4 banger LC, thoughts? (2 Viewers)

[Jetboy]

One other bonus of EVs. My friends with young drivers tell me a first gen Leaf is the perfect first car for kids. It's boring, it's not fast, it's safe, its cheap, and the biggest reason: they usually only have about 35 miles of range. So, they can't go very far.

 

[Jetboy]

Excellent info and sourcing @LazarusTaxa !

What I'm the most surprised is to learn that the USA is still massively using coal for electricity production.
Maybe instead of hating EVs on Internet, people should start writing mails to their congressman / governor if they live in a state that still has coal powerplants
Anything will be better, EV or not.

Most coal powerplants in the USA are on trajectories to end their useful lives by around 2035. That's about the pace of what it'll take to replace them. So, the glide path to phase them out is mostly already set without anything more. And no new ones coming online.

Where it gets slightly uncertain is that there are some private equity groups who have made at least initial inquiries on ones I'm familiar with to buy them from the utility to operate solely as bitcoin miners. That needs to be prohibited. There is no social value and lots of harm. Bitcoin is one of the worst developments to happen in the history of pollution because of how much pollution it creates for no benefit.

 

[ypyun]

here is the electricity generation by energy source in the usa. coal is about 20%.

9k tax refund sounds pretty good. to bad there is an income cap.

 

[FJhammer]

I’m sorry I just don’t accept the excuses that CAFE standards have handcuffed Toyota into not offering a conventional powertrain option or the other argument that the 2.4L hybrid is a superior motor.

Case and point, the GX550. If CAFE standards were too restrictive to offer a conventional powertrain, why are they offering the GX with the 3.4L TTV6? Wouldn’t that mandate the GX get the same restrictive treatment?
If the 2.4L hybrid was superior to the TTV6, why is the 3.4L only being offered in the upgraded Lexus? In what world would Toyota put the inferior motor into the Lexus variant?

I would also contend that the resale value of the conventional GX will significantly outperform the 250 for the sole reason of the hybrid powertrain. 20 years from now, it won’t be the latest and greatest the Portlandia man buns and soccer moms Toyota is trying to appeal to today. Likewise, it won’t be appealing to the traditionalists who don’t like the hybrid and wouldn’t touch a 20 year old battery with a 10 foot pole. Thus I predict the value of these will plummet in comparison to other Land Cruisers. Just my opinion.

 

[Jetboy]

I’m sorry I just don’t accept the excuses that CAFE standards have handcuffed Toyota into not offering a conventional powertrain option or the other argument that the 2.4L hybrid is a superior motor.

Case and point, the GX550. If CAFE standards were too restrictive to offer a conventional powertrain, why are they offering the GX with the 3.4L TTV6? Wouldn’t that mandate the GX get the same restrictive treatment?
If the 2.4L hybrid was superior to the TTV6, why is the 3.4L only being offered in the upgraded Lexus? In what world would Toyota put the inferior motor into the Lexus variant?

I would also contend that the resale value of the conventional GX will significantly outperform the 250 for the sole reason of the hybrid powertrain. 20 years from now, it won’t be the latest and greatest the Portlandia man buns and soccer moms Toyota is trying to appeal to today. Likewise, it won’t be appealing to the traditionalists who don’t like the hybrid and wouldn’t touch a 20 year old battery with a 10 foot pole. Thus I predict the value of these will plummet in comparison to other Land Cruisers. Just my opinion.

I think the idea is that each mfg gets to trade around emissions at some level. So, each TTV6 maybe needs to be paired with 2 or 5 or whatever number of Corollas. Depending on some complex set of factors Toyota probably determined that it would only be able to sell (I'm just making up a number) 35k 17mpg versions of the V6 SUVs. And maybe it also factors in a cost of $5k per v6 that it will use to reduce the price of the economy car it's relying on to balance out the equation. In that case it makes sense to only put it in the highest cost models where the buyers will be willing to pay the premium. And the LC250 probably can't as easily add another $5k or whatever it is to the price.

That's just a guess. The actual TTV6 engine is probably cheaper to produce than the turbo4 hybrid combo. I can't wait to drive them both. It might end up with the hybrid being a fantastic combo that's preferable anyway. I know that the TTV6 I've driven in the Tundra is great as far as power delivery and NVH.

