24V Alternator not charing till 2,200 RPM--?

[LCDiesel60]

24V Alternator not charging/kicking on till 2,200 RPM--

Has anyone heard of this problem before?--Originally the alt would 'kick in' at about 1,000 RPM, then the dash warning light would go out and fuel water amber light as well---once the engine hit that RPM from then on it was charging, even at idle.

Took it in for a rebuild so that it was 'perfect and ready for a long trip', had the normal rebuild plus doubled the amps (re-wound--I believe about 50 amps now)--now the rebuild kicks on the first time at about 2,200 RPM, then charges fine after that--even at lower RPM--

ANY IDEAS...? IS THIS NORMAL--new to LC diesels..I don't think this is 'normal' but looking for ideas and thoughts--already taken it back to the alt shop and they re-worked it a bit..?

Thanks for any input/help!
LCDiesel60

 

[Lost]

mine is kinda like that, it just takes about a minute after startup to fully maintain the charge. mine was recently rebuilt maybe 15k km ago.

only thing i can think is the rebuild shop might of done something

 

[shancerlelby]

mines the same, till i spike it over 1000rpm it charges well below 24volt and the battery light and filter light are on. hows the condition of your belt? slightly loose maybe?

 

[87 HJ60]

2200 rpm sounds high. I also have to rev it a bit beyond 1000 rpm to get the filter light to go out.
Why did you have to get the alternator rebuilt in the first place? Did they replace the brushes when they rebuilt your alternator?

 

[eleblanc]

I had the same issue after my alternator shop rebuilt my alternator. They ended up putting the rotor of a hj60. And just like you it wouldn't charge at all at idle. I ended up getting a smaller pulley machined and that fix the problem.

Tell your alternator rebuilt shop to put a original rotor in, or have a pulley machined. I might have a thread about this.

But 2,200 is high, mine needed about 1200rpm to kick in before i changed pulley.

See this thread and page 2 for the picture of now pulley

https://forum.ih8mud.com/diesel-tech-24-volts-systems/265723-bj42-alternator-output.html

Has anyone heard of this problem before?--Originally the alt would 'kick in' at about 1,000 RPM, then the dash warning light would go out and fuel water amber light as well---once the engine hit that RPM from then on it was charging, even at idle.

Took it in for a rebuild so that it was 'perfect and ready for a long trip', had the normal rebuild plus doubled the amps (re-wound--I believe about 50 amps now)--now the rebuild kicks on the first time at about 2,200 RPM, then charges fine after that--even at lower RPM--

ANY IDEAS...? IS THIS NORMAL--new to LC diesels..I don't think this is 'normal' but looking for ideas and thoughts--already taken it back to the alt shop and they re-worked it a bit..?

Thanks for any input/help!
LCDiesel60

 

[prado t]

During INITIAL START-UP most Toyota 24V alternators do not charge for the first 30 seconds to a minute, then the amp guage or voltmeter climbs up to normal operating levels. IE; it will read low under 24V then within a minute it will or should climb to normal. On a cold diesel you shouldnt be reving it up to 2200rpm within the first minute.:whoops:

 

[canucksafari]

I've noted that on both my rigs (OEM) it is temperature dependent and presume it is because of the glow system sucking power after start-up. I know my glow relays are also attached to a coolant temp sensor. A start-up in the winter and the volts on the volt meter will stay at 24V for about 3-5 minutes or so or until I start driving. Start a cold engine on a warm summer day (or a warm engine in the winter) and you get charging volts right away.

 

[LCDiesel60]

Thanks all for the input--and ideas everyone--
I had the alt. rebuilt as I'm going through each system of the rig to make sure in good shape for a long trip/adventure--rather do preventative maintenance than crisis repairs--STONE, in BC Canada talked about the higher amps (doubling) helping with voltage draws and winch use--so had the alt amps doubled as well.

Prado T--You are right--definitely don't want elevated RPM at cold start--which I don't do--but driving down the road after a few minutes and still seeing the warning light/fuel-water light on is a problem--so then kick up the RPM to 2,200 to 2,500 then the alt kicks-in.

