next rig I am going this route.
If I fry solenoids I will go the albright route.
If I fry the motor, well I will go 24v....
If I fry solenoids I will go the albright route.
If I fry the motor, well I will go 24v....
12volt winch on 24 volt truck ??
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They will break, I bought a used 8274 12v, decided to take the chance upon reading Crushers posts and talking with Ishobie, I switched the 12v solenoids to 24v, and hooked it up to my 24v truck.
I played with it about 5 times over two weeks, mostly testing it for short 50' pulls under little load, just the rolling truck.
Then up at the cottage after a few beers I hooked it up to a tree to show my handy work to my wife, and it pulled about 5' and stopped dead, the solenoids were clicking but the motor wouldn't work, and I couldn't place my hand on the motor for about 1/2 hour it was so hot. That Monday I ordered a new 24v motor from Warn, and 6 weeks and $700 poorer it arrived today.
The second picture shows what I found on the 12v motor when I pulled it apart, pieces of the brushes fell out, and on the armature there is a bent copper piece that the brushes ride on, I never inspected the inside the motor when I bought it, just changed the oil and solenoids.
But up until that time it worked great and fast.
I played with it about 5 times over two weeks, mostly testing it for short 50' pulls under little load, just the rolling truck.
Then up at the cottage after a few beers I hooked it up to a tree to show my handy work to my wife, and it pulled about 5' and stopped dead, the solenoids were clicking but the motor wouldn't work, and I couldn't place my hand on the motor for about 1/2 hour it was so hot. That Monday I ordered a new 24v motor from Warn, and 6 weeks and $700 poorer it arrived today.
The second picture shows what I found on the 12v motor when I pulled it apart, pieces of the brushes fell out, and on the armature there is a bent copper piece that the brushes ride on, I never inspected the inside the motor when I bought it, just changed the oil and solenoids.
But up until that time it worked great and fast.
crushers
post ho
"used"
hummm, chances are you would have had the same results with the winch on 12V. if it was cause of the 24V then there would be burning and not just busted brushes, no?
hummm, chances are you would have had the same results with the winch on 12V. if it was cause of the 24V then there would be burning and not just busted brushes, no?
Tapage
Club 4X4 Panamá
700 bucks ! ouch .. !
I don't know enough about electric motors to answer that, but if you give me a few minutes, I'll pull the back off the new 24v motor and take a picture of the two of them side by side and see if there is any difference
crushers
post ho
time is on your side, it will be interesting to see ...
24V motors are not cheap...
24V motors are not cheap...
The bottom didn't want to come off, and I don't want to screw something so new up, so I took a picture of the top and the two most notable differences are that the magnets on the inside housing are bigger and the armature is wound differently and looks slightly bigger on the 24v than on the 12v
I still can't get to the bottom brushes on the new motor so i'm not going to push it, but I also noticed that the 24v housing is about a 1/4" longer that the 12v, and the bolts that secure the motor to the winch are insulated almost to the threaded portion on the 24v, whereas on the 12v they are only insulated to the pen tip.
yes $600 +/- add HST = almost $700 not cheap
yes $600 +/- add HST = almost $700 not cheap
Did you look at other avenues for a motor rather than a new one from Warn? I would of had a hard time justifying $700 for the motor myself. But everyone has their preferences. I know you can get a 12V redone to 24V here on the wet Coast for around $300.
I asked a guy we deal with who rebuilds alternators and starters, and he told me that there is nobody left in Ottawa who did that particular work anymore, no demand. I'm sure there would be someone in Montreal or Toronto if I checked.
If this 24v motor lasts as long as some of the original 8274 motors I hear about on mud , over the long term I don't mind paying the money. But it's good to know that somebody still does it, even if it's on the other side of the country.
Thinking about this, the used winch did work when I received it, both ways on 12v, I hooked up booster cables to remove the steel rope, and the few times after when I mounted it to my truck
If that piece was seperated from the shaft when I received it, damage would have been immediate.
But I did use it prior to the "incident", without any problem.
IMHO the brushes broke, because the copper piece seperated from the shaft and caught the brushes, was it because the bonding agent that holds the copper to the shaft failed? Or did the 24 volts have something to do with that piece seperating?
Anyhow I knew i was taking a chance when I originally installed it.
Here is an attempt to explain the physics behind the 12V winch working on a 24 V truck. The solenoids are just magnets to close the circuit power on and off so the wires to the controler switch don't have to be 0 gauge. If you feed electricity with the minimum voltage to the magnet it pulls the switch closed. If you feed higher voltage then what is required then the switch closes faster. 24v volts to a 12 volt solenoid will close it. 12 v to a 24 volt solenoid will not create a magnetic field strong enough to close circuit (and that depends on the manufacturer of the switch). The same principle applies to the motor. For a DC motor to turn, magnets are energized and the copper wire inside rotates around the axle shaft in the middle. To make a motor stronger you can one of three things. Add more wire, use a bigger magnet or make the magnetic field stronger by making more current flow through the coil.
A picture of it simplified.
Higher voltage to the same motor and you get a stronger winch, or drill or what ever you want. Where you can have problems will depend what's holding the magnets and wires togeter, how robust is the motor. Will it's mechanical components hold up to the extra speed or torque.
What I think happened to your motor Capitalguy is mechanical failure due to torque and speed. I won't send you a check for 700 $ if it fails but I bet if you hooked up you new motor it would last much longer. That being said it was designed to spin at a max speed and you will be turning faster than max. Changes are it will let go quicker then if you only ran it on 12 volts.
A picture of it simplified.
Higher voltage to the same motor and you get a stronger winch, or drill or what ever you want. Where you can have problems will depend what's holding the magnets and wires togeter, how robust is the motor. Will it's mechanical components hold up to the extra speed or torque.
