The platform sharing is awesome. And thank you for these killer pics.
2024+ GX vs 2022+ LX -- Frame + suspension (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter Brown98LC
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The LX/LC, GX/Prado and Tundra/Sequoia/Taco all use the same basic TNGA-F platform however this does not mean that the chassis is identical across the board.
For example in the new Tacoma the TNGA-F's chassis is gauged down according to the Tacoma's chief engineer because the frame on the new Tacoma does not need to be as strong as on say the Tundra.
Savagegeese did a great interview with the chief engineer of the new Tacoma where the chief engineer explains why the chassis was gauged down and what other changes it has compared to the full size Tundra.
So knowing this information if I had to guess, the TNGA-F on the 300-series is stronger and more robust than TNGA-F for the next GX/Prado.
Question about chassis difference starts @ 0:18
For example in the new Tacoma the TNGA-F's chassis is gauged down according to the Tacoma's chief engineer because the frame on the new Tacoma does not need to be as strong as on say the Tundra.
Savagegeese did a great interview with the chief engineer of the new Tacoma where the chief engineer explains why the chassis was gauged down and what other changes it has compared to the full size Tundra.
So knowing this information if I had to guess, the TNGA-F on the 300-series is stronger and more robust than TNGA-F for the next GX/Prado.
Question about chassis difference starts @ 0:18
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Awesome. Those sneaky engineers. Very smart and makes sense.
Agreed.
I notice a few changes in the front suspension. The upper control arms are different stamping for the main arm body. The lower control arms have some variation as well. Different sway bar shapes. Rear suspension looks identical other than the GX having the locking diff hardware on the left side of the housing.
The frames to me are visually identical with the exception of the rear most cross member being higher clearance on the GX. I doubt they are different strength. There's no reason in this case to have them different. The vehicles are the same size, use the same engines, and weight the same. They're the same vehicle with different bodies.
The bodies are interesting. To me it looks like the GX body has a number of changes to increase the overall rigidity over the LX body. My guess is that it was due to the panoramic roof and I think we'll see a removeable panel in the Land Cruiser version that will require that extra structure.
The frames to me are visually identical with the exception of the rear most cross member being higher clearance on the GX. I doubt they are different strength. There's no reason in this case to have them different. The vehicles are the same size, use the same engines, and weight the same. They're the same vehicle with different bodies.
The bodies are interesting. To me it looks like the GX body has a number of changes to increase the overall rigidity over the LX body. My guess is that it was due to the panoramic roof and I think we'll see a removeable panel in the Land Cruiser version that will require that extra structure.
TexasFunRunner
SILVER Star
Great observation, a removable roof panel, now that would be interesting.
So something like a T-Top, with or without the T.
Not going to happen.
Sorry for being a dumb--, but what is a 7x vehicle?
Land Cruiser 70 series. There's a few different models from 76,79, etc. So they're called 7X sometimes.
Thanks for sharing these images @Brown98LC
Interesting to see the differences between the LX600 (LC300) and the GX550 (LC250). I’m surprised by a few things:
1) greater use of steel (and high strength steel) in the GX. Aluminum is lighter and doesn’t rust, but steel is stronger, assuming similar thicknesses. Steel is also easier to repair as it retains memory better
2) the rear suspension looks pretty much the same, but the rear axle housings look slightly different, with the GX axle housing looking slightly bigger?
3) I had assumed the TNGA-F platform meant they basically all shared the same chassis (different wb versions, and minor differences for different mounting, but otherwise identical). Interesting to hear and see that they are actually quite different from vehicle to vehicle. Even the suspension is quite different. Someone noted in another thread how the new Tacoma suspension is different with the swaybar behind the axle. I had very much assumed that the TNGA-F vehicles would all have essentially identical suspension geometry with just spring rates being varied.
Interesting to see the differences between the LX600 (LC300) and the GX550 (LC250). I’m surprised by a few things:
1) greater use of steel (and high strength steel) in the GX. Aluminum is lighter and doesn’t rust, but steel is stronger, assuming similar thicknesses. Steel is also easier to repair as it retains memory better
2) the rear suspension looks pretty much the same, but the rear axle housings look slightly different, with the GX axle housing looking slightly bigger?
