why hasn't an after market tune been developed for our 5.7's (1 Viewer)

[MikeVpdx503]

I’ve had my hand tuning numerous vehicles. Via standalones, piggybacks, and flashing OEM ECU’s (where possible). I’ve tuned my share of modded N/A and turbo’d Lexus’s (Lexi?), including my own supra twin turbo swapped 6-speed IS300. I moonlight tuning my personal Porsche 911 Turbo, to a safe 650hp. I’ll say I’m slightly qualified in this matter.

Toyota ECU’s are notoriously locked down. In the decades of someone being “close” to reverse engineering their ECU’s, I have yet to see a flasher on the market to directly tune their ECU’s. Honda’s have it with Hondata; Cobb tuners for subbies, Porches, BMW; Bully Dog for Nissan, Ford’s, etc. And many more that I did not list. But actual flash tuning for Toyota? I haven’t looked in a couple years but I still believe it’s unobtanium.

Which means one has to resort to piggybacks like Unichips. These are a much more expensive and an involved to install proposition.

That said, for N/A motors, there’s really not much additional performance on the table. At least without long term durability compromises, as OEM tune their motors to a high degree. For fuel efficiency and emissions, but that’s generally aligned with performance.

Engine tuning boils down to ignition timing and fueling. One can gain HP via advancing ignition or leaning out air/fuel. Again, not much more safe HP on the table with ignition, unless one wants to walk into the margin area where there is increased pre-ignition, knock, and stress on rods. Fueling is generally where tuners make more of their HP. They tend to run fueling leaner. So instead of air/fuel ratio’s in the 10:1 or close to 11:1 boundary, they may lean it out to 11.5:1. The actual values depend on the motor and rpm/load. But generally, they will lean things out. This always causes the motor to run hotter. Which again, walks closer to the pre-ignition/knock boundary, and potentially compromising long term durability.

The one honest hp gain here is a tune which takes advantage of higher octane. This allows tuning to legitimately run advanced timing, without getting into the marginal safe area. But one would also have to commit to always running 91/93 octane, unless there is a tune switch that allows one to switch back and forth.

Mat at OVTune has cracked the crypto issue for 3rd Gen Tacoma ECUs. His product is a direct flash to the ECU via cable and laptop. I flashed my 2017 Tacoma with a 91 min Octane tune and saw definate performance gains in addition to changes to throttle mapping, etc. Make highway driving in the 3.5 much better.

 

[Markuson]

Yes. Like Apple good at locking them down.

And like Apple...they work *extremely well*...but frustrate computer guys chiefly interested in customizing.

 

[NYC570]

I’ve had my hand tuning numerous vehicles. Via standalones, piggybacks, and flashing OEM ECU’s (where possible). I’ve tuned my share of modded N/A and turbo’d Lexus’s (Lexi?), including my own supra twin turbo swapped 6-speed IS300. I moonlight tuning my personal Porsche 911 Turbo, to a safe 650hp. I’ll say I’m slightly qualified in this matter.

Toyota ECU’s are notoriously locked down. In the decades of someone being “close” to reverse engineering their ECU’s, I have yet to see a flasher on the market to directly tune their ECU’s. Honda’s have it with Hondata; Cobb tuners for subbies, Porches, BMW; Bully Dog for Nissan, Ford’s, etc. And many more that I did not list. But actual flash tuning for Toyota? I haven’t looked in a couple years but I still believe it’s unobtanium.

Which means one has to resort to piggybacks like Unichips. These are a much more expensive and an involved to install proposition.

That said, for N/A motors, there’s really not much additional performance on the table. At least without long term durability compromises, as OEM tune their motors to a high degree. For fuel efficiency and emissions, but that’s generally aligned with performance.

