i run a 383 Chevy V8 in our FJ 45, I want to look into putting an injection system instead of the Carb, Any recommendations on brand? Or model?
Recommendations appreciated!
Recommendations appreciated!
Which is the best Fuel injection system for a V8
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It mostly depends on your budget. Under $2k gets you a pretty solid self tuning throttle body fuel injection and timing control, but if you want to go multi port, it’s going to cost more.
The self tuning throttle body kits are becoming popular options even for the stock land cruiser motor. I have a Holley sniper on mine and love it. But there are several brands and models to choose from. Get on you tube and check out some reviews and some of the initial startups
The self tuning throttle body kits are becoming popular options even for the stock land cruiser motor. I have a Holley sniper on mine and love it. But there are several brands and models to choose from. Get on you tube and check out some reviews and some of the initial startups
An LS series engine
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You can run the LS fuel injection on your SBC, it will be some work but it would be pretty inexpensive and work really well. Or you could do Cheby TBI
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Megasquirt.
Makes you learn, works with just about any engine depending on how smart/creative you are, very cost effective, has amazing possibilities.
Makes you learn, works with just about any engine depending on how smart/creative you are, very cost effective, has amazing possibilities.
I just finished (Mar 19') installing a FiTech (Base model 400 hp) model onto a 70's Chevy 350 in my 40. Started right up, been driving it as much as I can without a single issue (So far). I'm very in-experienced at electrical, so if I can do it, anyone can. PM me in you would like more info. ***Disclaimer*** - I also installed a new fuel tank, sender, Aeromotive in-tank fuel pump, new hoses, filter, wiring, etc before I started the Fi-Tech. I wanted to start the EFI install with a solid Fuel system first. (This is important and required the most research).
I installed a Holley Stealth Ram MPFI system on my 383. The actual installation was not hard. I downloaded a preset program for my application and several others but none of the Holley programs ran correctly. It would have taken a good amount of learning to get the program right on my own. I was short on time so took it to a shop to have them tune it. They had to adjust all the Holley preset program values and cancel out the wideband O2 sensor to get it running correctly.
The stealth ram set up is certainly capable of more than I need for my use, I think a tbi set up would have been fine for my needs.
I am happy with how it runs now but if I had it to do over again I would go with a newer tbi system. The stealth ram was expensive, and required a knowledgeable shop to complete the install. Tbi would have cost less and from what I have read about install is sounds simpler and more plug and play like.
The stealth ram set up is certainly capable of more than I need for my use, I think a tbi set up would have been fine for my needs.
I am happy with how it runs now but if I had it to do over again I would go with a newer tbi system. The stealth ram was expensive, and required a knowledgeable shop to complete the install. Tbi would have cost less and from what I have read about install is sounds simpler and more plug and play like.
The decision point for EFI depends on a couple, external factors.
1) how experienced is the installer and user
2) how non-stock the motor is that it is supposed to fuel.
I've said time and again, that the best tuners are ones who can tune a carburetor. The motor itself doesn't care how it gets spark, fuel, and air - but it does care if it is getting the right amounts of each. Carbs are more straightforward because they are analog - there's an idle circuit, an enrichment circuit, and a metering circuit. EFI has all of those things but can do so in different ways - if you don't know the basics of why an engine runs well (or not) with a carb.... EFI will kill you. Add to this, if you can read a spark plug, you're miles ahead. The EFI system is supposed to check barometric pressure, air density, temperature, and check how it's doing with the O2 system - way too often, people come to mechanics to solve 'problems with that junk EFI' that are due to a sensor reading incorrectly.
Caveats said.... my non-inclusive list of EFI systems and ease of use. All I've used, tuned, or thrown away because they were junk.