3) I had assumed the TNGA-F platform meant they basically all shared the same chassis (different wb versions, and minor differences for different mounting, but otherwise identical). Interesting to hear and see that they are actually quite different from vehicle to vehicle. Even the suspension is quite different. Someone noted in another thread how the new Tacoma suspension is different with the swaybar behind the axle. I had very much assumed that the TNGA-F vehicles would all have essentially identical suspension geometry with just spring rates being varied.
As I understand it, the TNGA-F platform is more adaptable than past platforms. Not only can the wheelbase be changed but also the track width and the strength (by changing the thickness of the steel in different locations of the frame).
Also to be noted is that the rear suspension design can be significantly different. Most of the TNGA-F vehicles use coil springs in the rear but the lower trims of the Tacoma use leaf springs instead.
Something interesting is that the GX has the front sway bar like the LC300. The LC250 has the sway bar behind the front suspension like the Tacoma. Even on the same vehicle they're moving those parts around depending on the different trims/configurations.
The Tacoma engineers discussed how the 8AT offered better ground clearance so they used it for the Tacoma instead of the 10 speed. I'm not sure how that is or why. TBH I'm not entirely sure I even believe it. But it may have something to do with the clearance to fit the sway bar behind the front suspension. I'm not sure if that's related or not. But it seems like the 10AT models have the sway bar in front and the 8AT models move it to the rear, so it could be the case. I'm not sure how the LC300 with the 1GR and 6 speed transmission is setup.
Interesting…I thought I saw a picture with the sway bar on the front of the front axle of the LC250, but maybe that was a GX.
Makes sense that the 8 speed is a bit more compact than the 10 speed…2 less gears!
(Unrelated, but I hope the transmission is good. The ZF 8HP 8speed in my truck is incredibly smooth, I’ll be disappointed if the LC 8speed is clunky)
Also unrelated, but it looked like a skid plate will be needed to protect the transmission pan and electric motor in the 250)
It's probably not impossible that we could see future editions of the LC250 that use a front mounted sway bar and eKDSS. I doubt it. Toyota almost never provides that level of updates to its vehicles during the series. But it's the same chassis, so it would be a pretty easy parts bin option to offer in the future.
The reason the 8AT vs 10AT giving more ground clearance sounds kinda like BS to me is this comparison from Toyota. Frankly - it sounds a lot like the bull s*** they did with the A750 and A760 where they were the same transmission but one shifts into all 6 gears. It feels a lot like that here where we have two transmissions that appear to have nearly identical lengths and the same number of elements, but on is a 10 speed and the other an 8 speed. Now - this is a 2016 press release IIRC. So, maybe the new 8 speed and 10 speed are both completely different. Or maybe one of them is different. No idea. Just seems unusual that the 8 speed would result in any difference in ground clearance.
The reason the 8AT vs 10AT giving more ground clearance sounds kinda like BS to me is this comparison from Toyota. Frankly - it sounds a lot like the bull s*** they did with the A750 and A760 where they were the same transmission but one shifts into all 6 gears. It feels a lot like that here where we have two transmissions that appear to have nearly identical lengths and the same number of elements, but on is a 10 speed and the other an 8 speed. Now - this is a 2016 press release IIRC. So, maybe the new 8 speed and 10 speed are both completely different. Or maybe one of them is different. No idea. Just seems unusual that the 8 speed would result in any difference in ground clearance.
Is the new “direct shift” 8AT used in anything else other than the new Tacoma and LC? Was the old 8AT used in anything other than the 200 series LC? Who makes the “direct shift” 10AT? Aisin? Toyota in-house? Any reason to assume the 10AT and 8AT have the same architecture or just the same name? I would be so pleasantly surprised if it was just a marketing name for a ZF 8HP (I mean it is used in the “Toyota” Supra).
Is the GX listed with less ground clearance than the LC at the transmission specifically? Or could it be the bumper valences?
Is the GX listed with less ground clearance than the LC at the transmission specifically? Or could it be the bumper valences?