Engine tuning boils down to ignition timing and fueling. One can gain HP via advancing ignition or leaning out air/fuel. Again, not much more safe HP on the table with ignition, unless one wants to walk into the margin area where there is increased pre-ignition, knock, and stress on rods. Fueling is generally where tuners make more of their HP. They tend to run fueling leaner. So instead of air/fuel ratio’s in the 10:1 or close to 11:1 boundary, they may lean it out to 11.5:1. The actual values depend on the motor and rpm/load. But generally, they will lean things out. This always causes the motor to run hotter. Which again, walks closer to the pre-ignition/knock boundary, and potentially compromising long term durability.

The one honest hp gain here is a tune which takes advantage of higher octane. This allows tuning to legitimately run advanced timing, without getting into the marginal safe area. But one would also have to commit to always running 91/93 octane, unless there is a tune switch that allows one to switch back and forth.

Companies like RR racing have been able to tune toyota ECUs for some time now, at least on the Lexus side. In the ISF as well as other models we use My Genius to flash the ECU. The last time I was at RR racing they mentioned that they had plans to tune a tundra but I'm not sure if they've done anything yet.

 

[mcgaskins]

Tuning throttle maps by making the throttle pedal tip in more aggressive is not really tuning in my mind. Yet tuners use this egregiously, because it creates a perceived “performance” increase as the motor responds more readily. “Quasi tune” describes it well. I draw this line because it makes zero more hp. A tune should actually create more engine output. I can just as easily tune my foot to step on the gas more.

I’m generally very against this style of tuning, especially for high horsepower cars or track work. What it effectively does is reduce the granularity/fidelity of the throttle pedal to fine tune delivered output. Sure, not so important for a 400hp 6000lb SUV. But in a 650hp 3200lbs missile balancing traction in a corner at the edge of adhesion, the engines response can be too coarse.

By the same token to your point, it can and will make a difference. For our cars, there’s one actually built in. That magic ECT PWR. And it probably goes farther, in that it changes throttle maps, shift points, and very likely VVTi maps such that it keeps the motor on boil more aggressively through transitions. At the cost of some mpg efficiency. Very useful when under tow!

Perhaps you misread or didn’t read what I’ve said about the PC. Never said it tuned the engine, but it dramatically “tunes” the driving experience. I know you have experience with real tunes in real performance cars as you mention again and again in your posts, but do you have any experience with a 16+ Land Cruiser? Serious question. I do, and I have a 6 speed LX570 that sits right next to it in the driveway. To say the power button has analogous responses in the 2 very different trucks without direct experience is incredibly misleading. Your knowledge of turbocharged Porsches has essentially no overlap here when you’re comparing the difference between 2 models of 200 series and how they respond to the PC.

Your earlier post about squeezing more performance out of the 5.7 was spot on, but this quoted post is misleading at best. If you’re in Denver and want to drive both my trucks back to back (I will disable the PC at first as well), you are more than welcome to as I’ve let at least 3 other forum members here do. You will be able to see firsthand the difference is dramatic and the power button in the 16 is absolutely not the cure all and can’t touch the 32 settings you get with the PC.

 

[TeCKis300]

^No worries buddy. I didn't misread at all. If you re-read what you quoted, I acknowledged that it can and does make a difference to the driver.

My post was to differentiate the different types of tuning going on. Some people, when talking about tunes, expect an actual performance or hp difference at the wheels. Others are looking for tailoring to their driving style. I would think it's worth pointing out the difference here for someone to make an informed decision.

For those that might want to try what throttle mapping has the potential of doing, can try the ECT PWR button. Yes, it likely produces a different response in your 2016+. I do wholly believe that your car doesn't meet your driving style, and many owners there may likely agree. At the same token, my Porsche may be an extreme example, but it does reflect how it may not work for others. I'll say that leaving ECT PWR on when I do not tow, makes the throttle too jumpy and coarse to my personal liking, on my 2009.

 

[TeCKis300]

Mat at OVTune has cracked the crypto issue for 3rd Gen Tacoma ECUs. His product is a direct flash to the ECU via cable and laptop. I flashed my 2017 Tacoma with a 91 min Octane tune and saw definate performance gains in addition to changes to throttle mapping, etc. Make highway driving in the 3.5 much better.

