3.4 in 40

[Jetboy]

I had a 2001 4R w/ 3.4L and it was a gas-thirsty balless wonder. I would never consider this 16-17 MPG 180-something HP engine for an FJ even if it were provided and installed free. 250-275 HP is not an unresonable starting point for any decent carb'd 350 SBC.

Jetboy, have you ever driven a carb'd SBC-powered FJ40? What's your source on those grossly low V8 numbers?

Take a look at any chevy truck repair manual for net hp numbers. Or wikipedia or really any other source. Stock carbed SBC's are rarely over 200hp and those are usually corevettes or muscle cars. Not many truck versions were over 200hp.

Something was wrong with your taco. Probably not replacing the O2 sensors. I routinely get 20mpg in my 4runner. I can pull 25 if a slow down to 65mph on the highway. I get about 18-19 towing my 17' sailboat around the mountains of Utah. Power isn't an issue. I may drop to 65 up some hills, but usually even then it's because I don't want to push the rpm's up too high. I don't think 4k rpms in a 3.4 is an issue at all.

Put a carbed sbc on a dyno. One of my buddies in Montana has a dyno at his shop. I've seen plenty of "400hp" small blocks put 200hp or less at the wheels. Sure they can be built, but a take-out from carbed 70's or 80's pickup is no where close to 250hp. Usually what I see is a hodge podge of mis-matched performance parts that all claim to add xxhp and the owner thinks that they can just add em all up and that's how much power they are making, which is rarely the case.

Either way, the fact that most people are even happy with 289s and 305s with less hp than the 3.4 seems to indicate that a 3.4, if in good condition, would be a decent option. Just because your truck sucked doesn't mean all 3.4's do.

 

[Jetboy]

Right now? Around 2 lbs... better known as a frame horn on a shelf Back then, full bodied with hard top, full cage, and 35s

A stock Tacoma weighs 2600lbs but a stock FJ40 weighs in over 3k... I've seen numbers from 3200 to 3500lbs. If you drop that 500lbs(BS made up difference between 2F and 3.4L), you are still several hundred lbs over a Tacoma stock weight.

As I mentioned, anything more than a hundred or two in the back of my tacoma and it noticed. 500lbs and it hated it.

And so far, all we have talked about is straight weight. Now take into account aerodynamics and it is starting to have problems.

My taco was 190hp. (1999) A 1976 Caddy 500 made 190hp(that number is pulled from chilton). Are you REALLY going to argue that a 3.4L is even in the same ball park? The cady is 360ft-lbs while the 3.4L is a VERY low 200. You can't judge engines strictly on hp Nor can you argue strictly based upon torque numbers. The better way to try to compare engines for a wheeler is by torque curve

As for the "you can do all these performance mods" argument... sure, you can... but you sacrifice longevity to gain that power. Plus, by the time you get a 3.4l even close to the range of a mild small block, you've just spent 5x as much on it.

Something may have been wrong with your taco. My experience with a 3rd gen 4runner is that the power is more than adequate.

And curb weight of a 4x4 extended cab taco is 3515lbs with a manual and 3540 lbs with an auto. Fj40 curb weight is 3263. Roughly 300lbs less than your taco. And the 2f weighs between 7-800lbs. A 5vzfe weighs around 450-500lbs fully dressed. So you'll drop at least another 200 lbs in the swap. That brings the fj40 around 500lbs less. Now if you take the top off your getting even lighter. Adding offroad gear puts some back on.

Anyway the numbers don't lie. Curb weights are not far off. If anything a stock fj40 is lighter than a taco or 4runner.

The SBC is cheaper for more power. No question. If power is the ultimate goal, SBC is the way to go. They are also less reliable engines. It's all a trade off. There is no reason why a 3.4 would not be adequate in a 500lb lighter vehicle.


And, yes the 3.4 would do as much work, or create just as much mechanical energy, at peak HP as the caddy 500.

 

[Jetboy]

Jet, you are failing at some reading comprehension. Torque is a better measure of performance for offroad rigs. Any SBC will be making probably 100+ ft-lbs of torque more than a 3.4L.

As I pointed out, a 1976 cady BIG BLOCK is rated at 190hp... same as a tacoma... but it has TWICE the torque of a tacoma. If you are gonna try to argue that a 3.4L tacoma is the same performance as a cady because of the hp ratings, please start passing out whatever you are smoking

My Tacoma is low mileage(135k) and well maintained. It didn't come close to the power of my 5.0L TBI that I had in my cruiser and that was rated at under 190hp. IT can maintain speed AND have passing power with 35s and 4.1 gears... a tacoma will not. Again, compare torque numbers.

