24V accessories (1 Viewer)

[slangdog]

Just went through the process of installing a 24-12V converter to power all my 12v accessories. Everything is working great, apart from the head unit not having a memory because the 12V supply only comes on with ignition.

Anyway, got me thinking about 24V accessories to one day replace the 12V. I found 1 decent looking head unit - http://www.blaupunktsa.co.za/index.php?route=product/product&path=20_97&product_id=79

Do you guys know of any others? And any amplifiers?

 

[canucksafari]

Caterpillar sells 24V CD/radios. Volvo Heavy equipment likely has them too. They are a bit more money but that is what I would go for if I was to pay for 24V.

 

[Lasse]

At Aliexpress you will find 24v head unit as low as 20$, I got one of those myself in my 24v HJ60.
It haven't CD player but do have FM radio, AUX cable, SD-card and USB stick reader.
If I were to buy it again I would have bought a more expensive unit with better build in amplifier and better display.

Haven't found any good 24v amplifier theres yet, but aliexpress has a ton of 24v accessories easily available at a good price, just remember its all china made ....

 

[canucksafari]

At Aliexpress you will find 24v head unit as low as 20$, I got one of those myself in my 24v HJ60.

Great link. Lots of good stuff there. Only problem is now I have another web store to spend hours scanning.

 

[o8ko8k]

I tapped into one battery with a 12ga wire fused it near the battery, then ran it through the bulkhead to a 6 position fuse block from powerworks. It runs my ham, cb, and music player. My ride is in the shop but when I get it back ill post some pics.

There is talk out there of this causing uneven wear on the batteries leading them to an early death. I would tend to find more concern in this with high draw equipment like winch or a aet of high watt strong of hella lights or something, but it should be fine for some tunes. Unless of course u are one of those boom boom boom dudes with 1000w plus thumpers then the only help I could provide would be advice to save your time, money, and your hearing.

 

[canucksafari]

Hope you got lots of money for regularly replacing batteries. Tapping into one 12V battery on a 24V battery does not cause battery wear, it causes the untapped battery to be over charged. It will literally cook your battery. The charging system sees a 24V battery not two 12V batteries hooked up in series. It will keep charging until it sees a full charge.

 

[canucksafari]

You'll find this a cheap solution compared to tapping a 12V battery:

http://www.uxcell.com/car-power-supply-convert-device-24v-12v-p-9392.html

I ordered 3 of them, so each of my rigs has two of them. (One already has a quality converter in it) They are inexpensive, very easy to hook up and work well.

 

[george_tlc]

My old patrol was 24V. Best thing ever was to convert it to 12V. Especially in a warm climate (Australia), there's basically no benefits to 24V. The only thing I gave up 24V on (willingly for the other benefits) was my 8274, which is now running a 12V motor.

Fortunately I had a donor 12V patrol (junk vehicle) that provided the source of all the 12V goodies.

So, my 2 batteries are now a true 12V main and 12V isolated auxiliary. The nightmares of 24V charge balancing gone for ever and the ability to jump start if needed from the aux is just wonderful.

cheers,
george.

 

[canucksafari]

George, I have two 24V Patrols. I would never consider changing them over to 12V. In every aspect (lighting, charging, starting, wiring), 24V is more efficient. I have no issues getting 24V bits here, just I have to go to industrial parts suppliers. I don't seem to change bulbs near as often as I did with 12V vehicles. Perhaps that is because the industrial 24V bulbs are much better built for a rough environments of heavy equipment.

 

[george_tlc]

George, I have two 24V Patrols. I would never consider changing them over to 12V. In every aspect (lighting, charging, starting, wiring), 24V is more efficient. I have no issues getting 24V bits here, just I have to go to industrial parts suppliers. I don't seem to change bulbs near as often as I did with 12V vehicles. Perhaps that is because the industrial 24V bulbs are much better built for a rough environments of heavy equipment.

Glad you like the 24V system. I never found ANY benefits, other than for the winch.

I converted my patrol to 12V from the donor about 8 years ago (my patrol was bought new in 1980). I lived with that horrible/irritating 24V system for years and it had absolutely no redeeming qualities. Plus the 24V was a gift that kept on giving every few years as it requested 2 NEW batteries each time of equal size/type/capacity/COST.

