2002 LX470 pre-purchase - Deleted AHC for StrutMaster Suspension

[jLB]

This is a good data point. It's important to know that just because a torsion spring is only 14% larger diameter doesn't mean that it's 14% stiffer, it goes up exponentially.

Some quick maths (28.87^4/25.5^4) tells us that the non AHC bars are 64.3% stiffer.

Except I had a typo in my spreadsheet…

I had the AHC bar entered as 25.2, when it is really 25.5, so the corrected numbers would be +3.37mm or +13.2%

 

[97 AZ LC]

Compared to some of the other options that are out there for these vehicles, or (dealer quotes for) repairing AHC, the Strutmasters kit is cheap or inexpensive, otherwise why would they exist. In my opinion, the reason that they do not include the torsion bars, is to keep costs down and profits up.


I think this forum generally gives torsion bars a "bad rap", but yes, the preload on the torsion bars can be changed, by re-indexing, or turning a bolt, which does adjust resting height of the suspension, but it is my understanding that does nothing to change the actual spring rate of the torsion bar. It is my understanding that a torsion bar's effective spring rate is a function of its diameter, length (fixed in this instance), and lever/LCA length (also fixed).

It appears that you and I differ on our definition of "slightly".

100 series torsion bars:

AHC ~25.5mm​

Non-AHC ~28.87mm (+3.67mm or +14%)​

OME ~30.5 (+1.63mm or +5.6%)​

TD/IM/SAW/etc ~32mm (+1.5mm or +4.9%)​

I do wish I was getting "slightly" better interest on my CDs



Incorrect installation may well be a problem with their kit. I understand that it is not intended for hard core off roaders, or anyone adding a lot of weight. In my opinion, Strutmasters niche, is making vehicles with broken pneumatic or hydro-pneumatic suspensions drivable again, for less than the OE repair cost (at the dealer).

I wonder where I may have gotten that impression?

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Technically, I believe "slander" is verbal, since it's been in writing, wouldn't that be "libel"? I don't believe that I have defamed them at all, I've offered fact, and my opinions on one product that they offer, based on my experience with that product, I haven't questioned their integrity, intelligence, said anything about their mother nor tried to present any falsehood as fact. If I wasn't real clear on what was fact vs. what was my opinion, I'm sorry.

I'll assume from your passionate defense of Strutmasters, that you do have one of their kits, installed on a 100 series?

You're entitled to your opinion that the Strutmasters kit is a "quality product", just as I am entitled to my opinion that it is an ill advised band-aid that doesn't fully address the issues when removing AHC from a 100 series.

I think calling 10 percent "slightly" smaller in diameter is fair. My LX bars, which are rustfree, are a solid 26mm measured with an electronic caliper in multiple locations on both sides. That's about 10 percent smaller than the 28.xx for the LCs.

My defense of Strutmasters isn't personal or that passionate. I spoke with them years ago in the context of a Range Rover but have never done business with them, hold no stock in the company, and have no plans to buy their kit. I have purchased OE genuine shocks and OME springs in anticipation of a conversion someday. I have spent less than $300 so far which is why I objected to the suggestion that Strutmasters is "cheap". The price isn't that low and I suspect that shops buy it largely because of the Strutmaster reputation, which I believe is very good (other than here). I'm looking for some used LC torsion bars and plan to try both the original LX and LC bars for a comparison test. But this gets postponed because my AHC won't seem to fail and I'm not going to throw away perfectly good AHC.

But this isn't about me. It's about Strutmasters and this forum. I'd like to see them treated more fairly. The suggestion that it's "crap" and never works - for anyone, anywhere - just isn't true. The kit with the LX torsion bars, properly installed, might actually be the best soft ride for some people. And a forum that acknowledges that people are different and not everyone is a hard core off roader is a better forum.

 

[Argonaut54]

From his comments, I don’t think an immediate heavy build was his intention.

This is true. But good to know the right questions to be asking.

 

[jLB]

I think calling 10 percent "slightly" smaller in diameter is fair. My LX bars, which are rustfree, are a solid 26mm measured with an electronic caliper in multiple locations on both sides. That's about 10 percent smaller than the 28.xx for the LCs.

My defense of Strutmasters isn't personal or that passionate. I spoke with them years ago in the context of a Range Rover but have never done business with them, hold no stock in the company, and have no plans to buy their kit. I have purchased OE genuine shocks and OME springs in anticipation of a conversion someday. I have spent less than $300 so far which is why I objected to the suggestion that Strutmasters is "cheap". The price isn't that low and I suspect that shops buy it largely because of the Strutmaster reputation, which I believe is very good (other than here). I'm looking for some used LC torsion bars and plan to try both the original LX and LC bars for a comparison test. But this gets postponed because my AHC won't seem to fail and I'm not going to throw away perfectly good AHC.