Companies like RR racing have been able to tune toyota ECUs for some time now, at least on the Lexus side. In the ISF as well as other models we use My Genius to flash the ECU. The last time I was at RR racing they mentioned that they had plans to tune a tundra but I'm not sure if they've done anything yet.

Promising developments!!! I've been waiting a long time for this and I had first heard there might be a breakthrough on the ISF a couple years ago.

These breakthroughs will set the stage for tuning the 5.7L. Now it'll just take an enterprising business to bring that technique to the LC. Not sure there's enough volume of LC's for someone to make a business of it, but perhaps it'll first show up in the Tundra, and we can take what's applied there.

 

[JohnJB]

The Googles tells me there are several companies out there with canned performance tunes for the 5.7 in the Tundra from '07 thru '17. Looks like you get roughly 10-15hp and 20ft lbs at the rear wheels and requires 91 octane. Aka it will barely register on the butt dyno. Given the adjustment of throttle mapping in drive by wire vehicles and folks' results with just a PC, I'll bet the bulk of the feel the Tundra owners are getting is not extra power, but better throttle response. Toyota PCMs are most definitely cracked... heck, they don't even appear to count # of flashes on them so likely undetectable by dealer if you revert flash back to stock.

 

[MikeVpdx503]

The Googles tells me there are several companies out there with canned performance tunes for the 5.7 in the Tundra from '07 thru '17. Looks like you get roughly 10-15hp and 20ft lbs at the rear wheels and requires 91 octane. Aka it will barely register on the butt dyno. Given the adjustment of throttle mapping in drive by wire vehicles and folks' results with just a PC, I'll bet the bulk of the feel the Tundra owners are getting is not extra power, but better throttle response. Toyota PCMs are most definitely cracked... heck, they don't even appear to count # of flashes on them so likely undetectable by dealer if you revert flash back to stock.

This is very true from my experience with the Tacoma tuning. The performance gains seem mostly from fine tuned throttle response. Added bonus for me was improving MPGs from 19-20 MPG stock to 24-25 MPG tuned (on a performance tune, no less). Didn’t make a 3.5 into a 5.7 and never will, but make vast improvement over stock.

OV Tune solution to the flash counter is to reset the checksum at the time of flashing. The dealership can only tell the date of the last reset (which could be any battery disconnect) but not how many times it has been flashed. Took my truck in for service and no one questioned the tuning at all.

 

[blatant]

Too me, these trucks are incredibly fast for what they are, especially compared to my 100. Also, the ect pwr button I only use when towing or messing around on a ramp, as it's way to touchy under general driving. (compared to it engaged all the time in the 100) 200's seem plenty fast too me, but for how I drive, the 200 doesn't move for cars, cars move for the 200. No one tail gates, as tailgaters hate staring at the hitch and not seeing around.

 

[ageslurkin]

This is where I am interested - How much better mileage is available? Given that these aren't the most gas friendly even a small gain would be good.

This is very true from my experience with the Tacoma tuning. The performance gains seem mostly from fine tuned throttle response. Added bonus for me was improving MPGs from 19-20 MPG stock to 24-25 MPG tuned (on a performance tune, no less). Didn’t make a 3.5 into a 5.7 and never will, but make vast improvement over stock.

OV Tune solution to the flash counter is to reset the checksum at the time of flashing. The dealership can only tell the date of the last reset (which could be any battery disconnect) but not how many times it has been flashed. Took my truck in for service and no one questioned the tuning at all.

 

[Chocolate]

This is where I am interested - How much better mileage is available? Given that these aren't the most gas friendly even a small gain would be good.

FAQs | D.A.P. Tuning

MPG not guaranteed, but most report a 2-4 MPG increase on the highway.

The folks at DAP Tuning will make your Land Cruiser as efficient as a 4Runner.

 

[Hammeredsole]

I am working on getting a custom tune completed for the LC 5.7 with DAP. The truck has already been in and had the ECU imaged, and a tune is being developed as we speak. It’s due for initial tune and dyno session shortly.