I've had absolutely NO problems with the 12V setup. Starter motor spins the diesel motor and starts it just as easily as the 24V did. 12V glow plugs work just fine at 12V. Two nice big 12V batteries, one as a starting battery for the vehicle and one as a starting/deep-cycle hybrid for fridge/camp duties and a backup to self jump start in case the main fails.

Yes, the current flow is double on the wiring/bulbs etc, big deal. Other than the starter they're all relatively low current paths. The 24V stuff does cost MORE - obviously it is not as available as the 12V stuff. It's no better in quality if you buy quality 12V versus quality 24V. I've had 24V stuff fail on the patrol (washer motor, bulbs etc). Nissan switched from 24V on the MQ series in 1983 (in oz) and have never gone back to 24V (in oz).

Anyhow, the killer with the 24V is the dual series batteries and having to keep them balanced. Now, if you run flat, how do you jump start? Another 24V (2 batteries) as aux batteries? Running a fridge - you run down both your main batteries unless you have 4 batteries? Or a 3rd 12V battery charged from the 24V system via a 24V->12V charger? Nuts!

With a 4wd that I use in the oz bush for extended 2+ week trips, the 12V system with the 2nd battery as an aux to run the fridge and other camp stuff and charged from a 12V solar panel setup is the way to go.

Maybe for some folk the 24V is good - likely in the frozen wastelands some folk call home But in warm climates (where we call H2O a liquid all year round versus ice) you'd never convince me to run 24V again.

I speak from my own personal experience of having owned a 24V Patrol since 1980 and then running it as 12V since 2006. That vehicle has spent a long time on camping trips, mostly solo, miles from any help. I've had my 12V (with aux battery) 80 series since '97. So, comments are based on real usage of 24V and 12V electrics and in my environments 24V is just a huge pain in the posterior. Oh, I'm an EE, so do understand the 'theoretical' benefits of 24V versus 12V for current flow, wiring, lights, electric motors etc etc.

cheers,
george.

 

[canucksafari]

George, I have the 3rd battery, a 110 amp hr deep cell. The wife,s has smaller deep cell "third" batteries. Only dead battery problems that I have had with mine were my own fault. My 91 ran for 6 years with old JDM batteries that everyone told me were likely finished. I have never heard of battery problems from people who either use a voltage reducer or a DC/DC charger. There are lots of 24V owners on this section of MUD who for years have had no problems. I beg to differ on the bulbs. Yes, they are more money, but they are built to last longer. Even the 24V auto grade bulbs I get last way longer than the ones on my 12V vehicles. Both Nissan and Toyota use the same gauge wire in 12V and 24V applications. As an electrical wiz, you know which one is going to perform better. You look around at all the equipment (boats, planes, heavy equipment) that is 24V, you know that they are 24V for a good reason.

 

[george_tlc]

Well, if you have long life with your bulbs, that's great. I haven't had 12V bulbs burning out any faster than 24V, so seems like a moot point.

24V is fine - IF you have the room for it (all the batteries) and have a way to jump start when it fails. I've had batteries fail in the wild for no reason other than they felt like it. 24V on heavy equipment that has 10L + engines, fine, justifiable for turning over big compression and big moving mass, for a dinky 4wd diesel motor - no need for it. Our 4wd's are not "heavy equipment".

Wiring is the same gauge, yes, so it's not a big deal. Other than the Starter motor and glow plugs it's all low current. 5A, 10A etc, the wiring is sized just fine.

Anyhow, more power to the 24V folk. You may believe it's all no problems keeping the batteries balanced long term - but if that was the case there seems a lot of questions on balancing, inverters, chargers, replacing batteries as matched pairs etc etc... Then the fun of finding 24V radios, or 24V this or 24V that or another inverter... Inverters lose you 5 - 10% efficiency, so that's efficient use of power?

So, you run 3 batteries and an inverter to charge the 3rd battery. I'm happy with just having 12V and two batteries, so now you have to carry the weight of a 3rd battery and the room for it and the inverter and the wiring junk to deal with in. More cost for 3 batteries when 2 would provide the same functionality.

Anyhow, like I wrote, I ran 24V for many years (2006 - 1980 = 26 years), so I know and lived with all the issues that 24V system have and I'm so glad to be rid of it. Going 12V was the BEST upgrade ever to my Patrol afaik.