What I think happened to your motor Capitalguy is mechanical failure due to torque and speed. I won't send you a check for 700 $ if it fails but I bet if you hooked up you new motor it would last much longer. That being said it was designed to spin at a max speed and you will be turning faster than max. Changes are it will let go quicker then if you only ran it on 12 volts.
That's why I purchased the 24v motor to be compatible with the 24v system. Didn't want to chance it twice. Although there are guys who have'nt had problems using a 12v motor on a 24v system, Luck of the draw I guess.
crushers
post ho
personally, i think that a brand new 24V motor is a good way to go. you know it is the proper one to do the job (made in china?) and that it should last.
rewound motors work fine too.
12V on 24V is a hoot to play with but keep your fingers free of the cable since you shut off the switch and another 3 ft of cable keeps rolling in as the motor winds down. unlike 12V on 12V or 24V on 24V where you let go of the switch and it stops immediately.
i have done them all, and to me the important thing is that the winch gets you out of the s*** you just got yourself into.
rewound motors work fine too.
12V on 24V is a hoot to play with but keep your fingers free of the cable since you shut off the switch and another 3 ft of cable keeps rolling in as the motor winds down. unlike 12V on 12V or 24V on 24V where you let go of the switch and it stops immediately.
i have done them all, and to me the important thing is that the winch gets you out of the s*** you just got yourself into.
Agreed, unfortunately the sticker on the box does say "Country of Origin: China"
the new warn 6hp 12v motors keep spooling after you stop like crushers said as well. it is a bit of a pain.
crushers
post ho
just because it says "china" doesn't make it a bad motor.
i bought one of those little quad winches for $75, remote, snatch block, clevis, slide in mount and cable ... hell of a deal.
i put it on my float to load dead cruisers, first time i ran it i was winching a dead 60 onto the trailer. while i was doing this i had my hand on the motor to see if it got hot. not even warm. i have used it at least ten times now and some of the cruisers have pushed 6000 lbs, single line and up it comes.
so SOME stuff from China is crap and some is wickedly good.
best of luck.
i bought one of those little quad winches for $75, remote, snatch block, clevis, slide in mount and cable ... hell of a deal.
i put it on my float to load dead cruisers, first time i ran it i was winching a dead 60 onto the trailer. while i was doing this i had my hand on the motor to see if it got hot. not even warm. i have used it at least ten times now and some of the cruisers have pushed 6000 lbs, single line and up it comes.
so SOME stuff from China is crap and some is wickedly good.
best of luck.
crushers
post ho
but $700 for a non-north american made motor is gouging by Warn industries ... just sayin..
Just my two cent...
If you have a 12 volts winch... taking 20 amp full load. A 24 volts winch will take half of this amp to do the same job at the same speed... but a 12 volts winch plug on 24 volts batterie will turn 2x the speed.
The max current that the winch take is when it's start. The rotor doesn't turn so all the energie is change in Heat and this heat is reduce at maximum when you run it at a good speed(normal operation and normal load).
With 24 volts on 12volts winch you need to go at twice the speed and you put more energie by changing the speed of it's magnetic field. So more energie at start = more heat for electrical component and more speed = more heat for mechanical component.
It's will work.. like my 12volts lightbulb on my 24volts system.. but it's mean more heat.. so I change it many time a years if I forget it .. but it's work... If you want to do this with a winch.. look how much it's cost for a resistance of the same impedance of your winch and put it in parallel.
V= R * I
12 volts = R * 20 amp so it's take 12/20 = R = 0.6 ohm.. at 20 amp it's take you a .6 ohm with
P= V*I 12 volts * 20 amp = 240 watts...
Not sure you can find a resistance like that but maybe... But it's will cost you twice the power to winch but the resistance will take the extra charge in heat. and you will have a 12 volts winch on a 24 volts system.. a 24 volts winch will take 1/4 of that power. because for the same speed.. 24 volts produce twice the speed of and 12 volts and take half the current to do the job.
I don't read twice this message so if i'm wrong you can correct it
If you have a 12 volts winch... taking 20 amp full load. A 24 volts winch will take half of this amp to do the same job at the same speed... but a 12 volts winch plug on 24 volts batterie will turn 2x the speed.
The max current that the winch take is when it's start. The rotor doesn't turn so all the energie is change in Heat and this heat is reduce at maximum when you run it at a good speed(normal operation and normal load).
With 24 volts on 12volts winch you need to go at twice the speed and you put more energie by changing the speed of it's magnetic field. So more energie at start = more heat for electrical component and more speed = more heat for mechanical component.
It's will work.. like my 12volts lightbulb on my 24volts system.. but it's mean more heat.. so I change it many time a years if I forget it .. but it's work... If you want to do this with a winch.. look how much it's cost for a resistance of the same impedance of your winch and put it in parallel.
V= R * I
12 volts = R * 20 amp so it's take 12/20 = R = 0.6 ohm.. at 20 amp it's take you a .6 ohm with
P= V*I 12 volts * 20 amp = 240 watts...
Not sure you can find a resistance like that but maybe... But it's will cost you twice the power to winch but the resistance will take the extra charge in heat. and you will have a 12 volts winch on a 24 volts system.. a 24 volts winch will take 1/4 of that power. because for the same speed.. 24 volts produce twice the speed of and 12 volts and take half the current to do the job.
I don't read twice this message so if i'm wrong you can correct it
M8000
Anyone tried using a 12v M8000 on a 24v HJ60? I get the impression a 8274 is a tougher beast.
Anyone tried using a 12v M8000 on a 24v HJ60? I get the impression a 8274 is a tougher beast.
