3FE No Start

[jonheld]

Wait. What? Are you freakin' kidding me? On my day off? You mother f*cker.

Went through all the diagnostics, checked continuity on everything relevant, got all the right stuff, but no sparky from coil. Have a used/good igniter coming tomorrow. We'll see.

At least it's back in my driveway. Freakin' b*tch.

 

[itbrokeagain]

Ummmm bad day?

Sent from my Nexus S using IH8MUD

 

[jonheld]

Ummmm bad day?

No. Thursday.

 

[hawaiicruz]

Well at least you know how to fix it. How many miles on the clock?

 

[CJF]

Dang Jon,

This has irony written all over it.

I say you write the thread as a convesration with yourself: The first you posts up symptoms, then the second you posts up (excellent as always) advice along with a snarky comment or two thrown in. ;p

Keep us posted, and good luck.

Curtis

 

[jonheld]

Yea I know. I was partially laughing as I was cranking away. Funny thing, she started fine and I pulled out of my driveway and started down my street. Got to the first stop sign and she died. I was able to pull right over as I was on a hill. Cranked over just fine, so I cracked the cold start injector bolt and fuel sprayed out. Figured at that point it was spark related.

I called my neighbor Steve and he brought over his mint white FJ62 and towed me back up the hill so I could coast into my driveway.

Everything checked out. Anything that needs +12 has it. I checked the dissy coils at the ECU connector. Even swapped in my spare ECU for giggles. The only thing left is the igniter. This is also my second igniter. The original went intermittent and finally failed about 7 or 8 years ago.

And, yes, I checked fuses with a meter, not my eyeballs

 

[Kernal]

Is the ignitor specific to the 3FE 80 series only or is the same ignitor used for other models/years??

 

[jonheld]

I know the igniter/coil combination is different between the FJ62 and FJ80. Same basic 3FE motor, but slight differences.
I would assume that the 1FZFE coil/igniter is different as well.

3FE igniter: 89621-12010
1FZ igniter: 89621-26010

Looking at the schemos for 91 vs 96 and the pinouts are identical. The igniter generates a pulse that feeds the primary of the coil. I can't imagine it's all that different between the years. I wish I had an oscilloscope to verify amplitude. Can't really do that with a DMM. If the amplitude of the pulse is too great, it will roast the secondary of the coil over time.

 

[jonheld]

All fixed. Bad igniter. Peace and happiness has returned.

BTW, if any of you need parts, I STRONGLY recommend dealing with Jason here on MUD. His username is Arcteryx. He's got everything at reasonable prices. Of course I wanted overnight shipping so that kind of killed my savings, but what can you do?

 

[arcteryx]

Glad to hear you got it fixed. It arrived earlier than expected, that's a bonus! I pulled the engine this past weekend so I knew it was good unit. I hate it when shipping is more than the part, but sometime you need to do that. And thanks for the props too!

 

[george_tlc]

So, this is you 2nd failed igniter. How long since the first one failed? Have you checked your coil to ensure it is to spec and it isn't damaging the igniter over time?

The 1FZ igniter can be sourced quite cheaply on EBAY since it is also used on a variety of other similar vintage toyotas. I bought one several years ago for about $25 shipped. Plugged in AND GROUNDED to the body and it tested good. So, it's been a trail spare - of course it'll never fail since I have a spare waiting...

Glad you got it running quickly.

cheers,
george.

 

[Kernal]

johheld: what's your testing procedure for the ignitor itself?

 

[jonheld]

So, this is you 2nd failed igniter. How long since the first one failed? Have you checked your coil to ensure it is to spec and it isn't damaging the igniter over time?

The 1FZ igniter can be sourced quite cheaply on EBAY since it is also used on a variety of other similar vintage toyotas. I bought one several years ago for about $25 shipped. Plugged in AND GROUNDED to the body and it tested good. So, it's been a trail spare - of course it'll never fail since I have a spare waiting...

Glad you got it running quickly.

cheers,
george.

All valid points. The first one lasted about 12 years or so. Hard to remember exactly when it failed. Sorry, I'm old. Anyway, that was replaced with a coil/igniter combo from Cruiserparts.net. That lasted until now and was also replaced with a coil/igniter combo from Jason.

My idea of having a spare is exactly that. I'm sure the previous unit failed because I didn't have a spare handy. That's the way my truck is.

 

[jonheld]

johheld: what's your testing procedure for the ignitor itself?

AFAIK, without an oscilloscope, there is no testing procedure. I simply eliminated all other possibilities.

The igniter gets +12 and pulses from the ECU. It develops the tachometer signal to the tachometer which I could check on the diagnostic connector if I had a scope. It sends the primary ignition coil pulses out to the coil. That's pretty much it. I verified +12 and that's where my diagnosis ended for the igniter.

I really wish I had my old Tek 465B around when these sort of problems pop up.

 

[Kernal]

That explains why I couldn't find anything specific in the FSM, the testing flow chart says at the end---replace ignitor. So it's ECU > ignitor > coil > distributor?

 

[george_tlc]

That explains why I couldn't find anything specific in the FSM, the testing flow chart says at the end---replace ignitor. So it's ECU > ignitor > coil > distributor?

Yes, BUT the twist is that it's actually the distributor pick up coils that send the signal to the ECU that then sends the signal to the igniter to drive the coil to provide spark for the distributor to distribute.

A friend had his pickup coils fail (water/moisture/oil etc from a misconceived breather scheme that tee-ed into the diff/auto breathers) in the distributor and that is what prevented the ECU from getting valid timing signals to operate the igniter.

Also (at least in the '97 and maybe all obd2) models, the ECU does at least a primitive level check of the igniter and provides a CEL if it fails.

A spare (ebay etc) igniter is cheap and worth having on hand since it IS the unit that drives the coil (essentially the equivalent of the olden day points).

cheers,
george.

 

[jonheld]

George is correct. As I posted in another thread:

"Pulses are developed by the pick up coils in the distributor.
Those pulses go directly to the ECU and are re-timed according to the ECU's programming.
The ECU spits out a trigger pulse to the igniter which in turn fires the primary in the ignition coil."