95% on road driver, trips to National parks but nothing that would risk my wife and children getting stuck. Moving to Germany soon (army) and when there is “winter weather” it is illegal to drive on a tire without the 3 peak winter symbol. I currently have an almost new set of Michelin defender LTX all seasons that work fine for how we use the vehicle but it doesn’t have the symbol. Question is- I can get another set of 2013 wheels and put legit winter/snow/ice/ studdable tires on and it would cost about the same as buying an all terrain (ko2) with the 3 peak symbol and installing those on my existing wheels. Can anyone give an opinion on why one course of action would be better or on how good an all terrain actually is in snow/ice?
Winter and summer tires or All terrains with 3 peak rating?
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I bought a set of takeoff Land Cruiser wheels and installed Blizzaks. I run these all winter, then swap out the tire/wheel combo in the spring for my KO2s. Easy.
How many sets do you want while in Germany? Seems easiest to deal with it now. Falken also makes a 3pmsf AT in many sizes.
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Most people have two sets. They take up a lot of space though that’s why I’m considering just replacing the Michelins with ATs. If the Michelins weren’t 6 months old it would be a no brainer but I have $1100 in the tires. I also don’t know if ATs are worth the trade offs when I don’t do hardcore off roading. I’ll drive on beaches and dirt and gravel but rarely mud and never in deep mud.
Id keep the Michelins and just buy winter tires only. Have them swapped over when needed. Many tire places will store your tires for free during the off season. Or buy a tire rack that bolts to the wall and store them there. I would not buy ATs if you don’t need them.
I had K02s on my 100 series and they were OK in the snow but terrible in the ice. I just got a 200 series and decided to purchase a dedicated set of winter tires. I went with the Michelin X-Ice. I've run Blizzaks on our Subaru for 5 years and I'll never go back to normal tires (M+S) during the winter.
Eyedaho
SILVER Star
The 3 peak rating doesn't mean much. As others are suggesting, if you can figure out the storage for an extra set of wheels/tires and you will be driving in winter conditions then buy winter tires. If you will own the vehicle long enough to go through a set of tires, you may as well buy them now and have the best tire for the conditions, in my mind. The first time you're driving in legit winter weather with legit winter tires it will all make sense.
Agree 3pmsf doesn’t guarantee much.
Is there a c rated 3pmsf tire that could get around the legal requirements and provide a solid ride, have good road manners, and allow for only one set?
Yes, the Toyo at3 lt275/65r18 comes in a c rated version. It isn’t clear from Toyo site if that model is 3pmsf but it is quite likely.
Edit tire rack says severe snow rated
Is there a c rated 3pmsf tire that could get around the legal requirements and provide a solid ride, have good road manners, and allow for only one set?
Yes, the Toyo at3 lt275/65r18 comes in a c rated version. It isn’t clear from Toyo site if that model is 3pmsf but it is quite likely.
Edit tire rack says severe snow rated
I'd keep the MIchelins for the 3 seasons and then get a set of Blizzaks or Nokian Hakkas for the winter. On;y way id run a 3pmsf AT tire is if I was confined with the amount of storage and could only have one tire.
scottm
SILVER Star
Loving my Nokian Rotiiva AT+. Year-round convenience, good for light off-roading, great in snow/ice/blizzard conditions here in Michigan. I've done dedicated winter tires/wheels, not a fan in our unpredictable weather.
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- #12
Thanks for the feedback.
So what are the real world winter conditions where you will be in Germany and how much will you be driving it that weather? Let that guide your decision. If it’s really winter, with snow and ice and you’ll be driving a lot, I’d say go with dedicated winter tires for the season and use the Defenders the rest of the year.
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- #14
I’ll be in the warmest part of Germany, however the law is that you must have tires with the 3 peak symbol if “winter road conditions (for example: ice, packed snow, mud, black ice, or frost) exist”. It may snow heavy once a year where I’ll be but it still gets around or below freezing all winter and it rains a lot. If I drive to the alps in winter- might as well be the snowy portion of Colorado.
