Wide Tires in the Snow

[COS80]

I've planned to do big tires on my 80 since before I bought it. The one thing that concerns me is, given the amount of time I spend in the snow, is snow traction with 11.5-12.5" wide tires. Everyone says narrower tires are better than wider ones in the snow... has anyone here actually experienced this, or is it just another legend?

 

[gnob]

probably a good reason the Icelandic trucks use wide tires

 

[Pighead]

I like big tires and think they do just fine in snow. I drive slow though and if the snow is deep I might put chains on them.

 

[bj70bc]

you need weight to make wide tires work in winter, skinny is definately better to bite icy slippery conditions unless you are trying to float on the top of a snow packed glacier ie iceland 4x4s
for example i could not run (so called)12.5's on my 70 series in the winter, absolutely 0 traction even with winter ice tires, had to go 275 (which measured an actual 9.5") at the widest
again though there are caveats like dedicated snow wheeling.... in which case i run 12.5 trepadors at 5psi and they kill

 

[-MaTTi-]

for example i could not run (so called)12.5's on my 70 series in the winter

I’ve driven several winters with 315/70R17 Duratracs. They’ve been ok on the ice and snow. Also the same size All-Terrain KO2 were fine.

Now I bought 35x12.50R17 Yokohama Geolandar A/T XD G017, let’s see how they will be.

 

[Mark W]

I've planned to do big tires on my 80 since before I bought it. The one thing that concerns me is, given the amount of time I spend in the snow, is snow traction with 11.5-12.5" wide tires. Everyone says narrower tires are better than wider ones in the snow... has anyone here actually experienced this, or is it just another legend?

Who exactly is "everyone"? No one up here has ever said that. Well, no one who actually drives in snow anyway.

For hard packed snow and ice on pavement, narrow studded tires are the best. For actual "snow" use, wider wins. every time.

Mark...

 

[80t0ylc]

Yeah, there’s at least two different kinds of snow. Powder, which exists where the temp doesn’t rise above 20°F, even during the daytime or the wet crap that most of the lower 48 sees. Hard packed is the result of temps slightly above freezing and cooling down where it gets a hard crust, after dark. That’s where the narrow tires work better. They cut through the snow easier with less resistance.

 

[Mark W]

When I refer to "hard packed", I mean snow on road surfaces that has been beaten down to nothing more than slightly puffy ice. In that situation the type of tire and whether it is studded or not matter much more than the width anyway. In any off road snow, you want to stay on top of it as much as you can. "Cutting down" just gets you stuck in anything where the snow it more than a few inches deep.

There are all sorts of different types of snow, depending on moisture content (coastal snow is gonna be a LOT heavier/wetter/denser than alpine snow), age, temps when it fell and temps since then, how old it is, if it is wind blown or sheltered, shaded or sun exposed... and more factors than I can even think of right now. And then there are differing layers. Snow is complex stuff!

If you are unlucky enough to be dealing with very dry "sugar snow" that refuses to stick to the ground underneath it or even to itself... even after it is worked, moved and compacted, nothing is gonna stay on top and all you will be able to do is hope that some heavy throttle and very high tire speed will allow you to manage some degree of forward motion if it is not too deep. In my experience, even in that crap, wider works better as it becomes all about traction/friction and the narrower tires just can not generate as much.


But I have never encountered any situation other than on road ice, or snow so compacted that it is basically ice anyway, where wider is not better. Wider AND taller is obviously better than only wider.

Mark...

 

[80t0ylc]

When I refer to "hard packed", I mean snow on road surfaces that has been beaten down to nothing more than slightly puffy ice. In that situation the type of tire and whether it is studded or not matter much more than the width anyway. In any off road snow, you want to stay on top of it as much as you can. "Cutting down" just gets you stuck in anything where the snow it more than a few inches deep.

There are all sorts of different types of snow, depending on moisture content (coastal snow is gonna be a LOT heavier/wetter/denser than alpine snow), age, temps when it fell and temps since then, how old it is, if it is wind blown or sheltered, shaded or sun exposed... and more factors than I can even think of right now. And then there are differing layers. Snow is complex stuff!

If you are unlucky enough to be dealing with very dry "sugar snow" that refuses to stick to the ground underneath it or even to itself... even after it is worked, moved and compacted, nothing is gonna stay on top and all you will be able to do is hope that some heavy throttle and very high tire speed will allow you to manage some degree of forward motion if it is not too deep. In my experience, even in that crap, wider works better as it becomes all about traction/friction and the narrower tires just can not generate as much.


But I have never encountered any situation other than on road ice, or snow so compacted that it is basically ice anyway, where wider is not better. Wider AND taller is obviously better than only wider.

Mark...

Very informative! I can add, while driving on roads, that intermittently have snow and ice on them to be careful, whatever tires, you’re running, to slow down in corners that are shaded, or any place that is shaded, as it probably still has ice, maybe even black ice which is very hard to see.
While stationed in the Air Force, I may have encountered that “sugar snow” that you mentioned. North Dakota has a lot of wind and a lot of agricultural fields there in the winter time that mostly were dirt. Wind blown snow mixed with the dirt from the fields formed what we used to call “snirt”. With the cold temps and wind, it didn’t melt. It just blew around till it wore out…, but if you got some inside, it made a god-awful ugly puddle of muddy water.

 

[coleAK]

probably a good reason the Icelandic trucks use wide tires

That is because they are driving off road. On road narrower are better.