 

[JohnPW]

I think the idea is that each mfg gets to trade around emissions at some level. So, each TTV6 maybe needs to be paired with 2 or 5 or whatever number of Corollas. Depending on some complex set of factors Toyota probably determined that it would only be able to sell (I'm just making up a number) 35k 17mpg versions of the V6 SUVs. And maybe it also factors in a cost of $5k per v6 that it will use to reduce the price of the economy car it's relying on to balance out the equation. In that case it makes sense to only put it in the highest cost models where the buyers will be willing to pay the premium. And the LC250 probably can't as easily add another $5k or whatever it is to the price.

That's just a guess. The actual TTV6 engine is probably cheaper to produce than the turbo4 hybrid combo. I can't wait to drive them both. It might end up with the hybrid being a fantastic combo that's preferable anyway. I know that the TTV6 I've driven in the Tundra is great as far as power delivery and NVH.

That is exactly my understanding of how the CAFE game is played. Probably why we only got a small number of max option, expensive LC200’s. They can only sell a certain number of gas guzzlers and they need maximum profit on each one, counteracted by economy models they sell at close to breakeven. Or you can buy emission credits from Tesla. Tesla is threatened by competitors selling EV’s at a loss just to hit CAFE targets, subsidized by high profit on gas guzzling trucks and SUV’s.

 

[Phillyd2]

I think that CAFE standards are fleet wide so I guess they average them all to come into compliance. Those standards are getting tighter so that skews what’s permitted.

And yes, it’s a political decision that’s ruled by politicians. No clue why the reasons these engines are in these trucks is not allowed to be mentioned but not my monkey, not my circus.

 

[Jetboy]

I think a bigger question is what happened that the TTV6 can only get 17mpg in a smallish midsize SUV? It was touted as a 40% thermal efficiency engine. Has anyone confirmed that rating? I mean - that's barely competitive with Toyota's own v8 models from 20 years ago.

Kieta Moritsu (head engineer) said that the 4cyl hybrid is not good enough to continue the LC250 through 2030 and Toyota will have to find another powertrain option to keep producing it - either PHEV or EV most likely. We know that the GX and LX are supposed to be going full EV by 2030. So - I'd guess the TTV6 is going to have a pretty short production life.

 

[Tigerstripe40]

I am perfectly OK with a 4Cyl Hybrid setup.
Kinda wished they'd have offered the TTV6hybrid with a poverty pack for the LC, but thats no big deal.
I am more disappointed with the lack of a removable top, but by now, I am used to not getting what I'd really like from Toyota...

 

[malba2366]

I think the idea is that each mfg gets to trade around emissions at some level. So, each TTV6 maybe needs to be paired with 2 or 5 or whatever number of Corollas. Depending on some complex set of factors Toyota probably determined that it would only be able to sell (I'm just making up a number) 35k 17mpg versions of the V6 SUVs. And maybe it also factors in a cost of $5k per v6 that it will use to reduce the price of the economy car it's relying on to balance out the equation. In that case it makes sense to only put it in the highest cost models where the buyers will be willing to pay the premium. And the LC250 probably can't as easily add another $5k or whatever it is to the price.

That's just a guess. The actual TTV6 engine is probably cheaper to produce than the turbo4 hybrid combo. I can't wait to drive them both. It might end up with the hybrid being a fantastic combo that's preferable anyway. I know that the TTV6 I've driven in the Tundra is great as far as power delivery and NVH.

Because Toyota has to meet the standard across irs entire fleet. So the bigger engines are saved for the vehicles that are more expensive which require a more refined powertrain to be competitive.

 

[Jetboy]

Because Toyota has to meet the standard across irs entire fleet. So the bigger engines are saved for the vehicles that are more expensive which require a more refined powertrain to be competitive.

Until they flip and then all of Lexus becomes EV and shares the credits back to the Toyota side.

But also Toyota sells the same engine in the $35k tundra. So it's not really exclusive in any meaningful sense. I think if the ttv6 is 17mpg and the hybrid is 27, the take rate on the V6 will be low anyway. And the PHEV should out perform the V6 easily in nearly every category, so that'll be the top engine I think once it comes out.

