.

Site Maintenance

media.cadillac.com

800 kms of autonomy, if it is true, might not be quite enough yet for US drivers but for Europeans that’s half way across the Continent on a single charge. Now imagine a gorgeous Japanese designed FJ300 EV with a couple thousand kms of autonomy? Is that prospect worth the waiting? Sure is!

View attachment 3401680

The question I would have is, whether or not a battery that would enable 500 miles of range could be fit with a LC solid rear axle. It seems to me that the ’slade has better packaging (inside and out) because of its IRS.

 

[Navyator]

I enjoy reading through these threads and have a ton of excitement for the new LC/GX.

In the end, I daily a 1991 3FE that jolts me with every pothole, gets 13 combined MPG keeping under 60mph on the highway, has no airbags, and has me waiting anxiously for the big day when something important falls off her (though that never seems to come).

I haven't been inspired by any new vehicles in a long time, and the LC has me excited. 27 MPG, over twice the HP and TQ of my 80, factory center/rear locker, and 2024 suspension comfort. Oh, and everything electrical and HVAC works? Sign me tf up.

Now, if I manage to find 50k lying around I might even splurge for the GX. Lose some MPGs, but dang that Lexus leather feels good on the butt.



Edit:

I'll never get rid of the 80 though. She's my best gal. Maybe without her being my DD I could actually give her the tender lovin' she deserves!

 

[Jetboy]

The question I would have is, whether or not a battery that would enable 500 miles of range could be fit with a LC solid rear axle. It seems to me that the ’slade has better packaging (inside and out) because of its IRS.

If Toyota really has cracked the solid state battery, yeah, no problem. If not, still probably yes. A 200kwh battery isn't that big if the assumption is that it can take all the room in the frame (no engine, trans, case, fuel tank, etc.

But it won't likely be on this platform. Evs work best on EV platforms. Toyota already said that the bz4x sucks because it's an EV on a ice platform. They're starting over with a clean sheet design for EVs. I'm not sure how they see EV trucks happening though.

 

[malden]

About a month ago Toyota announced “it aims to launch next-generation lithium-ion batteries from 2026 offering longer ranges (621 miles) and quicker charging”, according to Reuters. Toyota also announced an EV powered by a solid-state battery that would have a range of 1,200 km (720 miles) and charging time of just 10 minutes for 2007.

So in the very near term there will be a new Lithium-ion batteries with ranges superior to that announced by GM (1000 kms vs 800 kms), and a year later solid state at a whopping 720 miles. Very exciting. But what Cadillac is talking about now, to put it in perspective, is Paris to Milan, or San Francisco to San Diego on one charge in a massive truck! Toyota fully has the intention and ability to surpass these figures in their trucks. So Cadillac, watch out for the solid state Toyota FJ300 EV! It’s coming !

 

[UZJ100LC]

About a month ago Toyota announced “it aims to launch next-generation lithium-ion batteries from 2026 offering longer ranges (621 miles) and quicker charging”, according to Reuters. Toyota also announced an EV powered by a solid-state battery that would have a range of 1,200 km (720 miles) and charging time of just 10 minutes for 2007.

So in the very near term there will be a new Lithium-ion batteries with ranges superior to that announced by GM (1000 kms vs 800 kms), and a year later solid state at a whopping 720 miles. Very exciting. But what Cadillac is talking about now, to put it in perspective, is Paris to Milan, or San Francisco to San Diego on one charge in a massive truck! Toyota fully has the intention and ability to surpass these figures in their trucks. So Cadillac, watch out for the solid state Toyota FJ300 EV! It’s coming !

Toyota to Offer High Performance Solid-State Batteries in 2020

Toyota to Offer High Performance Solid-State Batteries in 2020

www.autoevolution.com

Report: Toyota looking to commercialize solid state Li-ion battery in 2015-2020

The Nikkei reports that Toyota Motor Corp. and its partners the Tokyo Institute of Technology and the High Energy Accelerator Research Organization have devised a prototype solid-state Li-ion storage battery and aim to improve and then commercialize it in the 2015-2020 timeframe. Since the...

www.greencarcongress.com

Toyota battery R&D will allow all-electric car in 'a few years,' likely 2020

The signals are now unmistakable: Toyota will offer a battery-electric car for sale in 2020. After a decade of condemning electric cars as suitable only for the smallest vehicles in around-town use, the world's largest car company is changing its tune. Yet another news story out of Japan has...