Canucksafari--I can understand the 'glow system' affecting the alt/charging gauge if cold and still on for a bit--but I've had this problem even when warm after driving; stop the engine, re-start it and it's showing 22 to 24 volts--throttle up slow or fast and it finally kicks-in at 2,200-2,500 rpm--so same whether cold or warm.....once it has 'kicked-in' then it will charge at idle....

Eleblanc--this is an HJ60 alt in an HJ60 rig (2H)--I understand the principle of a smaller pulley speeding up the alt rpm without engine rpm speed--have you had any problems with too high of RPM on the highway trips--over working the alt?--For now I don't want to spend anymore money, but rather have the alt shop fix the 'problem'--whatever that might be--I'm thinking something to do with doubling the amp output doubled the RPM trigger point for some reason--since the 'kick-on' RPM is now just a bit more than doubled from what it was--

Thanks again all--
LCDiesel60
Oregon

 

[87 HJ60]

When you say that the alternator was "rebuilt" what really was done to it other than it was rewound for a higher output?
As I asked previously, how are the brushes of the alternator? I had a problem similar to this a couple of years ago where I had to rev the engine quite a bit higher than normal for the filter light to go out. Eventually it got to a point where the light wouldn't go out. I took the brush cover off the alternator and saw that the brushes were worn right down. Replaced the brushes and the problem was fixed....
Check the brushes.

 

[LCDiesel60]

Hi 87HJ60--
Yes, the 'whole thing' was rebuilt: new bearings, brushes, re-wound for double amp output, new internal electronics to handle the higher amps plus new other internal electrical parts--I had the old ones to view as well--took it off and had them re-do it and they added heavier duty internals, cleaned the case, re-painted pulley-- and bench tested--they thought it was OK--checked it on the rig and my rig parts and all are OK, but still the alt doesn't perform properly--it seems to not be creating a 'stator field' until higher RPM, like an older era generator would function--as best I can remember from high school auto shop class ....feels like one of those 'LC fixes' you never would have started--

OTHER: 87HJ60--what kind of USA fuel MPG are you getting--?

Thanks again,
LCDiesel60

 

[Freewheel]

Hey LCDiesel,

I have the same problem with mine. If you search for "charge lamp relay" you will get some additional information. There is a relay in your left side kick panel that probably has a cold or broken solder joint in it. Take the relay apart and resolder it and things should get better.

I was having to rev mine to 2200 as well to get the charge lights to go out. _(this was after replacing alt brushes) There are several posts about this problem - over time the legs of the relay break the solder on the circuit board in a hairline crack which, when you rev, gets bridged by the higher voltage (at least that is the theory)

I had the cracks and when I resoldered the relay, the speed I needed to rev to went down to about 1200 rpm. Still a bit of a pain, but much easier on the cold engine than revving to 2200.

One day I will replace the relay altogether to see if it fixes the problem, but since it's working pretty well, I have just left it -as you have noticed, once the relay trips, everything works fine. I've been driving my truck like this for a couple of years.

I'll try to watch this thread if you need more info. But please search first - there's lots of info on MUD about this issue... this is one of those wacky problems that really makes me realize why forums like this are so important! Also , If you fix the problem, please report back with your results.

Oh and I get between 17 and 22 US mpg. Mixed city and hilly mountain highway driving - very few nice long flat stretches to get my mileage up...

 

[LCDiesel60]

Hi Freewheel and thanks for the ideas:
-The alt. shop thought it was my relay and did the soldering you talked about.
-I have a spare relay and tried it and no change.
-I then tested the relay as per the factory book instructions and it passed the test.

Thanks for the reminder about searching--I did try that...the challenge I find is knowing what search phrases to use...being newer to MUD I never want to embarrass myself for not looking but obviously my effort..

Relay--I'm going to try an order a 'new relay' and try that before pulling the alt again--trying 2 used ones that tested OK should statistically be sufficient--but want to be sure before pulling again--just hate to spend more money..

Thanks for the fuel input--my Canadian 86HJ60 has been in my shop more than I've driven it, since I decided to do all the maintenance and mods together rather than spread out over 10 years--my goal is to make this a nice daily driver as a company vehicle-got high 20's in one fuel mpg test, but not sure how accurate that is--need to get the speedo tested before getting too excited about those numbers..