Air Down Gear Up
Supporting Vendor
I somewhat recently got a set of Toyo Open Country AT3s which have a 3-peak rating. I didn't want to swap back and forth between AT and snows, so I wanted an AT tire that did *decent* in snow. (I know, I know, snow tires are the best. I do snow/ice racing with a caged Subaru outside of the 4x4 world that I run dedicated snows for, so I have a decent understanding of the difference )
Swapping tire sets isn't always practical, and there are times in Colorado that in one single trip I'll be on 60degree dry highways, dry/rocky 4x4 terrain, and a mixture of packed/fresh snow and ice where you need *something* for the snow but would tear up snow tires if you were running a dedicated set. year-round set of ATs fits the bill well for me personally.
I've been very pleased with the Open Country's so far. They are a little more noisy than other AT tires i've run on the hwy, but with the latest dump of snow in CO, i can now say they have some of the best snow performance i've seen in an AT tire. They will definitely 'get you home' if you find yourself on some exotic mtn pass in a blizzard!
Swapping tire sets isn't always practical, and there are times in Colorado that in one single trip I'll be on 60degree dry highways, dry/rocky 4x4 terrain, and a mixture of packed/fresh snow and ice where you need *something* for the snow but would tear up snow tires if you were running a dedicated set. year-round set of ATs fits the bill well for me personally.
I've been very pleased with the Open Country's so far. They are a little more noisy than other AT tires i've run on the hwy, but with the latest dump of snow in CO, i can now say they have some of the best snow performance i've seen in an AT tire. They will definitely 'get you home' if you find yourself on some exotic mtn pass in a blizzard!
I'm also in CO and also have the AT3s on my 200. They do well enough in the white stuff that I run them year round. Have not seen a need for snows with these tires.
I have two sets of wheels and tires which is a consideration if you want to be able to change over yourself and not have to deal with the winter rush before a storm that means long lines and potential delays at the tire shop. Currently have my Toyo AT3's on the rig and haven't yet felt the need to change over to the Blizzaks yet. Given your relatively light / occasional use of a dedicated set of winter tires I'd think the Toyo's may do well enough for you and have the added convenience of one less set of tires to store and change back and forth.
My one question to you all is what you doing about the spare? Are you all planning on having a winter setup and keeping that 3 season for spare? Not entirely sure how a 3 season tire mixed in with winter tires will affect drivability should the situation arise. My spare is an active spare in which it is rotated every 5k per the suggestion of forum members.
This is what I do, except I run Nokians in the winter (swap all 5). I would never drive on KO2s in the winter, they are terrible on packed snow. Like, dangerously bad. I use a Carista device to manage the TPMS settings.
If you have the room, I think 2 sets of tires is the way to go.
Get ATs they said, you'll be fine...
(skip to 1:10)
Here is a Ford Raptor going sideways after backing out of his driveway, probably the stock KO2s, LOL:
https://twitter.com/i/status/1480283966603157506
Another Ford sliding on ice:
MUST SEE: Camera captures man sliding down ice-covered hill in his truck - https://youtu.be/s-A3_lR-RQE
Most ATs with good siping, even the hard rubber KO2 (snow on snow traction is best) will do fine on snow.
Add in icy conditions, and all ATs will suck, some much more than others.
I have had horrible experience on Ice with KO2s, and somewhat impressive (for an AT) on ice with some old Generals, Falken Wildpeaks, and the Toyo AT3s.
As a recovering ski bum, I used to drive mountain passes 50-60 times per winter, and the old BFG KO was the only tire that gave me no confidence on those ski days.
I am very impressed with the Falkens, and have them on 3 vehicles year round.
I put on the Toyo AT3son my 200 last year and drove through a few snow trips ( 1,200 miles round trip through mountain passes from WA, MT and UT and one early snow this year and while subjective, feel the Falkens do a bit better with winter traction but I thought the Toyos did well (they are suprisingly noisier than the Falkens but not bad).