I think the removable panel will be seen on the next gen 4runner for sure. Won't see it on the LC. It will take it back to its rootsand will compete with the wrangler and bronco better.
Toyota has had versions of an 8AT since 2007ish. LS, IS, and GS(?) and probably the same gear train in some traverse models. But I don't know which ones are the same and whether or how much they differ from the current one.
My guess is the 8 and 10 speeds are both Aisin. I'm fine with that. I think Aisin quality is better than ZF in general. In the case of the 8ATs the Toyota's older one was very different in design. The ZF uses 4 planetary gear sets to get to 8 speeds. Toyota's first 8AT only had 2 planetary sets and is significantly more complex engineering, but also uses fewer gears and parts to get to 8 speeds. Which is better? I'm not sure. In the end they weigh about the same and shifts are about the same now. I think the ZF may have a slight advantage in efficiency. I'd guess the Aisin is more compact.
My guess on same internals is just a guess - although after reading more I'm less sure. I really have no idea other than guessing based on what Toyota's done in the past. They have the same number of elements internally. I'm not an expert by any means. What points me that way is that I think Toyota's newer 8AT has 4 planetary sets like the ZF and the cutaway of the 10AT also has 4. And they'll have 6 clutches and ??? valves to operate the combination of clutches. Having 6 clutches and 4 planetary sets = 10 elements. And that should allow 10 gear ratios. Not sure if the 8AT can't operate some of the ratios or doesn't or what. Ford's old 5AT had 6 ratios but skipped 4th gear because it was nearly identical to 3rd gear in ratio - because their engineers aren't very good at math. Toyota doesn't do that. They just choose not to let it shift to all the gears to artificially make the transmission less functional. I'm not sure which one is better.
If there's actually a difference internally and a reason for it - I'd love to learn more about Toyota's reasoning.
Edit: after reading more - I'm not sure the 8AT gives up a lot vs the 10. The highway mpg is likely unchanged between them due to the relatively small difference in rpms and the fact that Toyota gears them so tall that the 4cyl would lack the power to operate in triple overdrive and not be able to use the tallest gear in most cases. And on the bottom end - the hybrid torque probably makes up for the taller 1st gear ratio. The biggest advantage I see of the 10AT is the closer ratios between gears 1-3 where the 10at will have closer shifts and be able to accelerate quicker. I think the hybrid probably offsets the need for that extra quick shift. But we'll have to wait and see how they feel in the real world.
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I'd love to see it happen. But my money is on the 4Runner retaining the 3rd row since the LC250 doesn't have one. Could there be a 3 row 4R with a hard top? Sure. It would be really fawkin cool for tour companies! But I can't see it happening in real life.
I would think it would just be the front panels…T-top style, rather than fully removable . They make too much money selling 4Runners as a family car/quieter alternative to a Jeep to sacrifice comfort/noise/internal volume by making it a fully removable top.
The Tundra Panoramic roof gets pretty damn close to a convertible.
If Toyota just made the same roof in the LC250 panoramic roof with that glass panel removeable as a composite part - That's really all most people would want. I don't like the Jeep Recon solution of the pleated fabric. But I do like the general idea of getting close to a full open top without the weight and hassle of removing and storing the full top. It's a big opening. Imagine that glass removed and you'd have a really big open top feel. Could even use a panel with a zipper rim and soft top for folks who want easy in/out option for rain. Or a multi-fold type panel like the truck bed covers. There's a lot of options that could be done. None of them would give the real top off experience of a Wrangler or Bronco. But they could get close.
like this:
If Toyota just made the same roof in the LC250 panoramic roof with that glass panel removeable as a composite part - That's really all most people would want. I don't like the Jeep Recon solution of the pleated fabric. But I do like the general idea of getting close to a full open top without the weight and hassle of removing and storing the full top. It's a big opening. Imagine that glass removed and you'd have a really big open top feel. Could even use a panel with a zipper rim and soft top for folks who want easy in/out option for rain. Or a multi-fold type panel like the truck bed covers. There's a lot of options that could be done. None of them would give the real top off experience of a Wrangler or Bronco. But they could get close.
like this:
