Nv4500 + fj60

[Elbert]

Looking for feedback on this setup. 1986 FJ60. Truck is used for offroad now for the most part some pavement cruising...I presently run 33 tires and will go with 35 tires later on as things wear out. Lockers front and back, 4.88 gears.

I currently run a 1999 GM Vortec 5.7, marks adpater, toyota 5 speed, stock engine. I've decided to go with a NV4500 GM maunal transmission. A couple of questions come to mind after looking at this swap. I plan to run a 4wd version of the NV4500 with 32 spline output.

So....

(1) is there any reason you cannot run a stock GM bellhousing with stock type GM clutch/pressure plate/throw-out bearing and internal to the bellshousing stock slave cylinder setup? Known issues? I know about the Advance Adapters bellhousing but I'm unsure as to why you could not run stock GM.

(2) Would it not also be somewhat easy to adapt a GM clutch slave master cylinder assembly to the FJ60 firewall and have that functionall without too much hearburn? Issues with this?

(3) Since I only have so much $$ to flush...and I contemplate keeping the stock front and rear axle housings...is there a GM transfercase that would make sense to swap now since I'm going with the GM transmission. Understood no change in axle housings. Is there a version of the NP205 that would work or should I stay with the FJ60 split case and just use the AA adapter to mate between the NV4500 and the yota split case?
I want to keep my VSS setup and presently it's part of the FJ60 transfer case.


I want out of the Mark's adapter game and want to run a GM driveline as much as possible.

Constructive feedback requested. Local friend has first shot on the Yota 5-speed before I get flooded with that question. Appreciate any insight anyone has into this setup.

 

[SNLC]

Only my opinion based on experience with some of this stuff....

1: I do not see a reason why not. Thing is an internal slave is a huge pita to deal with if it fails. Think about it, you got to pull the tranny to deal with any slave issues. Only other issue I see with using a GM bellhousing would be if your motor is close to the firewal and you end up with clearance issues.

2: I see no reason why you can't use a GM external slave. I myself am not to happy with my FJ60 slave on a GM bellhousing. I am using a Ranger to bolt the stock 4spd to the v8 GM engine. Most of my issues with the FJ60 slave are in the bracket to mount it.

3: No matter what if you stick with the stock axles you will have an off-set rear prop shaft. That is the biggest issue with using a non-stock t-case. How big of an issue depends. I have a center pumpkin diff with an offset t-case in another truck and it is no problems at all. Thing is the truck never goes over 45mph. At HWY speeds you may have some vibrations from the offset, then again you may not. I noticed when I started working on my FJ60 that the prop shafts are a bit offset anyways, more then any other truck I have owned. Ideally you want the t-case output to line up witht he pumpkin, less angles is going to last longer and be strongest. I think your best bet is to simply keep the split case. If this is a dedicated serious off-roader then I would look into an Atlas otherwise I don't think any other t-case options are worthy of the work and $$ spent. Well, maybe a D300 and a doubler would be, otherwise nadda' in my book.

If the 5spd you have is an H55 then put me next in line for it as long as your price would be reasonable!

I got to ask why dump the 5spd? What is it about the tranny you do not like. Are you having issues with it? Have you ever driven a truck with an NV4500? They are super long between 2nd & 3rd (technically 1st to 2nd). Also you can start them in 1st not the low but they tend to shutter a lot if you do that so I always start mine off the line in low. It makes for a quick rev and shift to 1st but it is better on my truck. Rev is not as smooth as you might like in the NV4500. I am not sure if it has a synchro on rev, I think it does but the NV4500 can be a bit sticky to put into rev at times. I have a 94 Chevy with a 350 TBi and an NV4500 in it. Having said all that I am putting one in a dedicated off-roader but I know what I am getting into since I have driven a truck with an NV4500 a bunch. Also I will run an Atlas behind the NV4500 and have a super modified engine. The combo will work well for what I want but might suck for a DD.

 

[Elbert]

on number 2 I meant to say GM clutch master....I'll edit. I've not looked at GM external slaves... My thought was.....all stock GM clutch assembly, innteral slave, GM master (at firewall).
Yeah I realize that the trans would have to be pulled to change stock type GM internal to bellhousing slave setup.... just asking right now. WHile not a driver to the swap....if I have slave interal to bellhousing I'm fiarly sure I could run stock exhaust manifolds, which would help me from meltting spark plug boots on the rams horns setup.

My engine is probally 3 inches or so from firewall maybe more (due ot marks adapter spacing) we plan to move engine back towards the firewall a little bit further to give better distance between engine and radiator, and most likely I'll install a one inch body lift. We will maintian enoiugh distance at the firewall for access and maintence issues / clearnace.

Yes..I've driven a couple of trucks with NV4500, and I'm aware of the long "throw" between gears or that was my opinion.

I basically want out of the Marks adapter ( I have no issue with the yota 5 speed transmission itself).

Mine is not a rock crawler or daily driver, more of a trail rig that I sometimes drive on the road and sice it is quite heavy its got challenges...but its what I have for now.

I asked my buddies at the local GM shop and they related that they did not have many issues with the GM internal slave on a NV4500. I do realize that external is great for repair...but also AA is pround of their bellhousing but that may just be the course of action. THats what I'm trying to gett a feel for. I might play hell finding a good GM stock type bellhouising don't know if they service them new still or if they are crazy priced.

 

[SNLC]

well unless you need the low 1st for off-roading I do not see a lot of gain with the NV4500. You say you want to get away from the AA bellhousing and other adapter parts. Have you considered a Ranger in it's place? You can order the Ranger with a gear reduction instead of an OD.

There is nothing wrong with the GM drivetrain stuff, in fact it is very good. But, I also feel the same about the Toyota drivetrain stuff. The Toyota stuff has nice gearing without the long throw between gears. I was wanting to fit an NV4500 when I got my truck but have now changed my mind. If anything I would go to an H55 if I ever found one I considered to be priced reasonably, ie in the neighborhood of a new NV4500.

The internal slaves are every reliable but I do not know how they like water or silt, ie off-roading. I think of it this way....if I had a slave problem and I was on a trail or in BFE with the internal I am screwed for a trail repair. With an external it is very easy to service, fix or whatever in the field.

A lot of this just comes down to your uses of the truck, what suits those uses best, ect ect ect. With everything on my truck I am thinking of being in BFE Central America. Not many people think like that when modifying a truck.

 

[whitey45]

nv4500's require a different bellhousing,the to bearing retainer is bigger, and the chevy bellhousings have the slave on the right side which interferes with the driveshaft,this is why advance came out with there own to run a cruiser external slave on the left side.hth

 

[Kurtis]

I think the nicest setup would be the 4500 to a np205 and a 14 bolt rear. It would be cheaper than just about anything else and work well. There is another newer chain driven Chevy t Case that works well with the nv4500 as well that is not as big. I can't remember the number but I would look into that as well. It would probably be easier fitment wise

My buddy and I dropped a 454 th400 and np205 into his 60 and that is a nice combo. I think he paid $250 for a good th400 with np205 attached ready to go.The only tricky part is the massive size of the 205. He has a 2" bl and its still a tight fit. Defiantly do able with a 1" bl and some work. I would probably reshape the floor panel above it as opposed to too much bl in my opinion. It comes out in a space where it wouldn't be hard or interfere with the cab much at all to add a little tunnel for clearance. The advantage of the 4500 here as well is it is a lot shorter than a th400 so if you did run a 205 it will come out in a position that has quite a bit more room than where it came out for us. The floor pan dips down the farther you go back so the shorter your drive train the more room you have.

On mine I have the 4l60e to the split case and it works just fine but I'd rather ditch the adapter and have a straight Chevy drive train from engine to rear axle.

