Toyota DOT 3 Brake Fluid Composition ? (1 Viewer)

[OregonLC]

Why do you imagine that ?

Toyota seems to be placing the blame on fluids. The company making the brake systems wit problems is a partnership formed of some of the largest names in auto components.

Not arguing with you, but so then does the problem extend to other brands? It seems like if were on the manufacturer side then why would they have specific plungers for the few models that seem to be affected?

 

[jwagner]

Why do you imagine that ?

Toyota seems to be placing the blame on fluids. The company making the brake systems wit problems is a partnership formed of some of the largest names in auto components.

-my guess.... the company "making" the braking systems may not actually manufacture all or any of the components. they may just assemble a completed part such as a MC or caliper....again guessing here, but i cant imagine the foundry that makes the MC is tooled to make the rubber seals, and fluid cup. theres probably a factory that makes a million different rubber seals. toyota would design, whoever would assemble, and sub out the actuall parts manufacture of things like rubber seals (probably in china). i would imagine if a redesing is introduced mid-stream of a production run you would open yourself to to a slew of new problems. especially if the parts being put on werent the parts tested prior to production. ill bet somebody either hurried production or tried to save a few cents.
-i cant however imagine that a somebody producing or the company making the specs would suddenly add/remove something from a fluid that was proven to work. also probably made its way into a much larger field of cars, as opposed to a rubber seal which could be model specific. then again maybe someone was hung over at the fluid factory on monday.
-a very interesting topic. would be fun to know what actually happened.

 

[2001LC]

-i do think you need too take into consideration that a company that made sub-standard brake fluid would not be in buisness very long. imo brake fluid would have to be held to a higher standard than say motor oil.
-i would also imagine that the toyota issue wasnt the fluid but the switching of parts. they probably changed the composition of the rubber seals (or there supplier did), those may have not held up to any brake fuid.

How would one know they have a sub-standard brake fluid?

The issue may have been the rubber used in the seal, but Toyota has stated it is due to non Toyota brake fluid being added!

............. The company making the brake systems wit problems is a partnership formed of some of the largest names in auto components.

Yes and Toyota was a founding partner of the parent of the brake system manufacturer: AISIN - Products - Group Companie's Products

Not arguing with you, but so then does the problem extend to other brands? It seems like if were on the manufacturer side then why would they have specific plungers for the few models that seem to be affected?

Yes, Honda for one is part of the recall, others may surface.

-my guess.... the company "making" the braking systems may not actually manufacture all or any of the components. they may just assemble a completed part such as a MC or caliper....again guessing here, but i cant imagine the foundry that makes the MC is tooled to make the rubber seals, and fluid cup. theres probably a factory that makes a million different rubber seals. toyota would design, whoever would assemble, and sub out the actuall parts manufacture of things like rubber seals (probably in china). i would imagine if a redesing is introduced mid-stream of a production run you would open yourself to to a slew of new problems. especially if the parts being put on werent the parts tested prior to production. ill bet somebody either hurried production or tried to save a few cents.
-i cant however imagine that a somebody producing or the company making the specs would suddenly add/remove something from a fluid that was proven to work. also probably made its way into a much larger field of cars, as opposed to a rubber seal which could be model specific. then again maybe someone was hung over at the fluid factory on monday.
-a very interesting topic. would be fun to know what actually happened.

IIRC, one article said: some of the same year, make & models are not effected, which spanned 3 years or more. If this is the case, it would point to different seal being used in some of the vehicles, which would indicate change, possible in the seals rubber composition and or the source of it.

Regardless only one seal out of many within a closed brake system has been effected, this would indicate a rubber issue. When taken with Toyota's statement of fluid incompatibility (only when adding aftermarket fluid to Toyota fluid) would indicate this is a combination of issue causing failure.

So what chemical reaction would cause a seal to dry and curl with a change in fluid?

Is their any reason Toyota would not disclose the full cause of a brake failure?

 

[OregonLC]

IIRC, one article said: some of the same year, make & models are not effected, which spanned 3 years or more. If this is the case, it would point to different seal being used in some of the vehicles, which would indicate change, possible in the seals rubber composition and or the source of it.

I think you're spot on with this. So say the 3rd party manufacturer had a bad batch of plungers that still fell and your spec wasn't tight enough or your QC process didn't catch the miss so you couldn't pin it on them. What else do you do besides blame the fluid?

If the vendor provides parts to a wide array of makes/models then why isn't there an across-the-board problem? Why only certain vehicles? Are there really different material compositions spec'd model-by-model?

The liability tail for brakes has to be huge. To admit fault of your spec'd part would really open your self up.