But this isn't about me. It's about Strutmasters and this forum. I'd like to see them treated more fairly. The suggestion that it's "crap" and never works - for anyone, anywhere - just isn't true. The kit with the LX torsion bars, properly installed, might actually be the best soft ride for some people. And a forum that acknowledges that people are different and not everyone is a hard core off roader is a better forum.

I believe that the flaw in your ~10%=“slightly larger” logic, is that it is my understanding that +~10% in diameter does not just cause a linear increase in spring rate (+~10%).

Their Range Rover kit might be the best thing since sliced bread, on that vehicle.

I'm being called out for "unjustly parroting the forum's party line, without any actual experience, and defaming a fine company", from someone that hasn't been in the same room as one of these 100 series kits, thus far hasn't tried running LX470 AHC torsion bars without their associated hydraulics, and is basing their opinion on Strutmaster's reputation?

It is my OPINION that the factory LC (non-AHC) parts, are much better designed, by Toyota, for a non-AHC 100 series conversion, than the Strutmaster kit. This is based on my limited experience/exposure with Strutmasters 100 series kit, on a friends 2000 LX470, and having driven multiple stock LC100s over the years. I suspect that far more engineering was done by Toyota than Strutmasters. I wouldn't put a family member behind the wheel of a 100 series with AHC torsion bars, without the associated AHC hydraulics, because it felt unsafe in ride/handling to me. It would seem that the largest flaw in the Strutmasters kit, is trying to re-use the AHC torsion bars, because if you swap out the torsion bars, the kit suddenly becomes acceptable.

I acknowledge that people are different, and build (or not) their LC/LX many different ways, to suit their needs. Mine are built based on my needs, each of the three current ones in the driveway are a little different, and a little different than most on this forum. Two of the three in my driveway are mainly DD , and have certain compromises because of this. I know it's blasphemy, but most of my off-roading is just to get where I'm going, to do other things. (I believe most hardcore off-roaders would've chosen something other than a 100 series LC/LX.) I don't recall advising the OP to "build it like mine, because it is the only way". I don't even remember mentioning what I've done to my vehicles. I do recall proposing what I would do if I purchased the vehicle that he was considering, which doesn't match any of my current vehicles, but it is a good DD configuration in my experience. Amazingly enough, it sounds like you’re planning on doing something very similar to what I recommended, if your AHC is ever beyond reasonable repair . I wonder why you’re looking for used LC torsion bars? Would it be because the last time that I checked, two new Toyota torsion bars cost more than the entire Strutmasters kit? Why OME springs instead of OE? Because the lighter/softer OE springs seem a little pricey compared to the 50lb/in stiffer OME equivalent?

In my opinion, this forum helps by sharing their experiences with different products, good or bad, so we don't all have to learn every little thing the hard way.

 

[kmad86]

I recently purchased a wrecked LX. I don’t know much about the accident other than they slid into a concrete barrier and the strutmaster suspension is brand new. It had very little dust on it, looks like just a few miles on it. Factory torsion bars.

…..

 

[baltistyle]

I recently purchased a wrecked LX. I don’t know much about the accident other than they slid into a concrete barrier and the strutmaster suspension is brand new. It had very little dust on it, looks like just a few miles on it. Factory torsion bars.


View attachment 3160295


…..

Hopefully it was not from soft front suspension diving during an evasive maneuver…. Does this truck with strut master components also contain upgraded front torsion bars? Inquiring minds will want to know

 

[97 AZ LC]

I'm being called out for "unjustly parroting the forum's party line, without any actual experience, and defaming a fine company", from someone that hasn't been in the same room as one of these 100 series kits, thus far hasn't tried running LX470 AHC torsion bars without their associated hydraulics, and is basing their opinion on Strutmaster's reputation?

You're not being called out at all. Don't take it so personally - it's an automotive forum. Nobody cares who's who. Again, the point is this - the party line here is that Strutmasters is crap and that the nose will always be in the dirt - and that simply isn't true. Properly installed it works fine for some people but it is often not properly installed. Indeed with proper installation it might actually be the perfect setup for some people because bigger torsion bars equals harsher ride. So why not treat Strutmasters more honestly and objectively?

 

[jLB]

You're not being called out at all. Don't take it so personally - it's an automotive forum. Nobody cares who's who. Again, the point is this - the party line here is that Strutmasters is crap and that the nose will always be in the dirt - and that simply isn't true. Properly installed it works fine for some people but it is often not properly installed. Indeed with proper installation it might actually be the perfect setup for some people because bigger torsion bars equals harsher ride. So why not treat Strutmasters more honestly and objectively?

Sorry for harshing your mellow, with my honest and objective observations of the Strutmaster kit on a 100 series.