www.greencarreports.com

Toyota in “production engineering” for a solid state battery, WSJ says - https://arstechnica.com/cars/2017/07/toyota-wants-to-commercialize-solid-state-ev-batteries-by-2022-reports-say/

Toyota will use Tokyo Olympics to debut solid-state battery electric vehicle

Solid-state batteries are the holy grail of battery technology for automakers, but it'll be a while before they reach production.

www.cnet.com

its about time we stop falling for this phantom ware

 

[Jetboy]

Let's hope it doesn't weight 8500 lbs. At 6k lbs it's already compromised for offroad performance. At 8500lbs - I think it's dirt road options are going to be pretty limited. If it can keep the weight in check, it'll be pretty great.

For me - I'd still prefer the PHEV option. Give me 50 miles of EV range and 25mpg and I'll be super happy. I'd get 90+% of my driving on EV mode and still have all the range I ever need on gas. Unfortunately EVs still aren't anywhere close to being functional tow vehicles for medium or longer distance. PHEV for me combines two vehicles into one. Otherwise I think I'd still need a ICE truck.

I'm pretty skeptical that it'll be 27mpg combined when I look at the Grand Highlander at 27mpg combined. The GH is a bit larger, but should have a significantly more efficient powertrain and lower drag. It has a very similar powertrain otherwise with a 2.4 turbo and hybrid pancake electric motor between engine and transmission. It does have 100hp EV output vs 50 in the LC. But I think it's probably a good comparator to consider. If it's at 27mpg, I'm curious how the LC would be higher. Seems like 23-25mpg combined is more realistic. Still a HUGE improvement over the outgoing LC200 or 4Runner, but not quite 27.

 

[NinjahGoose]

Let's hope it doesn't weight 8500 lbs. At 6k lbs it's already compromised for offroad performance. At 8500lbs - I think it's dirt road options are going to be pretty limited. If it can keep the weight in check, it'll be pretty great.

For me - I'd still prefer the PHEV option. Give me 50 miles of EV range and 25mpg and I'll be super happy. I'd get 90+% of my driving on EV mode and still have all the range I ever need on gas. Unfortunately EVs still aren't anywhere close to being functional tow vehicles for medium or longer distance. PHEV for me combines two vehicles into one. Otherwise I think I'd still need a ICE truck.

Honestly the best platform for the next couple decades for trucks and off-roading oriented vehicles would be the generator hybrids like Audi's e-tron Dakar racer. It's an EV with a 50ish kWh battery that also has a small 2L engine who's only purpose is to charge the battery. The engine is not attached to the drivetrain in any way.

The first company to make an EV truck/suv that has all the power of an EV with a tiny diesel or gas motor to keep it charged will win over the hold outs.

Gassed and Amped: Driving the Hybrid Audi RS Q e-tron Dakar Racer

Audi gives us a chance to take a spin in its gasoline-electric hybrid rally machine.

www.caranddriver.com

 

[Jetboy]

Honestly the best platform for the next couple decades for trucks and off-roading oriented vehicles would be the generator hybrids like Audi's e-tron Dakar racer. It's an EV with a 50ish kWh battery that also has a small 2L engine who's only purpose is to charge the battery. The engine is not attached to the drivetrain in any way.

The first company to make an EV truck/suv that has all the power of an EV with a tiny diesel or gas motor to keep it charged will win over the hold outs.

Gassed and Amped: Driving the Hybrid Audi RS Q e-tron Dakar Racer

Audi gives us a chance to take a spin in its gasoline-electric hybrid rally machine.

www.caranddriver.com

I think I'm generally in agreement. But I think it needs a direct drive for highway speeds to maximize fuel efficiency. The EV round trip efficiency isn't good enough to not have a direct drive option in most cases. Honda has one hybrid powertrain that only has one mechanical gear for the engine that is a direct drive option and only engages at highway speed. The rest of the time it's just as you describe with a motor/generator and an EV drive system. I think a system like that makes a lot of sense. It's a pretty simple mechanical clutch system.

One challenge I don't see being easily addressed is the mechanical linkage between front and rear axles in EV truck/SUV models. For the max possible traction, they have to be linked mechanically. No other drive system can match the peak friction of a mechanical system. It's just a physical property that can't be engineered around unless somehow they figure out time travel. There's a ton of engineering you can gain by giving up that driveline space and connection, but you also give up max performance in the technical terrain.