 

[NMuzj100]

IIRC, one article said: some of the same year, make & models are not effected, which spanned 3 years or more. If this is the case, it would point to different seal being used in some of the vehicles, which would indicate change, possible in the seals rubber composition and or the source of it.

I actually think this points more to a fluid problem. What is more likely to change often or differ between assembly lines producing cars with the same MC. The rubber seals that come assembled in the component part or the Brake fluid created to satisfy a government standard with no composition requirements that is added to the system during assembly.

DOT - Part 571.116: Standard No. 116; Motor vehicle brake fluids.

Nothing in the standard addresses the composition of the fluid.

It does mention that the fluid will have to work with the following compounds
- styrene and butadiene rubber (SBR),
- ethylene and propylene rubber (EPR),
- polychloroprene (CR) brake hose inner tube stock
- natural rubber (NR).

But only tests compatibility against one. (SBR)

 

[2001LC]

One agrees' and one disagrees'. HMMMMMMMMMMM

OregonLC,

I may be spot on, I'm guessing that Š”Ž®‰ïŽÐƒAƒhƒ”ƒBƒbƒNƒX@ADVICS Co.,Ltd. uses various component suppliers for that one seal and those suppliers use various raw material sources. It's plausible somewhere along the supply chain one bad batch of seal got in the supply chain .

I assume those are rhetorical questions.


Nice bit of research MNuzj100 on the No. 116.

I've kept the following in mind, Toyota stated: "During vehicle assembly, Toyota uses brake fluids containing polymers that act as lubricants for certain brake system components. If replacement brake fluid is used that does not contain such polymers, or contain only small amounts, a part of the rubber seal (Brake Master Cylinder Cup) located at the rear of the brake master cylinder may become dry, and the rubber seal may curl during movement of the piston."

1) They are very clear: During vehicle assembly, Toyota uses.......
2) Equaly as clear on: If replacement brake fluid is used that does not contain such polymers.
3) Only one seal effected out of many.
4) I found only one company that makes Toyota brake fluid
5) Toyota is saying the barkes work fine as is, unless other than Toyota brake fluid is later added.

 

[NMuzj100]

This article has some interesting information ...

Toyota/Honda Recall -- What's Really Happening?

Toyota was using different brake system parts and fluids from one supplier. The problem was showing up in one of the master cylinders on the cars, using a specific, single type of brake fluid (of the two Toyota was using in these cars).​

From this article it looks like many cars got the problem fluid at the factory.

 

[2001LC]

I've read that article written by Steve Parker "several times now" thank you for posting it. I find it confusing and somewhat contradicting within itself and with the {Safety Recall A0M – Preliminary Notice} that came directly from Toyota to the Dealer, which I've reposted at the bottom here.

Oct, 22 2010 article by Steve Parker:

"Brian Lyons, Toyota's Director of Safety and Quality Communications, told me that both the Toyota and Honda problem, as similar as they seem, could be related to the (he start out saying its parts) same parts coming from the same supplier
Here's what they think ("thinks", Toyota has stated what cause the issue) causes the trouble for both companies (based on, Lyons told us, the research they've done so far, and from Toyota's point of view): Brake fluid is bubbling and leaking out of the brake system's master cylinder, degrading the fluid (how does bubbling degrade fluid or seals, that is a sign of moisture. I've heard of seals degrading from contaminated fluid, such as when added power streering fluid to the brakes systems res), making the brake pedal feel spongy (you know that feeling) and possibly robbing stopping power from the system as a whole.

Toyota says that's probably because dealers and/or customers have been making their own "fix" and/or owners are pouring in upgraded, thicker brake fluid (Thicker brake fluid thats a new one) on their own,"


Sorry but I think Steve Parkers article is poorly written, he either didn't follow lyons or lyons did have a good handle on the issue.


Here is what Toyota is telling the Dealer, the last bullet point state it clearly:

"Wayne Hutchinson / TMS Toyota Customer Services
Product Quality and Service Support, Quality Compliance
October 21, 2010
Approved By: Bob Waltz
To: All Toyota Dealers
From: Toyota Customer Services
Safety Recall A0M – Preliminary Notice
2005 through 2006 Model Year Avalon Vehicles and
2004 through 2006 Model Year Highlander (Non Hybrid) Vehicles
Rubber Seal (Brake Master Cylinder Cup Replacement)
******URGENT******
On October 21, 2010, Toyota filed a Defect Information Report (DIR) with the National Highway Traffic Safety
Administration (NHTSA) informing the agency of our intent to conduct a voluntary Safety Recall on 2005 through
2006 Model Year Avalon Vehicles and 2004 through 2006 Model Year Highlander (Non Hybrid) Vehicles to
replace the Brake Master Cylinder Cup. This Safety Recall will also cover 2006 Lexus GS 300, IS 250, IS 350
and 2004 – 2006 Lexus RX 330.
Condition
• During vehicle assembly, Toyota uses brake fluids containing polymers that act as lubricants for certain
brake system components. If replacement brake fluid is used that does not contain such polymers, or
contain only small amounts, a part of the rubber seal (Brake Master Cylinder Cup) located at the rear of the
brake master cylinder may become dry, and the rubber seal may curl during movement of the piston. If this
occurs, a small amount of the brake fluid could slowly leak from the seal into the brake booster, resulting in
illumination of the brake warning lamp.
• If the vehicle continues to be operated in this condition, the brake pedal feel could change, and braking
performance could eventually begin to gradually degrade.
• Toyota original brake fluid which is applied at the manufacturing plant contains polymers and does not cause
this phenomenon"