On camping trips where I'm stopped for a bunch of days, I can charge/top up both 12V batteries (rotate my isolator to the 'both' position) from my solar panel. It's all too easy in a vehicle world that is predominately 12V based.

In Oz I drive a 30+ year old Patrol 4wd diesel, gutless wonder versus modern vehicles, but I love its simplicity and rugged performance in the bush. If 24V made ANY sense at all, I would still be running it. I basically spent approx 3 weeks of one of my Oz trips converting the vehicle versus out camping - I LOVE camping and to give up one trip just to convert to 12V is an indicator of my commitment to ditch the 24V system once and for all.

Glad you like your 24V system.

cheers,
george.

 

[canucksafari]

George for an electrical wiz, I am somewhat surprised at your responses.

Batteries don't fail just because they feel like it. But I now buy industrial grade batteries that have thicker plates rather than your Wally Energizer cheapos. Believe it or not, my IDI engine is industrial and shakes like it is industrial. Things tend to shake a bit too off road. Jump starting is a breeze. I can jump start off of any 12V vehicle and had to do it once. An electrical engineer should know that. My third batter is about 12"x6"x8". No shortage of room for that or weight. Most people carry more crap that just sits in the back of their rig 24/7. Charging the 3rd battery or all three off of solar is as easy as charging your 12V batteries. After all they are all 12V.

Wiring gauge is all good? Come on man. Have you never heard of voltage drop. One of the most popular lighting upgrades is to redo the wiring harness for the lights.

I really have not noticed people posting problems about keeping their batteries balanced unless they had issues. Hell the way you talk all of NATO would be stuck on the side of the road somewhere looking for new batteries. Guess they don't know any better too.

My guess is that if you were having such a hard time keeping batteries balanced, then you had a paracitic draw coming off of one or a bad ground on one. But then, I am no engineer.

 

[Freewheel]

To sort of come back to only semi off-topic...

Jensen has some heads that run on 12 volts that use flash memory to remember memory settings for up to a month. Kind of gets around the need for a 24 volt head if you have the converter already.

I think they are also built to a pretty industrial spec.

 

[canucksafari]

Or just get the reducer I posted up. I've only been using it for about 3 weeks. My friend back east has them on his 4 Patrols and has not had an issue with it draining down the starting batteries. It has a dedicated memory wire on the reducer which connects to the memory wire on the deck harness.

 

[george_tlc]

George for an electrical wiz, I am somewhat surprised at your responses.

Batteries don't fail just because they feel like it. But I now buy industrial grade batteries that have thicker plates rather than your Wally Energizer cheapos. Believe it or not, my IDI engine is industrial and shakes like it is industrial. Things tend to shake a bit too off road. Jump starting is a breeze. I can jump start off of any 12V vehicle and had to do it once. An electrical engineer should know that. My third batter is about 12"x6"x8". No shortage of room for that or weight. Most people carry more crap that just sits in the back of their rig 24/7. Charging the 3rd battery or all three off of solar is as easy as charging your 12V batteries. After all they are all 12V.

Wiring gauge is all good? Come on man. Have you never heard of voltage drop. One of the most popular lighting upgrades is to redo the wiring harness for the lights.

I really have not noticed people posting problems about keeping their batteries balanced unless they had issues. Hell the way you talk all of NATO would be stuck on the side of the road somewhere looking for new batteries. Guess they don't know any better too.

My guess is that if you were having such a hard time keeping batteries balanced, then you had a paracitic draw coming off of one or a bad ground on one. But then, I am no engineer.

No worries, believe what you want. Batteries do just fail - they work till they fail. Most often they fail with no warning. Fact of life and happen often enough. I run quality batteries, they still fail after a bunch of years and a bunch of corrugated roads.

I know about voltage drop - it follows V = I x R. If I is not high (which it isn't for everything other than the start motor and the glow plugs) then voltage drop is not an issue. If it was then then the 12V 4wds would be having all sorts of problems - they don't. The wiring is sized appropriately. I've yet to notice anything on my 12V converted patrol that doesn't perform as well as when it was 24V. The lights work, gauges work, headlights work, turn/brake/interior lights etc etc. Even the glow plugs work and starter starts. We aren't talking about long wiring with 100's of amps here...