No you are failing at basic physics. Torque that matters is applied torque at the wheels. Horse power is a measure of energy produced. Energy can be converted to torque at the wheels with proper gearing. It's all a question of gearing to determine applied torque.

Just because the SBC creates it's energy at a different rpm range doesn't mean it has more. It just means your gearing is wrong.

 

[craptabulous]

Which stock sbc has a carb and nets 310hp? What model did that come in?

Most sbc swaps I see are old carbed 70's or 80's sbc. If those are adequate, the 3.4 should be too. For example a l48 from a late 70's corevette. It had 180 hp and 270 ft/lbs after they changed to measuring net rather than gross hp. Carbed 305's had between 140 and 165 hp and about 240-250 ftlbs. Again it seems most fj40's are happy with that power. Very similar to the 3.4. While they may have had a very slight edge in torque, after 20-30 years of age they have most likely lost at least a portion of that power due to inaccurate spark from a worn out distributor, poor carb tuning, etc. Most drivers seem to think that the power from those old sbc's is adequate. If anyone wants to pay for the dyno I"ll put my 4runner on and we can compare hp at the wheels from say a common donor, 81 stock chevy pickup, and a 3.4. I'd guess the numbers won't be that far off.

Now a newer vortec sbc or even a properly build older version is going to blow the 3.4 away. Heck even a TPI would. But the common, old stock carbed small block from the 80's that does a fine job of pushing a 40 down the road just isn't all that powerful. I think the 3.4 would compare very well, plus it's a lot lighter and smaller. And a lot more reliable.

oh sorry i didn't know people got piece of crap worn out small blocks with 2 barrel carbs and worn out distributors , don't even change the spark plugs eh ?

i would of thought most people rebuilt there small blocks before they installed them but hey , just put in a old smog engine from the 80's . it would still put down more torque at a lower rpm .

you think a 3.4L with 300 ,000 km's is going to put down half of what it did when it was new ?

 

[Poser]

oh sorry i didn't know people got piece of crap worn out small blocks with 2 barrel carbs and worn out distributors

Some of us don't build/run that used junk....



Further-


I am aware of many carbureted and TBI Chevy 350’s that are well over 250,000 miles and have not been apart.

 

[Fast Eddy]

Which stock sbc has a carb and nets 310hp? What model did that come in?

A 1970 LT1 Camaro/Corvette 350 was 370hp with a 4bbl; pick of the litter.

A 1969 dz302 was rated 290hp, but if you build one stock and put it on a dyno it will make about 400hp at a ridiculously high rpm.

Neither much good at low end torque, but you asked...

 

[dgangle]

here's a friendly offer for you Jetboy....

let's drive each others 40's. You drive my 350 SBC, I drive your 3.4L and we'll decide which has more power and is more fun to drive.

So bring your 3.4L FJ40....oh, that's right. You don't have one and you are arguing on the internet on a subject that you have no personal experience with.

No personal attack , just a friendly offer. And I have owned four 3.4L Taco/4R and they have all had comparable gas mileage and performance. Maybe enough for you but certainly not for me.

 

[dgangle]

Bueller?



Bueller?

 

[Jetboy]

I tell you what. I'll race your sbc, lighter weight fj40 with my 3.4 heavier automatic 4 runner with 170k miles and we'll see which one gets to 60 first. We can go the scale first to prove that a 4runner is heavier than an fj40 too. That should be a pretty good indication of the amount of actual "work" each engine will do.

 

[dgangle]

apples to oranges but would be fun. I thought we were talking about a 3.4 vs a 350 in an FJ40. ....oh, that's right. You don't have one.

After we "race" we will hook up to a 2K LB trailer and do it again up a mountain. Should be a good comparison of HP and torque.

 

[Jetboy]

apples to oranges but would be fun. I thought we were talking about a 3.4 vs a 350 in an FJ40. ....oh, that's right. You don't have one.

After we "race" we will hook up to a 2K LB trailer and do it again up a mountain. Should be a good comparison of HP and torque.

I don't have one. I wish I did. I'd gladly take a 3.4 over my 2f.

If you want we can just put each on a flatbed and do a timed tow up a hill. That way the weight will be exactly the same.