Easy
EZ-EFI, Holley Atomic - is the simplest.... bolt on the throttle body, no tank holes, just a couple wires and boom, you're efi'ing. No spark control, very robust maps... perfect for the stock motor. And there is its problem. If you motor is more then 10% higher in output, the EZ EFI is going to be trouble. It takes your tuning inputs as advice to ignore. There are no fuel maps to adjust. I seriously believe that the only reason they have the 'input' for changing the tables is to make the person feel like they tuned their motor.... that said, you have a stock motor and it's really a good deal... but it also has no spark control - which is good and bad. Personally, I'm not a fan of EZ-EFI. Another way to judge.... is the motor stock? yes, then these types of systems.... their limit, though, is 400 hp.
Moderate
FI-tech/Holley Sniper EFI (that use throttle bodies) - both of these are a bit more robust in that there is boost control and fuel tables that can be tuned. To the beginner, know what you're doing because here be dragons. If you mess up with spark control (e.g. you don't understand how advance works and why), you could literally melt down your motor. Hp limit is roughly 700 hp or power adder.
Challenging
DIYtunes (megasquirt), Holley Dominator, Haltech, These are systems that will do whatever you tell them to do when you tell them to do it. They can control multiple injectors, coils, don't care what crank sensor, you can use them to control nitrous, boost, heck, even radio volume (so you don't lose that sweet, turbo noise) you use just so long as you program it correctly. These land bricked cars in the shop pretty often. Even if you do get it all right, you're still paying someone with a dyno to fine tune. With that said, anything north of about 700 hp needs the control these give.
Stock
The OEMs (by this I mean, GM and Bosch), have hundreds of engineers whose job is to tune, refine, and design EFI systems. Companies (like Howells) have done a reasonable job of helping these systems adapt to non-stock use; but they make decisions that may or may not be something you want or need. While you must eliminate the anti-theft devices on the stock stuff, there are things - e.g. the speed input on TBI, which, depending on the installer, may or may not be something they wish to retain. Old OEM - such as 90s TBI, struggle with cam changes and demand a reburned chip to control them. This is pretty cool if you're building a truck to drive from Alaska to Chile because you'll never be more then a few hundred miles from any place that has parts. Not just that but these systems are robust and capable of handling the deserts of Chile to the floor of Death Valley without any input from the programmer. Newer OEM (e.g. LS motors) have been thoroughly cracked by the aftermarket and can handle if, once you get to the mountains of Chile, you decide to bolt a turbo on to handle the mountain passes (10,000 feet or more). A properly done OEM system is better then most aftermarket.... unless you want more, then OEM quickly falls away.
1) how experienced is the installer and user
2) how non-stock the motor is that it is supposed to fuel.
I've said time and again, that the best tuners are ones who can tune a carburetor. The motor itself doesn't care how it gets spark, fuel, and air - but it does care if it is getting the right amounts of each. Carbs are more straightforward because they are analog - there's an idle circuit, an enrichment circuit, and a metering circuit. EFI has all of those things but can do so in different ways - if you don't know the basics of why an engine runs well (or not) with a carb.... EFI will kill you. Add to this, if you can read a spark plug, you're miles ahead. The EFI system is supposed to check barometric pressure, air density, temperature, and check how it's doing with the O2 system - way too often, people come to mechanics to solve 'problems with that junk EFI' that are due to a sensor reading incorrectly.
Caveats said.... my non-inclusive list of EFI systems and ease of use. All I've used, tuned, or thrown away because they were junk.
Easy
EZ-EFI, Holley Atomic - is the simplest.... bolt on the throttle body, no tank holes, just a couple wires and boom, you're efi'ing. No spark control, very robust maps... perfect for the stock motor. And there is its problem. If you motor is more then 10% higher in output, the EZ EFI is going to be trouble. It takes your tuning inputs as advice to ignore. There are no fuel maps to adjust. I seriously believe that the only reason they have the 'input' for changing the tables is to make the person feel like they tuned their motor.... that said, you have a stock motor and it's really a good deal... but it also has no spark control - which is good and bad. Personally, I'm not a fan of EZ-EFI. Another way to judge.... is the motor stock? yes, then these types of systems.... their limit, though, is 400 hp.