I'm just recounting my own experiences, 24V sucks in a 4wd and just adds more complexity for all the accessories or inverter requirements. Need to borrow a trailer that is 12V, more fun, or more inverters needed. It's just a pain and serves no useful purpose.

All newer (<20 yr old) 4wds's, patrols, cruisers etc are 12V in oz. The 24V madness was a temporary phase. At most some have 24V start and then revert to 12V for running and all accessories. The 1Hz, the and even the newer V8 TDI diesels in the troopies and 200 series are 12V only (single battery). If 24V was so great, why have the major 4wd manufacturers moved to 12V?

Jump starting a 24V means you NEED another battery - so you have to have a minimum of 3 in your vehicle. I'm not talking a jump start from another vehicle - obviously if that's the case you really aren't in the s*** anyway since there's a vehicle to help you. If you are on your own - yes, it happens, then you need at least 3 batteries and all the stuff needed to keep that 3rd battery charged, inverter/charger etc.

Seems obvious if you run a 12V vehicle, your 2nd aux battery that you have for fridge/camp duties also offers you the jump start ability if/when the main fails. Yes, batteries do 'just fail'.

Anyhow, feel free to continue using your 24V system. I just provided you MY experience that 24V is a pain and adds another level of complexity and expense that provides no benefits and that's from decades of using a 24V vehicle. If that bothers you, well, sorry, I'm not forcing you to change.

And finally, charging your 24V batteries is NOT as simple as you say . You have 2 series 12V batteries, if you charge one and the other is not charged to the same level then you are back to the balancing issue that is the biggest problem of the 24V scheme. Again, you have to be aware of the issues of charging that 24V combo - unless you have a 24V charging solar system that charges the pair in series as does the 24V alternator in the vehicle.

I've had the situation where one of the batteries in a 24V combo has become 'weak' - yes, even matched batteries bought at the same time can discharge/age differently - they aren't perfect twins... With one 'weak' battery it won't charge properly and the 'good' battery will overcharge (>14.4V). The only solution is to use an external 12V charger to bring the 'weak' battery back up. This kind of madness doesn't occur with a 12V only system (other than cell failures within the battery).

Just sharing my experience of having owned and used a 24V patrol for many years in the oz bush. If I had the option when buying another 4wd that was available in 12V or 24V there is absolutely no way I would even consider the 24V version.

Oh, and if had Nato's budget I wouldn't care if the vehicle ran 36V...

cheers,
george.

 

[cicak]

I tapped into one battery with a 12ga wire fused it near the battery, then ran it through the bulkhead to a 6 position fuse block from powerworks. It runs my ham, cb, and music player. My ride is in the shop but when I get it back ill post some pics.

There is talk out there of this causing uneven wear on the batteries leading them to an early death. I would tend to find more concern in this with high draw equipment like winch or a aet of high watt strong of hella lights or something, but it should be fine for some tunes. Unless of course u are one of those boom boom boom dudes with 1000w plus thumpers then the only help I could provide would be advice to save your time, money, and your hearing.

Having been through this for about 4 years it does not work one battery always dies due to undercharging and I ran only a stereo on the 12volts. Then it suddenly will not start. Ended up converting whole truck to 12volts.

 

[cicak]

No worries, believe what you want. Batteries do just fail - they work till they fail. Most often they fail with no warning. Fact of life and happen often enough. I run quality batteries, they still fail after a bunch of years and a bunch of corrugated roads.

I know about voltage drop - it follows V = I x R. If I is not high (which it isn't for everything other than the start motor and the glow plugs) then voltage drop is not an issue. If it was then then the 12V 4wds would be having all sorts of problems - they don't. The wiring is sized appropriately. I've yet to notice anything on my 12V converted patrol that doesn't perform as well as when it was 24V. The lights work, gauges work, headlights work, turn/brake/interior lights etc etc. Even the glow plugs work and starter starts. We aren't talking about long wiring with 100's of amps here...

I'm just recounting my own experiences, 24V sucks in a 4wd and just adds more complexity for all the accessories or inverter requirements. Need to borrow a trailer that is 12V, more fun, or more inverters needed. It's just a pain and serves no useful purpose.

