Vibration, dealer stumped, any thoughts/advice/help?

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scottm

scottm

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I've had this '03 a month now, and it's been in the dealer shop for two three-day stints to figure out this vibration. 69,000 miles on it. The vibration feels like a weak cylinder. It follows the engine speed, at what I think is the frequency of the engine rpm. It's faint at idle in neutral. Slightly more noticeable at idle in drive. Much more noticeable pulling away from stop signs, or holding the brakes and giving it gas while in drive. It's fairly noticeable accellerating moderately up to about 40 mph. Not so noticeable at steady speeds.

Other things I've noticed: plenty of blue smoke on startup (not white or sweet); it's losing coolant and I see no evidence of a coolant leak; oil pressure below 1/4 when warm. I checked the oil level for my first time this morning (I've looked at the dipstick for foam, but didn't check the level 'till today), and it's almost 2-inches above full. I don't think the crank is splashing in the oil: no bubbles or foam. My fear of an internal headgasket leak seems unlikely. I think they just overfilled it. Mileage has been a bit over 13 around town, seems normal. Haven't had it on the highway much to know that mileage. Performance seems adequate, better than my old 80. Dealer maintenance records are pretty complete, no evidence of abuse or neglect.

The first three days at the shop a national rep came in and decided it needed a new torque converter. The second visit they replaced the torque converter, and the vibration was still there. According to my receipt: They checked the compression, all 190 to 195. Swapped plugs, coil pack, and injectors from a known good vehicle. Checked cam timing. Checked harmonic balancers and flex plate for damage. Checked valve clearance and fuel pressure. Swapped out the mass air flow sensor. Ran the engine without the serpentine accessory belt. They put a lot into this and they weren't too happy Friday afternoon, so I just took it home.

What else could it be? I've got plenty of tools and know-how, capable of rebuilding an axle or pulling heads if need be, but this is under warranty, so I'd prefer to have them do the work. The blue smoke on startup makes me wonder about the valve guides, could there be a valve not moving well? Could the flywheel be out of balance? Could the excess oil be causing a vibration? Is there a Toyota Master Mechanic in the house?
 
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I can only speculate how it got high, they changed the oil 4,000 miles ago. They'll deal with that today, maybe an oil change.
 
scottm said:
Other things I've noticed: plenty of blue smoke on startup (not white or sweet); it's losing coolant and I see no evidence of a coolant leak ---. My fear of an internal headgasket leak seems unlikely. I think they just overfilled it.
quote]

Losing coolant without seeing a leak and oil level above normal. I would be very concerned about a headgasket leak.

I would change oil and filter, note oil level on dipstick. Also note coolant level. Drive for a couple of days and see if there is any change in the oil and/or coolant levels.
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A head gasket leak should be unlikely in an engine this young and well-built, but I haven't ruled it out at all. If the dealer had done the coolant pressure test I asked for I'd be more comfortable, but they apparently didn't. This problem is throroughly documented and covered by warranty, so now it's only an inconvenience, not the potential disaster of me doing or funding a major repair. Although I'll be nervous about doing the long vacation drives loaded with kids that I bought this truck for.

If my coolant is dropping, whatever the reason, there's a possibility the previous owner didn't catch it in time and did some damage. The big question is: how could that have caused or be related to these symptoms? A head gasket leak seems like it matches the symptoms, and I'll be watching for any signs of it.

A head gasket would be kind of Cruiser Karma, since fear of head gasket failure was the main reason I gave up on my otherwise wonderful 80. All the head gasket failures on the 80 forum did a lot of damage to my confidence in that truck.
 
Yep, Certified-Pre-Owned warranty is good to 7-years, 100,000-miles, and covers powertrain/drivetrain. I'm not sure what coolant parts it covers, maybe I should've ponied up the $700 for the platinum warranty. I figured I can fix anything outside the powertrain for less than $700, and didn't buy it.
 
Get a sample of the oil for a used oil analysis. It will show coolant if it is present.

Blue smoke is likely from the high oil level.

I wouldn't do anything yourself since this is a warranty problem. I wouldn't even take it home until it's fixed.
 
Fixed! Any more guesses what was wrong?

Wife took it in on Monday. They removed some oil, gave it back. Wife asked if this might fix the vibration, they said no. Asked if there could be any damage from the high oil, they said no. Asked what they're going to do about the vibration, they told her that they'd told me they were done with it, I had to talk to the sales dept. They're not a happy bunch.

We took it to a high-school concert that evening, wow is this thing smooth! And fast! I had no idea, I just accepted that it was a little rough like my 80, plus the Blizzaks might be a little rough. What an amazing difference! It was too much frickin' oil! They've searched this truck three times looking for this problem, spent a lot of money, and never noticed the oil level??? Or the low coolant and low power-steering fluid and empty windshield washer bottle and who knows what else. I considered getting oil changes there so there'd be no question of maintenance for warranty purposes - no, I don't think so. Nor will I be buying my '05 4Runner there, I've got another dealer looking.