Moderate
FI-tech/Holley Sniper EFI (that use throttle bodies) - both of these are a bit more robust in that there is boost control and fuel tables that can be tuned. To the beginner, know what you're doing because here be dragons. If you mess up with spark control (e.g. you don't understand how advance works and why), you could literally melt down your motor. Hp limit is roughly 700 hp or power adder.
Challenging
DIYtunes (megasquirt), Holley Dominator, Haltech, These are systems that will do whatever you tell them to do when you tell them to do it. They can control multiple injectors, coils, don't care what crank sensor, you can use them to control nitrous, boost, heck, even radio volume (so you don't lose that sweet, turbo noise) you use just so long as you program it correctly. These land bricked cars in the shop pretty often. Even if you do get it all right, you're still paying someone with a dyno to fine tune. With that said, anything north of about 700 hp needs the control these give.
Stock
The OEMs (by this I mean, GM and Bosch), have hundreds of engineers whose job is to tune, refine, and design EFI systems. Companies (like Howells) have done a reasonable job of helping these systems adapt to non-stock use; but they make decisions that may or may not be something you want or need. While you must eliminate the anti-theft devices on the stock stuff, there are things - e.g. the speed input on TBI, which, depending on the installer, may or may not be something they wish to retain. Old OEM - such as 90s TBI, struggle with cam changes and demand a reburned chip to control them. This is pretty cool if you're building a truck to drive from Alaska to Chile because you'll never be more then a few hundred miles from any place that has parts. Not just that but these systems are robust and capable of handling the deserts of Chile to the floor of Death Valley without any input from the programmer. Newer OEM (e.g. LS motors) have been thoroughly cracked by the aftermarket and can handle if, once you get to the mountains of Chile, you decide to bolt a turbo on to handle the mountain passes (10,000 feet or more). A properly done OEM system is better then most aftermarket.... unless you want more, then OEM quickly falls away.
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I feel the need to step back. There are a couple of levels of EFI.
1. The most basic has been mentioned. Bolt on a throttle body injection and tune it up using whatever tools you have at hand. These are simple and easy and get you the reliability of EFI.
2. The next level, that I suggest is a good idea, is an EFI that takes O2 sensor input and either a MAP or MAF. These systems are self tuning (once you get them set up) and the odds of melting down your engine are significantly reduced and they will ususally tell you if there's something wrong. You can also fine tune them to maximize mileage or horsepower.
3. The next level is one that takes over ignition timing. This means the computer is handling timing advance on the fly - dynamically. This really allows you to fine tune an engine. But, it's also really complicated on an engine like yours and I don't think it's worth the effort. If you have a points distributor, upgrade it to electronic ignition and call it good.
I cant' help responding to the carburetor comment. Carburetors are in tune for about day after they are set up. Then, changing barometric pressure, changing altitude, changing weather, and time all contribute to moving it out tune. Add a vacuum advance distributor and the thing is very rarely in perfect tune.
The big advantage of an EFI system with O2 sensors and MAP or MAF is that it's self tuning. It's always running near stoich, already running clean, always getting near the best mileage, plugs aren't getting fouled, etc.
Once you go EFI with O2 and MAP or MAF, then you stop thinking like a carburetor and start thinking of the engine as an air pump - which is what an engine is. Once you get into that head space, then tuning is very different. It's all about airflow. You don't tune and EFI system like a carburetor with an injector. It's totally different way of looking at it. A carburetor is a remarkable piece of equipment. But, it's an artifact of last century.
1. The most basic has been mentioned. Bolt on a throttle body injection and tune it up using whatever tools you have at hand. These are simple and easy and get you the reliability of EFI.
2. The next level, that I suggest is a good idea, is an EFI that takes O2 sensor input and either a MAP or MAF. These systems are self tuning (once you get them set up) and the odds of melting down your engine are significantly reduced and they will ususally tell you if there's something wrong. You can also fine tune them to maximize mileage or horsepower.
