2FE vs 3FE

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woytovich

woytovich

Science...
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If I have access to a complete running FJ62 with 3FE and my 2F is running well and my goal is fuel injection in my 86FJ60 - let's assume both engines are in similar working order.... I am seeking opinions on the "better" path to take.

I'm wondering which is "easier" (less work and/or fewer things to deconstruct and figure out) and if one or the other is likely to yield "better" results.

Thanks
 
3FE would probably be much easier though performance of a 2FE would certainly be much better. There are pros to the 3FE like better accessories (higher amp alternator, no leaking PS fluid on the smog pump) but you do need to plumb to the PS pump's new location. Alternator wiring needs to be modified a bit. Nothing Earth shattering but the little things do add up. The higher compression and better breathing of a 3FE top end with the long stroke torque of the 2F bottom end make for a nice combination. Many will say, I an I'd agree, that that the 2FE is the engine Toyota should have built with 7 mains of course.

Since you started this I'd like to ask the 2FE community how their engines are holding up. I was looking at engines the other day and noticed a few 2FE's for sale with bottom end issues which might suggest that an aging 2F block will see a reduced life span under the increased torque and RPM band of the fuel injected head work.

Frank
 
I already have a larger alternator on my 2F and it is Jim C desmogged. I'll be upgrading to a Saginaw PS pump soon as well.

I hope to hear from others as well.
 
3FE swap is going to be your "easier" path as you will be more doing a plug n play type swap. With the 2FE you MAY get better power and low end grunt but the trade-off would really be negligible as you will be putting a lot of tweaking, tuning, and tinkering time into the system to get everything right.
 
I struggle with the same dilemma @woytovich. I currently have everything to do the 3fe swap on my 60. Recently my decent running, but oil burning machine of a 2f decided to completely turn on me and loose a bearing, rod I presume. I have since gone back and forth myself on which path to take, I love simple easy carburetors, when it comes to traveling the country in a vintage truck, a engine malfunction can more easily be fixed on the side of the road without EFI, especially antiquated 3fe EFI technology. So my thought process has put me back into wanting a rebuilt 2F with a carb. and save my 3fe or 2fe eventually project for something that I don't want to travel the country with and instead for a wheeling rig.

Just my .02, stick to simple if your going to cruise your 60 long distance, remote locations, 3fe is simple, 2f is simpler. 2FE is complicated....but awesome from what I've heard, great power, great torque, with smooth multi port fuel delivery, sounds like a great combo for a modified rig
 
My 60 is largely a wheeling rig. This last weekend while out wheeling (rock crawling) I got into a nose-up situation 3 times where the truck stalled and wouldn't run at idle... I was staring at the treetops. This only added to the difficulty of the situation. Fuel injection would eliminate that issue.
 
From my experience building a 2FE in my '84 I think the 2FE is easier. The accessories all stay in the "right" places for the FJ60. I only had to adjust the cooling lines to adapt the 3FE thermostat housing to the 2F cooling system. For my swap I pulled all the wires out of the FJ62 harness that were connected to the EFI and used those. The rest of the wiring stayed stock FJ60. IIRC there were maybe 5 wires from the EFI system that connected to the rest of the truck. The complete fuel system from the FJ62 needs swapped in with either swap. The FJ62 air cleaner system bolts right in. There was enough flexibility in the parts to accommodate the extra deck height of the 2F block. I used the 3FE exhaust manifolds and built a y-pipe to connect with the FJ60 exhaust. In place of the expensive 3FE specific O2 sensors I used standard GM 4 wire O2 sensors - worked fine as were are only 2 different types of o2 sensor at the time. I used a 3FE valve grind gasket set from Toyota to mate the head to the motor. Jim C. rebuilt the 3FE head for me with Chevy valves (pics are floating around MUD comparing it to a 2F head). I cut the gas pedal attachment out of the firewall of the donor FJ62 so I could bolt the pedal and throttle cable to the FJ60 firewall (after welding the firewall section into my FJ60).

As for tuning I only needed to adjust the idle air screw/passage and the EFI covered the rest with no issues I was aware of. It just worked great. No pump the gas pedal this many times and hold the choke about here and pray on a cold morning: get in, insert key, turn key, go. I had GM TBI on the same truck before the 3FE deal; I'd do 3FE again before doing another TBI swap on a 2F. It just worked better IMHO. A search should turn up more of my comments in other 2FE threads.

Nick
 
I did a write up on my 3FE swap, search on my screen name and "write up", it should pop up near the top.