So, I have a new torque converter and trans fluid. They went all through the engine and drivetrain looking for anything that might be wrong, ran diagnostics and checked it out. I'm not sure how comfortable I am about all that. They screwed up a simple oil change, what else? I'm a little nervous about the valve cover gaskets leaking after they had them apart, and I wonder if the spark plugs are tight enough or stripped.

But hey, it's all covered under warranty if anything goes wrong. :rolleyes:
 
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scottm said:
Fixed! Any more guesses what was wrong?

Wife took it in on Monday. They removed some oil, gave it back. Wife asked if this might fix the vibration, they said no. Asked if there could be any damage from the high oil, they said no. Asked what they're going to do about the vibration, they told her that they'd told me they were done with it, I had to talk to the sales dept. They're not a happy bunch.

We took it to a high-school concert that evening, wow is this thing smooth! And fast! I had no idea, I just accepted that it was a little rough like my 80, plus the Blizzaks might be a little rough. What an amazing difference! It was too much frickin' oil! They've searched this truck three times looking for this problem, spent a lot of money, and never noticed the oil level??? Or the low coolant and low power-steering fluid and empty windshield washer bottle and who knows what else. I considered getting oil changes there so there'd be no question of maintenance for warranty purposes - no, I don't think so. Nor will I be buying my '05 4Runner there, I've got another dealer looking.

So, I have a new torque converter and trans fluid. They went all through the engine and drivetrain looking for anything that might be wrong, ran diagnostics and checked it out. I'm not sure how comfortable I am about all that. They screwed up a simple oil change, what else? I'm a little nervous about the valve cover gaskets leaking after they had them apart, and I wonder if the spark plugs are tight enough or stripped.

But hey, it's all covered under warranty if anything goes wrong. :rolleyes:
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Great news...I assume the blue smoke exhaust is gone?
 
Yep, smoke is gone! I'm wondering how much oil is in the intake and EGR system from this. It seems like this could be bad for the cats. My wife mentioned that the oil pressure seems to be higher, that kind of worries me, I wonder if the oil was foaming and parts of the engine weren't getting much oil for the past 4000 miles.
 
The board has known the transmission is very sensitive to high fluid levels and now we know the engine is too.

Probably little chance of long term damage if the engine is running smooth now.
 
NMuzj100 said:
The board has known the transmission is very sensitive to high fluid levels and now we know the engine is too.
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Hold yer data points there, Hoss. Two inches above full counts as blatant abuse to me, that'd be a problem on most any engine. One quart shouldn't cause any problem, this could be three or four quarts, maybe more, depending on the shape of the insides of the oil pan(s) and block. This picture gives you an idea. The machine has not been built that can withstand stupidity, not even a Toyota.

I'm wresting with what to do next. I'd like to pull the intake and look for pooled oil, I've seen intakes full of oil before. I'll at least pull some hoses and take a look, the 80 had a problem with plugging EGR hoses. If there's plugging in the hoses, I should take it to a different dealership (further and less convenient) to have things cleaned out and documented in case there's trouble later. I don't even know if there's a PCV valve, but if there is it's been passing a lot of oil the last 4000 miles. The bigger dealership's mechanics might try to protect my local dealership's mechanics, or they may relish the opportunity to make a competitor look bad.
OilLevel.webp
 
Pulled various intake hoses, minimal to no oil in them, so I'm not worried about having pumped oil into my cats.

Changed the oil today, destroyed the oil filter getting it off, nice. The oil drain plug was similarly over-torqued. Fortunately, the belly pans came off easily, since half the fasteners were dangling loose, not even turned in all the way. I looked carefully at all the transmission bolts, even more doubtful now that they got everything together properly. It's not like I can go through and check them all.
 
scottm said:
maybe I should've ponied up the $700 for the platinum warranty. I figured I can fix anything outside the powertrain for less than $700, and didn't buy it.
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Trying adding it now! Its been done before! Trust me! :D
 
I can't believe how bad that dealer was. Would be a good place to steer other mudders away from if they don't make this right. I would think that a discussion with the GM would have a different outcome. Ask him/her if they are currently at or seeking SIGNATURE status. I have seen pretty shoddy work and service at a lot of places but within the Toyota brand, these kinds of shortcomings can always be corrected. There are too many people in that company that are paid to listen and respond to customer service issues to let this go. Were it me, I would not let this particular dealer get away with service on par with the local Dodge or Ford store.

I can't believe they told you it wasn't fixed and that they were done with it. How did that fly???
 
meh. I told my story to some people who are well-connected with the dealership. The mechanics don't care, the sales staff doesn't seem to care. Even though I was actively looking for another car, they still didn't even pretend to care. They sold me a fairly expensive car, and made $2400 on my 80.

Since then I bought a new car, not a Toyota, and not from that dealership. They lost a sale, maybe some future sales, and they won't see me for service.

The Land Cruiser is under warranty. The next dealership is far away, I may need their good-will some day, so I'll walk away from this fight. If anyone asks me my opinion, I'll give it. I doubt the dealership would care if I was on the front page picketing Toyota headquarters about this. They truly don't care.
 
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