3. The next level is one that takes over ignition timing. This means the computer is handling timing advance on the fly - dynamically. This really allows you to fine tune an engine. But, it's also really complicated on an engine like yours and I don't think it's worth the effort. If you have a points distributor, upgrade it to electronic ignition and call it good.
I cant' help responding to the carburetor comment. Carburetors are in tune for about day after they are set up. Then, changing barometric pressure, changing altitude, changing weather, and time all contribute to moving it out tune. Add a vacuum advance distributor and the thing is very rarely in perfect tune.
The big advantage of an EFI system with O2 sensors and MAP or MAF is that it's self tuning. It's always running near stoich, already running clean, always getting near the best mileage, plugs aren't getting fouled, etc.
Once you go EFI with O2 and MAP or MAF, then you stop thinking like a carburetor and start thinking of the engine as an air pump - which is what an engine is. Once you get into that head space, then tuning is very different. It's all about airflow. You don't tune and EFI system like a carburetor with an injector. It's totally different way of looking at it. A carburetor is a remarkable piece of equipment. But, it's an artifact of last century.
I'm going to update this (dragging it in from the way-back machine)
Since I wrote this (and reading the comment below my last comment) - 2 things
1) self-tuning is a lie. Here's the issue. Self tuning takes a moment in time and extrapolates how to get the engine running best. It changes the base tables to do this. There are several problems here - first, temperature is variable, second, elevation, third humidity (all combined to create a 'density elevation' that drastically changes your engine's needs) thus the data coming in changes the tune. Say you have a rig that you ran at Tahoe, put it on a trailer then took it to Glamas. Your tune would utter suck because the data being used would be (literally) all over the map. Most EFI systems have a limit to the amount of change the computer can make to the base tune... from as much as 50% to as low as 10%. (Sniper, FiTech, and IIRC FAST all start at 30%).* I'm going for brevity, so if someone wants the longwinded explanation - I'll do it, but suffice to say those major changes to the tune could make it great - or FAR more likely, will make your vehicle run awesome in some RPM range but make you pull your hair out at other points - add to this that you're using the handheld rather then a laptop and you'll sell your car and buy a horse. The best fix for this is multiple tunes that you load or shut off self-learning (to the best of your ability). There are more fixes but we're back to the hundreds of engineer thing - they create a basemap that has very little self-tuning (read, none at all) because they spent the time validating the car on hot days, cold days, humid days, and then added elevation to each of those data points. If your vehicle is running great but then doesn't - reload your base map that you saved regularly... you DO save it regularly, right?
2) I'm now running a home-built port-fire, coil per cylinder system on a 427 ci bbc - it's not easier. Worth it, from my perspective, but it's on a (mostly) race car so I don't care it runs like junk in cold weather or at altitude because I can change those things on my laptop.
*the narrower the self-learning is limited to, the better. The best is a full basemap that accounts for all weather conditions and locks the computer out from changing the base maps. My Corvette, is 10% and that's really too much but I don't drive it with the laptop connected enough to really get the tune down to 1% or less.
Since I wrote this (and reading the comment below my last comment) - 2 things
1) self-tuning is a lie. Here's the issue. Self tuning takes a moment in time and extrapolates how to get the engine running best. It changes the base tables to do this. There are several problems here - first, temperature is variable, second, elevation, third humidity (all combined to create a 'density elevation' that drastically changes your engine's needs) thus the data coming in changes the tune. Say you have a rig that you ran at Tahoe, put it on a trailer then took it to Glamas. Your tune would utter suck because the data being used would be (literally) all over the map. Most EFI systems have a limit to the amount of change the computer can make to the base tune... from as much as 50% to as low as 10%. (Sniper, FiTech, and IIRC FAST all start at 30%).* I'm going for brevity, so if someone wants the longwinded explanation - I'll do it, but suffice to say those major changes to the tune could make it great - or FAR more likely, will make your vehicle run awesome in some RPM range but make you pull your hair out at other points - add to this that you're using the handheld rather then a laptop and you'll sell your car and buy a horse. The best fix for this is multiple tunes that you load or shut off self-learning (to the best of your ability). There are more fixes but we're back to the hundreds of engineer thing - they create a basemap that has very little self-tuning (read, none at all) because they spent the time validating the car on hot days, cold days, humid days, and then added elevation to each of those data points. If your vehicle is running great but then doesn't - reload your base map that you saved regularly... you DO save it regularly, right?