 

[Tigerstripe40]

Honestly the best platform for the next couple decades for trucks and off-roading oriented vehicles would be the generator hybrids like Audi's e-tron Dakar racer. It's an EV with a 50ish kWh battery that also has a small 2L engine who's only purpose is to charge the battery. The engine is not attached to the drivetrain in any way.

The first company to make an EV truck/suv that has all the power of an EV with a tiny diesel or gas motor to keep it charged will win over the hold outs.

Gassed and Amped: Driving the Hybrid Audi RS Q e-tron Dakar Racer

Audi gives us a chance to take a spin in its gasoline-electric hybrid rally machine.

www.caranddriver.com

If the engine isn't going to be attached to the drivetrain in any way, I'd like to think that a small turbine would be better.
It would be fuel agnostic (run it on gas, diesel, LPG, propane, WVO/SVO etc), and since it would likely only ever be run at full power, you could get better thermal efficiency than a ICE engine could get. Once economies of scale kick in and the fact that it wouldn't need to be rated for aircraft, they could be pretty cheap.

 

[subspd]

I think the 4XE is a great example of the challenges of the PHEV. I agree it would be ideal around town on full electric with the range of a ICE and the torque a of a diesel. BUT have you seen how complicated the cooling system is on the the Jeep 4XE? There is a youtube on it and it has 3 seperate cooling systems. That is a lot to go wrong.

 

[Jetboy]

I think the 4XE is a great example of the challenges of the PHEV. I agree it would be ideal around town on full electric with the range of a ICE and the torque a of a diesel. BUT have you seen how complicated the cooling system is on the the Jeep 4XE? There is a youtube on it and it has 3 seperate cooling systems. That is a lot to go wrong.

In fairness - have you seen the cooling system for the V35A (TTV6 Toyota engine)? I believe it also has at least 3 separate water cooling systems and 2 oil cooling circuits. It's a wildly complex design. I think the Lexus TX might have the right idea for a PHEV - an old school reliable NA v6 combined with a hybrid system. No turbos or complex engine systems.

Hard to imagine getting more complex than the Tundra/Sequoia hybrid setup. The engine alone looks like a mini petroleum refinery.

 

[NinjahGoose]

I think I'm generally in agreement. But I think it needs a direct drive for highway speeds to maximize fuel efficiency. The EV round trip efficiency isn't good enough to not have a direct drive option in most cases. Honda has one hybrid powertrain that only has one mechanical gear for the engine that is a direct drive option and only engages at highway speed. The rest of the time it's just as you describe with a motor/generator and an EV drive system. I think a system like that makes a lot of sense. It's a pretty simple mechanical clutch system.

One challenge I don't see being easily addressed is the mechanical linkage between front and rear axles in EV truck/SUV models. For the max possible traction, they have to be linked mechanically. No other drive system can match the peak friction of a mechanical system. It's just a physical property that can't be engineered around unless somehow they figure out time travel. There's a ton of engineering you can gain by giving up that driveline space and connection, but you also give up max performance in the technical terrain.

The Dakar racer has 3 motors; 2 for drivetrain and 1 for generator. For the Toyota vehicle design an electric motor attached to the front diff paired with a solid rear axle (like Magna's) would be the best application in my mind. These are still simple and proven components that allow for true mechanical lockers. The only con I can think of is they would need to scale up on the electric motors to compensate for drivetrain losses.

 

[NTTD]

I don't think EV's are going to be able to replace the Tacoma I own any time within the next 10 years, and even then, EV rapid charge will need to be as commonly available as gasoline stations for me to even remotely consider adopting one as a replacement to my Tacoma.

I feel that for now and for me, a hybrid truck is the best compromise between ICE and BEV

Absolutely. Even if charging stations were as, plentiful as [gas stations] are now that won't help me when I'm driving away from civilization.
Gas is power dense and easy to pack. If I had an EV I'd have to trailer a generator to go where I like to go!

Unless there is a fundamental breakthrough in battery tech that comes to market an EV won't be good for me other than perhaps a commuter.

its about time we stop falling for this phantom ware

Agreed. Excited scientists coupled with excited tech media tend to over-estimate when new discoveries will be practicable.

We've been promised flying cars "in a few years" since before I was born, and I'm old!


EDIT:[clarification]