I want to discuss the simplicity comments. A 2FE and 3FE are equally "complicated". A block is a block, pipes and wires still go to accessories, the complications are in the FE which is a wash. As far as reliability, I'd say the 3FE is far more set it and forget it than the 2F. The old style FE is actually very basic and very reliable. It is not as powerful or efficient as modern FE engines but it's a cruiser engine, I'll leave it at that.

One thing to consider, a 3FE is still 100+ HP shy of what would come in a modern vehicle so while it will run circles around a 2F it still will leave you floored at 55MPH in 4th gear to get up hills loaded with gear. These are hills that would have had a 2F pulling 45 MPH in 3rd gear. From what I have read, with my H55F and a 2FE (high 200's lb for torque) I'd be pulling hills in 5th alongside the rest of the traffic at 70.

I will say that the engine building aspects of the 2FE will probably be more work than the accessory plumbing/wiring aspects of the 3FE.

In the end, if you have the time and money, I'd go for the added performance of the 2FE. If you need to get the truck back on the road and want to at least try to keep costs under control (swaps always cost more than one thinks...), the 3FE is the better choice.

Frank
 
To clarify: my goal is to run fuel injected, nothing more is necessary. I want/need to keep my H55f/Marlin ToyBox/Split Case so whatever solution I end up with needs to mate to that.
 
All things equal, you are opening up the engine which usually causes money expenditure and your labor time. It's hard not to do head work when the head is off right?

I'd say read up on some 2FE threads vs. 3FE swaps and get a feel for it. If you have a 3Fe sitting there and don't mind using the more restrictive 2F exhaust with a Y pipe (I went 2 cats (CA emissions) and larger cat back...) you can swap for probably costs under a grand.

Frank
 
woytovich said:
Frank, you imply that a 2FE conversion is more expensive than a 3FE... why?
Click to expand...
I don't know that he is necessarily referring to costly in the essence of $$$$ more that it is costly in TIME.

Here's basically how I view it...
3FE swap into a 2F truck...
- Drop engine in and adjust motor mounts
- Plumb necessary items such as PS, ALT, BATT, etc.
- Covert exhaust to match 3FE manifolds
- Run necessary wiring for added PCM that controls FE
- Find mounting place for FE PCM
- Run fuel line plumbing for FE system (including install of electric fuel pump)
After that you are pretty much done with the swap

2FE mod....
- Locate good donor 3FE with good top end
- Remove necessary parts from 3FE
- Remove necessary parts from 2F
- Machining of ???? (not really sure if any machining of head, manifold, etc is needed)
- Re-organize necessary components from 3FE to 2F
- Plumb 3FE components on 2F mounts
- Swap BATT location
- Run necessary wiring for added PCM that controls FE
- Find mounting place for FE PCM
- Run fuel line plumbing for FE system (including install of electric fuel pump)
- Block off 2F fuel pump location
- Tweaking and tuning of modified system to work


While I am sure that both systems will require some tweaks and tuning of their systems but figure that would be much more prevalent and time consumptive on the 2FE vs. the stock 3FE. One thing when I was thinking of doing this was the fact that I THOUGHT I remembered talk about the change in the compression ratio when you change the head to the 3FE head. With that said, what other items may be "gotchas" in such a swap that would require some increased knowledge and understanding.
 
I did not have to swap my battery with the 3FE. Is that required with the 2FE swap? If so that is a fair bit of work.

For both, I would recommend an FJ62 tank rather than an inline pump. I tried the latter with my 2F fuel tank but the 2F tank scavenges poorly when low where the FJ62 tank does a better job and has the integrated fuel pump too which is cleaner and makes for 2 less places for fuel to leak.

I bought the FJ62 PS lines and just extended the alt wires to get mine to work. You will have to have some AC hoses made to connect the 3FE pump to the condenser core that you won' t have to do with a 2FE.

What tweaking has to be done to the FE version? The computer adjusts itself. Unless the TPS is out of adjustment, there isn't much to do other than start the 2/3FE, burp it, and go.

Frank
 
From my 2FE build...

The battery didn't move.
The computer mounts on the same mounts the FJ62 used.
The FJ62 tank and lines make that part simple.
There is a fuel pump block-off plate on the side of a 3F block IIRC. Simple to make one from some aluminum plate if not.
No machining necessary to mate the 3FE head to the FJ60 2F block. I might have done a little grinding on the front 3FE exhaust manifold to clear the FJ60 power steering pump/bracket...
I made no adjustments to the computer. I did have to adjust the idle bypass screw IIRC then the motor ran perfectly.

Nick
 
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