2) I'm now running a home-built port-fire, coil per cylinder system on a 427 ci bbc - it's not easier. Worth it, from my perspective, but it's on a (mostly) race car so I don't care it runs like junk in cold weather or at altitude because I can change those things on my laptop.
*the narrower the self-learning is limited to, the better. The best is a full basemap that accounts for all weather conditions and locks the computer out from changing the base maps. My Corvette, is 10% and that's really too much but I don't drive it with the laptop connected enough to really get the tune down to 1% or less.
Talk to me goose. How do you get around the SBC distributor for spark, and the way that the LS uses coils and the reluctor wheel, crank and cam sensors for timing?
I have a '77 with a SBC of unknown origin. Early Howell injection system with 8 individual injectors. It runs poorly. No support for the ECM. I will eventually go LS, but if I could throw in a standalone harness and GM computer and get it tuned to run correctly, that would be sweet and save me the hassle of swapping in an LS. It is fine for crawling, but spits and sputters and lurches with anything more than 25% throttle input and/or over 3k rpm. It may be a combination of tune and worn hard parts....
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You would mount a set of LS coils, and a reflector wheel to your crank pulley. Or just use the distributor and just use the LS computer for the fuel injection.
5 years later in 2024 I would absolutely just install a LS. It would be way less work and way better. Gen 2 SBC is trash in comparison
I have LS power in my race car and it is great, all stock with a tune. In my wheeler, I have a stock TBI 350. Lugs great. I have had it at almost sea level all the way up to over 13,000 feet. I did nothing but turn the key and drive it. If you have a 350 variant, I would but on a TBI system on it that uses GM stuff. Starting from scratch, I would go LS all the way.
um, and about that change in the firing order? it's sequential EFI, thus, you'll have some issues....
why? first problem with the LS stuff on a SBC is the firing order for a SBC is 1,8,4,3,6,5,7,2, for an LS 1-8-7-2-6-5-4-3. To my knowledge, you cannot program the firing order in a stock computer. Aftermarket, sure, but then is it really an LS system? and then.... why? coil per plug shines about high rpms - but under 5k rpm? the juice is hardly worth the squeeze on the wallet.
So let's double down just a bit - so the BBC in my Corvette
is coil per cylinder and runs a Terminator X. I run a crank trigger because it's not simple to attach a reluctor wheel to a balancer as there is no room behind the balancer and if you put it in the front - now you have the fun of re-spacing all your accessories to the front 3/8" - which is what I did when I put on a trigger wheel (4 magnets on a wheel).
fun fact, though, you change the firing order in a Terminator X by moving trigger wires on the plug going to the computer - to me that is just wrong, but here we are.....
and why not an LS. The current motor is 433 ci with a huge bore, short stroke and 500 hp my rpm range from peak torque to peak hp is 4000 rpm (3k to 7k). Next up is 521 cubic inches and 900 NA hp.... give me a ring when you can get those cubic inches from an LS. In my '40, it's a SBC but if it ever died it'd get an LS - though when I built it 10 (freaking) years ago, it was the cheaper option - and still has some advantages in mounting accessories.