 

[dgangle]

I'd take a 3.4 over a 2F in an FJ40 too. Anyday. See? We CAN agree on something

You lost me on the flatbed thing. What will that have to do with proving anything other than one weighs more than the other?

I thought our friendly debate was over the performance/suitability/superiority of a 3.4 vs a simple 350 SBC in an FJ40.

 

[AKA DUKE]

This sounds like fun, cant wait to hear what happens LOL I am no expert thats for sure just know what I like. Me I am a SBC kinda guy LOL nothing like the sound of a Small Block. Oh and mine only has a 305 from PO. when its on its death bed will upgrade to either a 350 or a 383.

 

[nickwood48]

There is a lot of misinformation in this thread.

I have been an advocate of a 5VZ swap for quite some time – but I know it’s a lonely road since nobody seems to like the idea. I am not at all against a 350, I am personally thinking of one myself, but if you honestly look at the 5VZ it makes a lot of sense.

Let’s start with some facts:

Weights (rounded up) – Tacoma at 3600 lbs and the FJ40 at 3300 lbs or 3000 lbs for comparison purposes when considering the loss of weight over the 2F.

People always complain about “maximum torque is at xx RPM, nobody is going to rev an engine that high”, who cares….maximum torque is a moot point, it’s the torque curve that really matters. Let’s say you have max torque at 6,000 rpm, you may still have 95% of that torque available at 2,000 rpm, which is really what we care about here. With that concept applied to the 5VZ, sure max torque is at 3,600 rpm, but you still have 175 ft/lbs from 1600 RPM on up. So a 5VZ at 1600 RPM compares to and/or eclipses the following engines that are considered ‘torquey’;
- Max torque of 3B (160 ft/lbs)
- Max torque of 2H (180 ft/lbs)
- Max torque of those infamous overloaded 200tdi/300tdi defenders driving through 8’ streams in the camel trophy (180 ft/lbs give or take)
- Not far off maximum torque of a 1HZ diesel (5VZ pretty much matches it like for like from 1,400 rpm to 2,000 rpm, from there on the 5VZ pulls away)

I think when people talk about a torquey feeling engine; they really mean flywheel effect more than anything. Diesels, and 2F’s for that matter, feel torquey chugging along at 1,800 rpm because they have all that reciprocating mass keeping them from stalling. Same concept with motocross bikes vs. enduro bikes, same engine, completely different feel, torque is the same but it’s much harder to stall. Seat of the pants feel is much different, but the numbers don’t lie. I would most definitely use a heavier flywheel for this exact reason, http://www.lceperformance.com/5VZ-38lb-Billet-Steel-Flywheel-High-Torque-p/1051007.htm, to try to offset the lighter reciprocating mass of the 5VZ.

I get an honest 21-22 mpg on the highway at 60-65 mph, with a best of 23.5 and a low of about 18.5. That 18-23 mpg range is pretty consistent for a good running 5VZ with correct gears. I can’t begin to extrapolate what that would mean in a 40, but I would garner a guess that you would be closer to the 16-19 mpg range with a moderate well thought out build on 33’s with overdrive and driven moderately.

Toyota engineered and designed a Tacoma to have a GVW 5,100 lbs and I have no doubt it would be pretty sluggish at that weight. But it by no means is being ‘overworked’ in the sense of it exceeding its design. I also suspect that GVW is more indicative of axle/frame strength than engine output. A better comparison would be to compare the vehicular weight with the towing capacity to take out the axle/frame part of the equation. In doing this you see the engine rated to pull over 8,000 lbs, which is a lot more than its going to see in a fully built 40.

Conversely, Chevy engineered a 350 V8 for a 4,300 lb truck (1/2 ton 4x4 extended cab) with a towing capacity of 6,000 lbs, or a net weight of 10,300 lbs, give or take.

At the end of the day, the numbers really point to the 350 being TO MUCH engine for a 40, if you look at the numbers from an engineering/mechanical perspective. Since I know there is no such thing as to much fun, a V8 is probably the way to go for most. But there are those guys out there that appreciate Toyota quality, efficiency and ‘enough’ engine to get the job done but not over the top – for those I think the 3.4 makes a lot of sense.

None of that takes into account the available supercharger, since it’s a) expensive and b) requires premium fuel. But for $2,700 you can have 220ft/lb at 1,800 rpm, up to a max of about 290 ft/lbs.

 

[Poser]

Hurry up and build it....