I guess I should probably also stop saying that I personally dislike OME shocks, on a mostly stock 100 series. OME/ARB has a stellar reputation, and they sell a lot of shocks. My negative experiences were probably just due to my improper installation, or I’m just not man enough to ride in a “real truck”.

I’ll bow out here, as our back and forth really adds nothing more for the OP’s original question.

If/when you give up on AHC, and start your conversion to a conventional suspension, I’d honestly like to hear your observations as you work your way through the process, either in a new thread or DM/PM.

 

[suprarx7nut]

IMO, the Strutmasters kit is outright dangerous and I'm shocked they have not been sued - perhaps they have and we haven't heard about it.

Spring rates matter. Increasing pre-load is not the same thing as changing spring rate. You can take an inadequate spring and stuff it with 4" of spacers to pre-load it to the moon. That doesn't make it a proper solution.

If you remove AHC, you've removed roughly half the vehicle's spring rate. Reindexing the torsion bar two teeth can give it the proper stance, but the spring rate is waaaaaaay off. Once the wheel moves up or down from that static center point its receiving an incorrect force. I'd love to see dynamic road tests of a Strutmasters kit vs a normal LC/LX. I suspect that would be entertaining.

To the OP looking at a car with the Strutmasters kit: plan on complete replacement or at a very minimum swapping torsion bars. A cheap AHC hackjob spells trouble in my eyes.

 

[kmad86]

Hopefully it was not from soft front suspension diving during an evasive maneuver…. Does this truck with strut master components also contain upgraded front torsion bars? Inquiring minds will want to know

No, they’re stock. Once I get it fixed, I will definitely be upgrading the entire suspension. It feels so soft driving.

 

[kmad86]

IMO, the Strutmasters kit is outright dangerous and I'm shocked they have not been sued - perhaps they have and we haven't heard about it.

Spring rates matter. Increasing pre-load is not the same thing as changing spring rate. You can take an inadequate spring and stuff it with 4" of spacers to pre-load it to the moon. That doesn't make it a proper solution.

If you remove AHC, you've removed roughly half the vehicle's spring rate. Reindexing the torsion bar two teeth can give it the proper stance, but the spring rate is waaaaaaay off. Once the wheel moves up or down from that static center point its receiving an incorrect force. I'd love to see dynamic road tests of a Strutmasters kit vs a normal LC/LX. I suspect that would be entertaining.

To the OP looking at a car with the Strutmasters kit: plan on complete replacement or at a very minimum swapping torsion bars. A cheap AHC hackjob spells trouble in my eyes.

What is a good kit you recommend? I don’t care about budget on something like a good suspension, just want to know what some of the best setups are. Also, I originally wasn’t planning on any kind of lift but not opposed to something small. There are a few creeks on my property that a little pickup might benefit.

 

[suprarx7nut]

No, they’re stock. Once I get it fixed, I will definitely be upgrading the entire suspension. It feels so soft driving.

Spring rates half what they should be will feel that way.

What is a good kit you recommend? I don’t care about budget on something like a good suspension, just want to know what some of the best setups are. Also, I originally wasn’t planning on any kind of lift but not opposed to something small. There are a few creeks on my property that a little pickup might benefit.

I've experienced a few in the last 10 years, but I'm by no means an expert on the best system out there right now. The stock Toyota setup for the LC 100 is plenty good for its price tag, but if you have to get all new retainers and hardware it might get a bit pricey. Icon has lots of good options. Slee makes a few. The Ironman Procell Foam get great reviews. The Nitrocharger shocks from ARB are too rough for an un-armored 100, but I've heard good things once you have an extra ~1000lbs on board. Lots of good info out there.

 

[97 AZ LC]

The stock Toyota setup for the LC 100 is plenty good for its price tag, but if you have to get all new retainers and hardware it might get a bit pricey.

Only if you buy them in the U.S. Impex is about 1/5th the price, roughly $40 for 14 of them. 2 can be resused from AHC.

 

[Argonaut54]

All, resurecting an old thread. I ended up pulling the trigger on this great truck a 18 months ago and couldn't be happier. but now i'm getting to the point i'd like to evaluate the suspension. I've tinkered on some other things throughout the truck but all very simple. Getting my hands dirty in the suspension would be next. I would like to replace the torsion bars as recommended above and found a deal for new Iron man bars with springs.
Based on the fact i have the strutmaster suspension, would it be feasible to install the following as is?
REAR COIL SPRINGS (2" LIFT) - HEAVY LOAD (440-880LBS) SUITED FOR TOYOTA 80/100 SERIES LAND CRUISER/LEXUS LX450/LX470
&
FRONT TORSION BARS (PETROL) SUITED FOR TOYOTA 100 SERIES LAND CRUISER/LEXUS LX470