Thanks for monitoring this thread--I need all the help I can get from those 'who have traveled this path before me'...I want to save all the hard learning curves I can--as there are already enough--

Take care,
LCDiesel60
Oregon

 

[Isaacjohnstar]

LCDiesel60- did you get this problem resolved? I am having this issue on my transplanted BJ60 alternator. Any news?

 

[LCDiesel60]

Isaacjohnstar--nothing figured out yet, tried everything everyone mentioned; changed charge lamp relay, check connections, wires, 3 electrical shops tested the unit--all said great, one shop worked on it 3 times and said all was good....only difference now is that when first started during the day, it takes up to 2,500 to 'kick it on' and lamps go out but then throughout the same day--it only takes up to 1,900/2,000 on successive start-ups to get it to 'kick on'--Freewheel was just asking as well--wish I had an answer--should be 'working at idle'--so 'living with it' for now and working on other mods/upgrades since I need a sense of 'accomplishment' and don't have any new direction on the alt--

Sorry to hear about your problem--bit annoying, especially if you realize you've been running on battery for awhile, shifting at lower RPM's and not getting over 2,500 to activate it...

Appreciate if you hear of anything or find the 'cure'! Was up in MT with my daughter to look at a school in Helena last month--first road trip with the diesel LC--got 'pulled over' by another LC owner--hadn't seen any diesels around Helena--nice area and like the less civilized nature of MT compared to OR.

Take care,
LCDiesel60

 

[Isaacjohnstar]

I ordered some new brushes to install myself and we'll see how it goes. I went wheeling the other day and turned my rig off and on probably 10 times ( I have no ebrake due to the H55 swap and have not finshed the new setup, thus needing to park it in gear shut off) I completely forgot about it and when I got home the battery was dead. Hopefully the new brushes will solve it but I will let you know.

Were you looking at Carrol College in Helena? I have had a lot of family go to that school. It is a fun smaller school. It is pretty mellow over there still. A lot less civilized than west Oregon for sure.

3_Puppies(Paul) on Mud lives there and has a cruiser emporium.

 

[LCDiesel60]

Isaacjohnstar--will be curious how your maintenance work turns out--my ALT was fully rebuilt by the shop THEN the alt problems began for me...had the amps doubled and FULL rebuild done so I had plenty of power for the 24V Warn 8274 on the rig plus accessories--

E-brake a good idea--hope you enjoy the 5 speed--just in time to save on gas $.

Yes on the college--she got a partial scholarship that will cover about 40% or more of the cost--good grades pay off--

? What is a cruiser emporium? Sorry--don't know any local mudders/LC owners so a bit of a newb on MUD talk..

LCDiesel60

 

[Isaacjohnstar]

Emporium- ya know he has alot of different and rare cruisers at his place. It's fun to look at and talk to him. If your in Helena again you should look him up.

 

[LCDiesel60]

Thanks Isaac--that makes sense--the guy that flagged me down said there was a guy in Helena that had a lot of rigs and was the 'parts source' for the rest of them...

 

[Freewheel]

Anyone have anything new to add to this thread? I've been driving my truck for 10 years since my last post and the problem of having to rev to kick off the alternator warning lights is still with me. I've spent significant time trying to track it down, but nothing seems to help - except ignoring it, because it hasn't gotten worse in 10 years either...

 

[lacalvette]

Assume it is internal voltage regulated?
Did the shop cleaned all the contact on the solid state regulator.
The rotor still the same, not rewounded. The voltage regulator should sense the batteries voltage and then increase voltage at brush so it's create more field at the rotor. Field cross the stator winding and induce current.

To increase current/voltage at stator both increasing speed and voltage at the rotor works.
You said you need to rev 2000 rpm before starting to charge.
Did they Kept the same number of turn in the winding, I guess they increase the size of the wire.
If the number of turn is the same, should create the same voltage, if not maybe the voltage regulator does not match the "new" stator?
It should send more voltage at brush to start charging?
Maybe rotor should have been rewounded according to the stator, so more Field created..
I'm just saying...exploring, I'm curious too about this weird issue.
Thanks