 

[AnthonyLC]

@Hammeredsole Did the custom tune with DAP work out?

 

[Blasst]

muy interesante....some extra mpg would be nice. It would also be interesting to see it on a Dyno. Mine certainly has no lack of power. It will smoke 4 wheels when empty and not full of travel junk and tools. It would be fun to do.....and I'll probably never do it. Hah

 

[catastrofe]

This is very true from my experience with the Tacoma tuning. The performance gains seem mostly from fine tuned throttle response. Added bonus for me was improving MPGs from 19-20 MPG stock to 24-25 MPG tuned (on a performance tune, no less). Didn’t make a 3.5 into a 5.7 and never will, but make vast improvement over stock.

OV Tune solution to the flash counter is to reset the checksum at the time of flashing. The dealership can only tell the date of the last reset (which could be any battery disconnect) but not how many times it has been flashed. Took my truck in for service and no one questioned the tuning at all.

I had the OVTune in my '18 Tacoma and loved it. We need to get Mat to work on the LC. . .I just dropped him a note. Since he already has 5.7L tunes for Tundra and Sequoia, it shouldn't be a stretch.

 

[edwardg]

I had the OVTune in my '18 Tacoma and loved it. We need to get Mat to work on the LC. . .I just dropped him a note. Since he already has 5.7L tunes for Tundra and Sequoia, it shouldn't be a stretch.

He’s working on one right now, actually.

 

[Hammeredsole]

@Hammeredsole Did the custom tune with DAP work out?

No, he went on and on about how it was going to be easy, he had access to an AWD drive, etc etc. I tried calling back multiple times, and I kept getting blown off. I stopped back in the shop, and he gave me some line about the ECU needing to be updated by the dealer. When I asked more details; such as how do you know, what updates, etc; he had absolutely no clue.

I've come to the conclusion that he is probably just bumping timing and shift points and charging a lot of money from Tundra owners. I am happy with the Toyota tune now, and I'm glad I left it stock.

 

[MikeVpdx503]

I had the OVTune in my '18 Tacoma and loved it. We need to get Mat to work on the LC. . .I just dropped him a note. Since he already has 5.7L tunes for Tundra and Sequoia, it shouldn't be a stretch.

He’s working on one right now, actually.

Very exciting news ! The process for tuning the Tacoma with OVTune was extremely easy and bug free by the time I got in. Mat’s software product is continuously refined based on user input as you can see by several threads on Tacoma World. I saw a 20% MPG (highway) improvement on the 91 Oct tune and much better shift points. I understand Mat has gone further with specific tunes for popular gear ratios and gear select (not just top gear limit) in S mode for the Tacoma. That would be awesome in the LC.

 

[catastrofe]

He’s working on one right now, actually.

Here's Mat's response:

Mathew Wilson (OVTune)

Jul 24, 18:39 EDT

Hello,

We have some plans for development in the future but we do not have any details at the moment.

Thank you.
-
OVTune - Lead Developer/ECU Assembly Development/Toyota Calibration Lead
www.ovtuned.com
CUSTOMER SUPPORT / BUSINESS HOURS
9:00 AM - 4:00 PM EST ( MON - FRI )
Office closed on weekend/holidays
Please allow 1-3 business days for response to all inquiries.

 

[LouisianaFJ]

even with a good piggy back you still need additional items to truly generate some power, a piggy back will allow for messing with fuel points, but still need to move some more air, so cold air intake, some equal length headers, exhaust plus the tune and you will still get a negligible gain

I've got more experience with 2JZs but just "for instance" on that platform i remember a guy doing those exact mods, designed and build equal length headers for his IS300... all those mods net 50hp and hitting around 230 at the wheels. Which hey is great, but you could buy a turbo kit and generate 400+ at the wheels easily.

the lock down is real though, spent a lot of time with my tuner messing with a haltech cause he was fighting the car the whole time