 

[malba2366]

Until they flip and then all of Lexus becomes EV and shares the credits back to the Toyota side.

But also Toyota sells the same engine in the $35k tundra. So it's not really exclusive in any meaningful sense. I think if the ttv6 is 17mpg and the hybrid is 27, the take rate on the V6 will be low anyway. And the PHEV should out perform the V6 easily in nearly every category, so that'll be the top engine I think once it comes out.

CAFE requirements are based on vehicle footprint. The Tundra is a much larger vehicle than the LC250 so it can have a lower fuel economy than a LC250, this is one of the reasons vehicles have been growing over the years. Also a full size pickup with a 4 cyl hybrid powertrain will be a non starter in a very competitive segment; the market for those pickups is much more significant to Toyota's bottom line than hardcore off-roaders who may look at a LC250. These fuel economy requirements have required balancing acts from all manufacturers, requiring smaller displacement turbo engines and hybrids in places no one would have thought 10-15 years ago. Bottom line the way this vehicle is positioned it will sell like hotcakes regardless of its powertrain.

It is doubtful that the PHEV will outperferform the TT V6, and I can not see them selling any if they try to charge a premium in it for the GX, especially considering that it will lead to the loss of the third row.

 

[Jetboy]

It is doubtful that the PHEV will outperferform the TT V6, and I can not see them selling any if they try to charge a premium in it for the GX, especially considering that it will lead to the loss of the third row.

I don't see any way it won't be significantly more powerful and faster. Like the RAV4. Toyota didn't seem to care. Once the battery is big enough for a PHEV, it's kinda hard not to give it better than ICE performance. And the 4cyl hybrid is going to be pretty close already for short distances with a tiny battery. Mighty be quicker 0-60 already.

 

[Phillyd2]

Almost all LC250 buyers won’t be hardcore off-roaders either. Third row for grandkids, MPG, etc. will be more of a selling point for most compared to lockers - other than so they can say that it has it.

 

[Jetboy]

No third row though. Odd choice IMO because I think it would be a big selling point.

That's why I think the 4runner is going to stay big.

 

[malba2366]

I don't see any way it won't be significantly more powerful and faster. Like the RAV4. Toyota didn't seem to care. Once the battery is big enough for a PHEV, it's kinda hard not to give it better than ICE performance. And the 4cyl hybrid is going to be pretty close already for short distances with a tiny battery. Mighty be quicker 0-60 already.

The power numbers have been published. The TTv6 produces a bit more more torque and horsepower than the turbo 4 hybrid. Performance will very likely be very similar between the 2 engines, but the Lexus is using the TT V6 because it will be more refined and the hybrid battery placement does not allow for the third row of seating.

I do not see them tuning these vehicles such that the Toyota version is quicker than the more expensive Lexus version.

 

[Tigerstripe40]

No third row though. Odd choice IMO because I think it would be a big selling point.

That's why I think the 4runner is going to stay big.

I figure if you need a third row, you'd want more power (meat bags full of salt water are kinda heavy) and would opt for the GX550 or Sequoia.

I am hoping the 4Runner gets a 2 door option with a removable top, to distinguish itself from the rest of the line

 

[JohnPW]

No third row though. Odd choice IMO because I think it would be a big selling point.

That's why I think the 4runner is going to stay big.

Third rows in these mid sized solid rear axle BOF vehicles are all pretty worthless, certainly including the 3rd row in my LC200. Even the third row in the new Sequoia is terrible. The buyer who truly needs a third row will buy the grand Highlander or similar.

 

[malba2366]

No third row though. Odd choice IMO because I think it would be a big selling point.

That's why I think the 4runner is going to stay big.

No third row because of the hybrid powertrain...battery placement makes the floor too high to allow for the third row seat. 4 runner will probably have to get smaller and more off road focused/less refined to occupy a lower price point. I would expect production will move to Mexico alongside the Tacoma as well to allow for the lower price point.

 

[doublethebass]

I also think they’ll drop the 3rd row now that the Grand Highlander is an option