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You just move the coil and injector locations on the engine or re pin the wires at the ECU like you said you did on your car
Like I said, no reason when a $500 5.3 comes with it all already
not beating a dead horse, but delooming and rewiring from side to side is a lot of work. Especially since you have to do it both for the injectors and the coils.You just move the coil and injector locations on the engine or re pin the wires at the ECU like you said you did on your car
Like I said, no reason when a $500 5.3 comes with it all already
ah yes, the $500 LS motor that has no accessories which work with most old applications. but please, read again, I'm not anti-LS, I'm anti spending money you don't have to. The vehicle couldn't care less how you get 300 hp at the crank.... heck, as GM dyed as I am, I still think the 302 Ford motor is a better FJ40 motor.
Sorry to have shook the beehive!why? first problem with the LS stuff on a SBC is the firing order for a SBC is 1,8,4,3,6,5,7,2, for an LS 1-8-7-2-6-5-4-3. To my knowledge, you cannot program the firing order in a stock computer. Aftermarket, sure, but then is it really an LS system? and then.... why? coil per plug shines about high rpms - but under 5k rpm? the juice is hardly worth the squeeze on the wallet.
So let's double down just a bit - so the BBC in my Corvette
is coil per cylinder and runs a Terminator X. I run a crank trigger because it's not simple to attach a reluctor wheel to a balancer as there is no room behind the balancer and if you put it in the front - now you have the fun of re-spacing all your accessories to the front 3/8" - which is what I did when I put on a trigger wheel (4 magnets on a wheel).
fun fact, though, you change the firing order in a Terminator X by moving trigger wires on the plug going to the computer - to me that is just wrong, but here we are.....
and why not an LS. The current motor is 433 ci with a huge bore, short stroke and 500 hp my rpm range from peak torque to peak hp is 4000 rpm (3k to 7k). Next up is 521 cubic inches and 900 NA hp.... give me a ring when you can get those cubic inches from an LS. In my '40, it's a SBC but if it ever died it'd get an LS - though when I built it 10 (freaking) years ago, it was the cheaper option - and still has some advantages in mounting accessories.
I am also anti-spending money when i dont necessarily have to. I have a poorly running SBC with fuel injection on it with a no longer supported or programmable ecu, i got excited thinking there is an easy way to bridge the gap between just going full out engine swap. Im sure thats the ultimate end game for me, i just cant justify the work for how little i use the 40.
Regarding big CI LS, my good friend took a stock 5.3 block, sleeeved it and netted 454 CI. There was nothing cheap about it, but it was a really nasty NA motor. Then he threw a single turbo on it and it was wicked. I have a 415 CI LS3 in my sand car that does over 600hp NA at the crank. I cant imagine wanting that much power in anything intended for going slow or crawling. Would make for a good time in a street rod though!
I dont need any more convincing to not spend money on the SBC…..I just need to find one of the unicorn $500 5.3’s with harness computer and accessories. Ive yet to see one in the wild.
454 is so cute, you can just pinch them on their cute little manifolds ... my 433 is a destroked 454. LS is is a fantastic motor where it fits. Putting a LS3 in a 54 Chevy pickup right now - totally at my recommendation. I think they're great when you don't want to admit that your engine compartment is, well, small. Have a 6.0 LS in my 64 Buick wagon (only because my twin turbo 455 Buick will not fit). But that brings me to what I don't get - say anything that has a hint of negativity about the LS and suddenly the beehive falls and you have lots of annoyed buzzing. And beehive is a fun pun because... .let's say the two most favorite words for LS owners.... valve springs and lifters.... (can you hear the increased noise?)
The $500 LS with the $200 VSS removal, with the $400 accessory bracket kit, with the full rebuild because at 200k the center cam journals are no longer round, BUT IT WAS $500!!!!! and they'll fight anyone who suggests that, perhaps, the answer was 'not quite'. I cheaped out on my 6.0 LS motor by not boring or replacing pistons (and it had oblong cam journals) - $2500 to install it. The motor was 'free' - using their same calculation because I bought a 2002 Denali and parted it out - so the motor was free, right?
521 cubic inches. With the 4 1/2 bore spacing of the LS, it's theoretically possible but you haven't lived until you've seen a block flex - and flex it will with the torque such monsters make.