The overdrive on a 4500 is also quite a bit better than the h55. I think its .73 as opposed to .85.

 

[Elbert]

Appreciate the feedback.

Good idea on considering the mud,water, silt issues with the GM internal slave. I don't know how well it tolerates that stuff either. Certainly if you have an internal slave and it screws up, you're not going to fix it in the field.

it may be best to just run the AA bellhousing and suggested parts as they are a known solution.

I agree on the GM transfercase and 14 bolt rear, but I have too much money tied up in the prsent axle assemblies to just trash them or even try to sell them used.

 

[PAToyota]

My K2500 has the external slave. I've replaced the slave and the line once because most of it is plastic and cracked over time. I've considered options for replacing it with something more durable, but haven't come up with anything yet.

 

[Fossil]

Is there any additional information available about the reliability of the internal slave in wet, muddy or dirty conditions? I have a 2004 donor Silverado HD and I was planning to use the stock GM clutch components for my transplant.
Cheers!

 

[lehiguy]

There is somebody on Mud that has used an internal slave successfully with an NV4500 conversion. I do not know what master he used. I am not an fan of the early versions of the NV4500 used in Chevys up through 1994 with the crazy low first gear. As has been said, it make for an excessive gap between gears. The '95 and later Chevys and all Dodges used a 5.6:1 first and the gears are tighter spaced. Even so, I rarely use first on the street unless I'm towing something heavy or I just need to creep. The external slave Chevy bellhousings utilize shamefully poor quality hardware, and you can't use it because it hang's in the front driveshaft's path, so it has to go somewhere else. AA makes some nice but expensive hardware. The Toyota slave is a great piece of hardware, in fact it's reccomended by AA for many of their bellhousings. I butchered a stock Chevy bellhousing and moved the release hardware to the driver's side using the older, indestructable Chevy release arm, pivot ball, Toyota slave, a fabbed bracket for the slave and a fabbed, adjustable rod. The shifter comes up through the floor a few inches farther forward than stock. I did have to cut and weld the shifter stub to get the correct angle, but that's easy enough to do. Shifter feel is excellent, better than my H55, it's quieter too. I used an NP241 T-case and I like it. The 2.72:1 low is great.

 

[Elbert]

if anyone knows of a NV4500 FJ60 let me know ...as I would like to get some pictures..etc.

Right now looks like we'll take the route of 1999 or so 4wd NV4500 and run AA bellhousing, probally want get started on any of this until Dec time frame or a little later.

 

[lehiguy]

if anyone knows of a NV4500 FJ60 let me know ...as I would like to get some pictures..etc.

Right now looks like we'll take the route of 1999 or so 4wd NV4500 and run AA bellhousing, probally want get started on any of this until Dec time frame or a little later.

Here is some info, you may have already seen it. http://www.high-impact.net/transmission_and_gear/nv4500.htm#NV4500: General Information: I always wondered if older BHs could not be machined for the NV4500's bearing retainer. They are a dime a dozen in wrecking yards. Just a thought.

 

[Elbert]

thanks for the post...I've been reading various sites that I've come across doing google searches..pretty good info there.

 

[boysrus]

I recently put a NV4500 behind a 5.3L vortec in my 40. When I bought the tranny, it came with all of the bellhousing/clutch/internal slave stuff. I let AA tlak me into their bellhousing/clutch/flywheel stuff that was indeed big $$$$. It's all working fine, but I couldn't help but wonder if the GM stuff wouldn't have been just as good. Yes, it's a problem if you do have slave cylinder problems, but does that realy happen any more frequently than say clutch disk problems? I don't know.

What I really liked about the NV4500 swap is that it make the overall length just about the same as stock and the shifter came up in a great spot!

 

[Elbert]

I recently put a NV4500 behind a 5.3L vortec in my 40. When I bought the tranny, it came with all of the bellhousing/clutch/internal slave stuff. I let AA tlak me into their bellhousing/clutch/flywheel stuff that was indeed big $$$$. It's all working fine, but I couldn't help but wonder if the GM stuff wouldn't have been just as good. Yes, it's a problem if you do have slave cylinder problems, but does that realy happen any more frequently than say clutch disk problems? I don't know.