 

[dgangle]

justify it any way you want. IF the 3.4 was so f'ing awesome there would be 10 companies making adapter kits/harnesses/whatever for the FJ40. I have seen more late model Vortec/LT1/LS1 conversions than anything else so that has to tell you something. I have NEVER seen a 3.4 conversion in a 40 other than reading about one build on Pirate. I have owned mutiple vehicles with this engine and power & fuel usage-wise, they all sucked. I doubt mine were lemonds and your were the bomb.

I'm all about thinking outside the box and enjoy seeing others' creativity to inspire me, but just because something CAN be done doesn't mean it is the best compromise of cost, effort and result.

Build it, get data, tally the costs and let your friends drive it. Until then all this is just hypothesizing and daydreaming.

 

[whitetaco95]

i started a tread to find pics and info on putting a 3.4 in a 40. Didn't mean to start arguments. It seems that the toy vs chevy motor gurus knock heads worse than chevy vs ford and so on. Definately been hi jacked. I have a chevy and it is the biggest piece of crap i have ever owned. Everything has gone wrong except the motor. Everything i have had that was toyota earned its keep and was extremely well to me and easy to work on. My chev pisses m off everytime i look at it. The truck is worth 6k and over 12k in two years put into it to keep it on the road. Most friends and such around me have chevys and are always blowin motorsand bearings and such and i have vowed never to deal with anything other than toyota. I thought it was a good idea to buy "american" but the more i fixed the piece the more chinese and brazilian parts i found. I could make a 10 page list on the reasons why i want only toyota. So as starter of this thread searchin for some 3.4 swap knowlege, quit the bickerin. I would rather put a 22r in a 40 then anymore chevy crap. I dont plan on racing a 40.

 

[Poser]

i started a tread to find pics and info on putting a 3.4 in a 40. Didn't mean to start arguments. It seems that the toy vs chevy motor gurus knock heads worse than chevy vs ford and so on. Definately been hi jacked. I have a chevy and it is the biggest piece of crap i have ever owned. Everything has gone wrong except the motor. Everything i have had that was toyota earned its keep and was extremely well to me and easy to work on. My chev pisses m off everytime i look at it. The truck is worth 6k and over 12k in two years put into it to keep it on the road. Most friends and such around me have chevys and are always blowin motorsand bearings and such and i have vowed never to deal with anything other than toyota. I thought it was a good idea to buy "american" but the more i fixed the piece the more chinese and brazilian parts i found. I could make a 10 page list on the reasons why i want only toyota. So as starter of this thread searchin for some 3.4 swap knowlege, quit the bickerin. I would rather put a 22r in a 40 then anymore chevy crap. I dont plan on racing a 40.

Saved.

 

[dgangle]

Nobody's bickering. This has nothing to do with one brand versus another and everything to do with pointing out the advantages of a more common choice that is different from your ideas. The reasoning of staying all Toyota is going to cost you more money, have compromises and seriously complicate your project.

22R? Now you are just being silly and I'm starting to see where you are coming from. You have your mind made up and are not going to like any advice that is different from what you have already decided to do. Just you don't know how.

Personally, I like to get as much as I can for as little amount of money spent. When the talking stops and IF the work ever begins, you are going to go down a road with opposite results. It's your prerogative. Go for it.

I give up.

 

[ken_79-fj40]

Cruiser Solutions actually did a restoration of a 40 with a 22r/5 speed in it a few years back. The owner installed the driveline they basically did an aluminum tub and a nice cosmetic freshening. Ted said it wasn't very quick but actually worked better than they expected. The truck had stock size tires on it. From all the p22r powered pickups i've had with 33's and stock gears I can bet a 22r with any oversized tires in a cruiser would be a total mutt. I actually saw a 40 with a 3.4 swap on eBay a year or so ago and liked the idea. I've had 4 vehicles with 3.4's myself and like them. My automatic 4 runner is kind of a dog but the 3 5 speed tacomas I have had actually went pretty good. With the right gearing and a soft top aluminum tub 40 it would probably work pretty good. I wound up rebuilding my 2F instead of a swap but a 3.4 was on my short list when I was considering that route. yes it's a lot cheaper to do a chevy swap and it will make more power and work better with oversized tires and stock gears, not require a centered diff, etc, etc. But properly done a 3.4 could certainly work too. It would just be expensive and fairly difficult to do in comparison. But if I had the drivetrain and a 40 without a drivetrain I would certainly do it.