I run Hakkas on my 200 in winter, so other than some early season and late season ski trips, and my one 1,200 trip, they sit in the garage in winter.
When it comes to icy conditions, ATs can be scary, and all it takes is a patch of black ice to change your life. For me the added safety of true winters is a no brainer.
So I agree that ATs can perform in snow, and I took them on easily 500 trips through snowy passes, I have learned that there is no substitute for a good winter tire. Studded Nokians fit the bill for me.
Edit:
I've said this in other threads, but the 3 peak snowflake symbol is a joke. The "baseline" tire is an outdated all season radial. Any AT will be able to accelerate at 10% better than the baseline (note they test acceleration, not stopping!). I would think any AT with siping would meet the minimum requirements if they were tested as they will hold a lot of snow for snow on snow traction.
The Rubber Manufacturers Association is making a lot of money providing a "certification" (tire manufacturer has to pay to certify every size they want to have the 3 peak symbol) that really provides very little data to consumers.
When a studded Nokian has the same symbol as a KO2, you know it isn't telling you much of anything. The rating should be based on a numerical system of at least 1-5 (1-10 would be better), where 1 is the current 3 peak minimum rating (10% greater than baseline tire), and moving up from there so consumers can see a true apples to apples comparison of each tire. I'd imagine no AT would get above a 3 or 4 on a 10 point scale, but it would give many of us the tools to make informed decisions, especially if we plan to run an AT all year round.
(skip to 1:10)
Here is a Ford Raptor going sideways after backing out of his driveway, probably the stock KO2s, LOL:
https://twitter.com/i/status/1480283966603157506
Another Ford sliding on ice:
MUST SEE: Camera captures man sliding down ice-covered hill in his truck - https://youtu.be/s-A3_lR-RQE
Most ATs with good siping, even the hard rubber KO2 (snow on snow traction is best) will do fine on snow.
Add in icy conditions, and all ATs will suck, some much more than others.
I have had horrible experience on Ice with KO2s, and somewhat impressive (for an AT) on ice with some old Generals, Falken Wildpeaks, and the Toyo AT3s.
As a recovering ski bum, I used to drive mountain passes 50-60 times per winter, and the old BFG KO was the only tire that gave me no confidence on those ski days.
I am very impressed with the Falkens, and have them on 3 vehicles year round.
I put on the Toyo AT3son my 200 last year and drove through a few snow trips ( 1,200 miles round trip through mountain passes from WA, MT and UT and one early snow this year and while subjective, feel the Falkens do a bit better with winter traction but I thought the Toyos did well (they are suprisingly noisier than the Falkens but not bad).
I run Hakkas on my 200 in winter, so other than some early season and late season ski trips, and my one 1,200 trip, they sit in the garage in winter.
When it comes to icy conditions, ATs can be scary, and all it takes is a patch of black ice to change your life. For me the added safety of true winters is a no brainer.
So I agree that ATs can perform in snow, and I took them on easily 500 trips through snowy passes, I have learned that there is no substitute for a good winter tire. Studded Nokians fit the bill for me.
Edit:
I've said this in other threads, but the 3 peak snowflake symbol is a joke. The "baseline" tire is an outdated all season radial. Any AT will be able to accelerate at 10% better than the baseline (note they test acceleration, not stopping!). I would think any AT with siping would meet the minimum requirements if they were tested as they will hold a lot of snow for snow on snow traction.
The Rubber Manufacturers Association is making a lot of money providing a "certification" (tire manufacturer has to pay to certify every size they want to have the 3 peak symbol) that really provides very little data to consumers.
When a studded Nokian has the same symbol as a KO2, you know it isn't telling you much of anything. The rating should be based on a numerical system of at least 1-5 (1-10 would be better), where 1 is the current 3 peak minimum rating (10% greater than baseline tire), and moving up from there so consumers can see a true apples to apples comparison of each tire. I'd imagine no AT would get above a 3 or 4 on a 10 point scale, but it would give many of us the tools to make informed decisions, especially if we plan to run an AT all year round.
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