What I really liked about the NV4500 swap is that it make the overall length just about the same as stock and the shifter came up in a great spot!

That's the million dollar question. stock GM vs AA bellhousing. Stock bad point is the internal slave on certain year models.

Would you mind sending me some pictures of your engine where I can see the firewall clearance? And where I could see the shifter placement inside the cab....and if your really crazy how about one or two showing the trans/bellhousing from underneath... PM me and I'll provide my email address or I think its one of the options in the msg field or just post up pictures here on this thread.

So you have 5.3 engine, AA bellhousing, NV4500, and then an adapter to mate with stock FJ60 transfercase? or what?

My only concern right now...is firewall clearance vs. transmission shift tower clearance... ie.. can I set the engine reasonablly close to the firewall and allow the NV4500 shift tower to clear or be close to clearing the stock opening at the floorboard.

 

[77TPIFJ]

I agree on the GM transfercase and 14 bolt rear, but I have too much money tied up in the prsent axle assemblies to just trash them or even try to sell them used.

pm sent

 

[boysrus]

That's the million dollar question. stock GM vs AA bellhousing. Stock bad point is the internal slave on certain year models.

Would you mind sending me some pictures of your engine where I can see the firewall clearance? And where I could see the shifter placement inside the cab....and if your really crazy how about one or two showing the trans/bellhousing from underneath... PM me and I'll provide my email address or I think its one of the options in the msg field or just post up pictures here on this thread.

So you have 5.3 engine, AA bellhousing, NV4500, and then an adapter to mate with stock FJ60 transfercase? or what?

My only concern right now...is firewall clearance vs. transmission shift tower clearance... ie.. can I set the engine reasonablly close to the firewall and allow the NV4500 shift tower to clear or be close to clearing the stock opening at the floorboard.

Sorry - just nw getting back on here. Yes, 5.3 Vortec, AA bellhousing and NV4500 - then to an Orion, one-piece case. Mine is in a 40, not a 60. But, I can post some pic's anyway if it helps. But I need to do it from my other computer.

I don't know much about the 60's and where the stick comes up. On the 40, I positioned everything so the driveshaft flanges were in the original location. That put the shifter close enough to the original hole that all I did was elongate it and run a slightly larger boot - which you kind of need to do anyway because of the shift tower on the 4500. That then gave me about +/-6 inches behing the engine to firewall. The stock 6 was close - maybe 1 inch. The only flaw in my approach was that it put the front of the motor pretty close to the radiator - which worked OK with my electric fan. But, I'll never be able to run a mechanical fan if I changed my mind.

There are a few pic's here:
https://forum.ih8mud.com/40-55-series-tech/515715-road-3-years-later-thanks-mud.html

 

[Elbert]

OK 40 issues are a little different I suspect. If I proceed down this road, part of our modificaiton will be to move engine to the rear to allow more room between front of engine and radiator core.

 

[boysrus]

I did a quick measurement from the bellhousing/engine surface to the front of the shift tower - it's about 14". The tower is about 4" square. Maybe that will give a little help to determine clearances. I suspect the distances to the driveshaft flanges would be different on mine, so can't help there.

 

[FL cruiser]

I've run an internal slave behind a GM6.2 diesel for over 10 years in a 60 without issue.
Until recently there wasn't an AA bell housing available for use with a GM version NV4500. I used a GM NV4500 internal slave bell housing.

The factory GM clutch master is .75" dia, but is plastic and kind of cheesy.
The Cruisers' master cyl is also almost .75 but doesn't have a long enough stroke. A Wilwood .75 works perfect an moves a GM 12" clutch with the pedal pressure of a Corolla.

Just pulled it off the 6.2 and put it behind an Isuzu