 

[coleAK]

In in Alaska. I run 285’s (11.2” wide) in the summer and 265’s (10.4” wide) in the winter on my 200.

Most years I drive on mostly packed snow and ice 6-7 months a year.

My thoughts for on road driving and why I go narrower.

Narrower, better cut through fresh snow and slush and stay on the firm surface u see with. So they resist getting tossed around and less hydroplaning on the snow.

Wider (more surface area) are better for off roading, that is driving on snow that does not have a firm surface under it, so you want to stay on top as much as possible. In Alaska (and Iceland) think tundra/arctic trucks (not the Toyota tundra but up here almost all of them I see are Ford). But they all run Hakka 44’s on bead locks, that is 44” diameter 18” wide and at 2-6 psi. Also why I use wider skis in the back country than at the resort, I want to hopefully float over the rocks, trees, danger,…. Under the snow.

All that said the most important factor in winter is tires. Not as much width (as in the 0.8”) in this discussion but compound and studs. Running a real winter tire (not an AT with a snowflake) is the best thing you can do on winter roads. Nokians are the best, blizzak and x-ice are not too far behind. I run studded nokina hakkas on all my vehicles in the winter have done exclusively for >15 years.

Hakka 44’s Knowhow from the Arctic: Robust Nokian Hakkapeliitta 44 winter tyre is the newest top-of-the-line product resulting from the cooperation between Nokian Tyres and Arctic Trucks / Nokian Tyres - https://www.nokiantyres.com/about-us/news-article/knowhow-from-the-arctic-robust-nokian-hakkapeliitta-44-winter-tyre-is-the-newest-top-of-the-line-pro/


And for fun a tundra truck on 44’s.

 

[COS80]

Thanks for all the replies.

I've run separate summer and winter tires on most of my vehicles, for most of my life, but for this off roader that gets driven to the trail, in Colorado, it's about as impractical as it could be. We're having a blizzard here today, and we'll be back in the mid 40s Saturday... so it goes all winter. I'm not building a dedicated snow machine, and I accept the compromises.

This narrower is better thing pre-dates the internet and it persists, whether you've heard it or not. I've followed it myself. What I've never done, for fairly obvious reason - or seen anyone else do - is swap a 255 for a 285 and measure the change in performance.

My current 295 Nittos do ok in the snow, not great. I know all about compounds, studs, etc., but having never had this unique set of circumstances before, and as my impending regear will happen precisely once, I want to hear about first-hand experiences with the effect of width.

 

[Mark W]

Thanks for all the replies.


What I've never done, for fairly obvious reason - or seen anyone else do - is swap a 255 for a 285 and measure the change in performance.

My current 295 Nittos do ok in the snow, not great. I know all about compounds, studs, etc., but having never had this unique set of circumstances before, and as my impending regear will happen precisely once, I want to hear about first-hand experiences with the effect of width.

Done it.
I have not "measured" the difference. You can only quantify anything snow, traction or tire related factors so much. The variables just in the snow itself are immense. It is much easier to form a valid subjective "feel" on the actual real world performance from accumulated experience than it is to actually put definitive science based numbers on it.

Anyway, "first hand experiences with the effect of width".

On one occasion it was 33x9.5s and 33x12.5s on the same day in the same place. Swapped between 35x12.5s and 38x12.5s same day, same place too on another occasion, as well as operating virtually identical rigs side by side on the different tires. Other times it has been identical rigs on 265s, 285s, 305s and 315s operated over the same roads and trails for longer periods of time. Ran 35x9.5s, 36x12.5s and 38x13.5s all on the same V8 mini truck over a few winters. Just to be clear, along with same day comparisons I mention here, I have run all of these different setups for extended use in winter time conditions.

For winter use I have run ATs and MTs of different brands and tread styles. Swampers, Boggers, summer street tires, all season street tires and dedicated street winter tires. And I have also used almost every type of these listed tires both with and without studs (yep, including the boggers)

In every case, every comparison... for street use the type tire matters more by an order of magnitude over the size of the tire. And studs rule. For off road snow, size matters more (and studs do little except on something like a bare frozen creek, river or lake). And in the end it still comes back to... when all else is equal, for street use on packed snow and ice, narrow has the advantage. Once you get into untrampled snow, or even rutted up but still not packed, wider is better.

If you are just talking about the difference between a 275 and a 285, or a 305 and a 315 in the same tire... stop worrying about it, you will never be able to tell.

38 inch swampers and 40 and 44 inch Boggers, "Icelandic" 44 inch Dick Cepecks and 45 inch tractor tires have all performed well for me in deep off road snow. But none would be my choice for a winter street rig.


Been doing this for about 4 decades of real winter conditions now. My comments are all based on personal experience behind the wheel and on the tires, the majority of which has been for extended long term use with constantly changing day to day conditions.

I am fairly confident in the number and quality of the data points that make up my experience base.

Mark...

 

[COS80]

Exactly what I'm looking for, thank you, Mark.

 

[Gubbtratt1]

There's two schools of driving in snow:

Cut through the snow to get to the solid surface underneath. This is where narrow tyres, lockers and snow chains come in handy, and what's safest on the road. You need enough ground clearance though, or you will get stuck and it'll only get worse if you try to get unstuck.

Float on top of the snow. This requires very big tyres. Not 35x12.5, but more like the 44x18 coleAK mentioned. If you can fit 44x18s on your rig, go for it, but if you can't I'd get something narrow and a set of chains instead.