All newer (<20 yr old) 4wds's, patrols, cruisers etc are 12V in oz. The 24V madness was a temporary phase. At most some have 24V start and then revert to 12V for running and all accessories. The 1Hz, the and even the newer V8 TDI diesels in the troopies and 200 series are 12V only (single battery). If 24V was so great, why have the major 4wd manufacturers moved to 12V?

Jump starting a 24V means you NEED another battery - so you have to have a minimum of 3 in your vehicle. I'm not talking a jump start from another vehicle - obviously if that's the case you really aren't in the s*** anyway since there's a vehicle to help you. If you are on your own - yes, it happens, then you need at least 3 batteries and all the stuff needed to keep that 3rd battery charged, inverter/charger etc.

Seems obvious if you run a 12V vehicle, your 2nd aux battery that you have for fridge/camp duties also offers you the jump start ability if/when the main fails. Yes, batteries do 'just fail'.

Anyhow, feel free to continue using your 24V system. I just provided you MY experience that 24V is a pain and adds another level of complexity and expense that provides no benefits and that's from decades of using a 24V vehicle. If that bothers you, well, sorry, I'm not forcing you to change.

And finally, charging your 24V batteries is NOT as simple as you say . You have 2 series 12V batteries, if you charge one and the other is not charged to the same level then you are back to the balancing issue that is the biggest problem of the 24V scheme. Again, you have to be aware of the issues of charging that 24V combo - unless you have a 24V charging solar system that charges the pair in series as does the 24V alternator in the vehicle.

I've had the situation where one of the batteries in a 24V combo has become 'weak' - yes, even matched batteries bought at the same time can discharge/age differently - they aren't perfect twins... With one 'weak' battery it won't charge properly and the 'good' battery will overcharge (>14.4V). The only solution is to use an external 12V charger to bring the 'weak' battery back up. This kind of madness doesn't occur with a 12V only system (other than cell failures within the battery).

Just sharing my experience of having owned and used a 24V patrol for many years in the oz bush. If I had the option when buying another 4wd that was available in 12V or 24V there is absolutely no way I would even consider the 24V version.

Oh, and if had Nato's budget I wouldn't care if the vehicle ran 36V...

cheers,
george.

Been through all these 24v issues except the trailer hookup. I agree.

 

[Lasse]

Having been through this for about 4 years it does not work one battery always dies due to undercharging and I ran only a stereo on the 12volts. Then it suddenly will not start. Ended up converting whole truck to 12volts.

Your own fault, you cannot blame this on the 24v system only on your own ignorance.

Any load on just one battery, even just stereo memory or a tiny little led bulb are enough to destroy the batteries in under a year ....

Had the same problem myself when I bought the truck as the previous owner did what you did, connected the stereo directly to the 12v battery ...
Have since bought 2 new batteries of the same type at the same time and fully charged them before plugging them up. Haven't had any problems what so ever since ....

 

[o8ko8k]

Hope you got lots of money for regularly replacing batteries. Tapping into one 12V battery on a 24V battery does not cause battery wear, it causes the untapped battery to be over charged. It will literally cook your battery. The charging system sees a 24V battery not two 12V batteries hooked up in series. It will keep charging until it sees a full charge.

Wow looks like this sparked quite a debate. Ill read this b4 i post anything... Stay tuned...

tick tock....

Well that was an exciting read! Looks like there is quite a debate about the simple concept of cell balancing while charging series lead acid batteries. Remember a 12v battery IS JUST a stack of 6 2.2v cells. Two 12v batteries in series only increases that from a stack of 6 2.2v cells to a stack of 12 which makes up a 24v cell pack.

Each cell is a little different and the total charge voltage across all stacks is always the same. Thus charge variation occurs, cell balance is never achieved. Let me recap. This is ALSO true in a 12v battery. But... Double the number of cells, double the problem. Double the number of cells AND drain 1/2 of them intentionally... More than double the problem.

What appears to be in hot debate here is how much of a problem and across different use cases. Here are some great articles about charging and balancing. I hope this helps all of you "not go broke" as canucksafari put it...

http://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/charging_the_lead_acid_battery
http://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/equalizing_charge

Yall definitly pointed me in the right direction to avoid problems so thankyou.