Also keep in mind that shortlid said; his fluid darkened 2 months after adding aftermarket fluid, I'll bet seal(s) degrading caused the darkening.

 

[OregonLC]

Here is what Toyota is telling the Dealer, the last bullet point state it clearly:[/B]

• Toyota original brake fluid which is applied at the manufacturing plant contains polymers and does not cause this phenomenon

Well, there we go then! Is that same stuff available at the stealer? How does one positively identify it?

 

[2001LC]

Well, there we go then! Is that same stuff available at the stealer? How does one positively identify it?

Supposedly it is the same, but we have know-way to know for sure, since we don't have the composition and ingredients.

Toyota brake fluid is certainly our safest bet, unless you have need of a high temp fluid for extreme braking.

I spoke with CCI tech support, very poor phone system kept loosing contact. He is apparently Japanese and barley spoke English. I would have like to get more "color" on the Inhibitor package and differences in the glycol ester, but communication was just to difficult. I'm waiting on a email and may converse further with him through email.

Here is what I learned:

• CCI does not processes the chemicals, only mixes the acquired chemicals to client spec and bottles it.
• Toyota has not changed it's formula since they began auto production in USA (around 1990)
• This gets a little more tricky. They have different formulas in Japan then in USA, mainly do to the fact they use a different glycol ester in Japan, which is very expensive to import into USA. But the Inhibitor package is said to be the same.
• CCI Golden Cruiser brake fluid is not sold in USA only Japan according to this Tech.
• The recalled vehicles have one bad seal that reacts to aftermarket fluid only.
• Any manufactures brake fluid can be used, but not in a recalled vehicle until seal is changed.

 

[OregonLC]

Here is what I learned:

• CCI does not processes the chemicals, only mixes the acquired chemicals to client spec and bottles it.
• Toyota has not changed it's formula since they began product in USA (around 1990)
• This gets a little more tricky. They have different formulas in Japan then in USA, mainly do to they use a different glycol ester in Japan, which is to expensive to import to USA. But the Inhibitor package is said to be the same.
• CCI Golden Cruiser brake fluid is not sold in USA only Japan according to this Tech.
• The recalled vehicles have one bad seal that reacts to aftermarket fluid only.
• Any manufactures brake fluid can be used, if not in a recalled vehicle until seal is changed.

So from the last bullet, what is the latest year at which there is no risk of seal ('plunger') change? I'm thinking my 2000 LC should be good with any brand fluid unless I ever replace the MC at which point it would be hard to determine what the plunger actually is made of.

 

[jwagner]

-Maybe the raw materials available to manufacture the fluid are different or they have greater/lessor environmental controls.

-Bad seal. without a doubt.

-remember most of those vehicals probably share the same brake components. including the rav4. i would imagine the biggest consideration for a systems capability when designing the system is vehicle wieght. i doubt anything other than the 470 shares these components with the lc because it is so much larger than any other vehicle. my fluid also goes dark quickly, my though on this is not that this is sign of a degrading seal, but the fact that LC brakes leave a little to be desired. im sure they run on the hot side of brakes. surely if it went dark because the seal was being eaten away it would have gone long before 135k.
-remember if any air was introduced or the fluid was expsed to air you would have to change the fluid because of the moistier absorbtion....i think there skirting the issue.

-the real question now is this: is the new seal the same design w/ a different rubber composition? or is it a new design all together? if its only "the rear seal" it could have been caused by different fluid pressure.

 

[2001LC]

So from the last bullet, what is the latest year at which there is no risk of seal ('plunger') change? I'm thinking my 2000 LC should be good with any brand fluid unless I ever replace the MC at which point it would be hard to determine what the plunger actually is made of.

That last bullet point was referring to recalled vehecles only, which once repaired, should allow for any fluid to be usable.

Hopefully you'll not need to rebuild your brakes system. Toyota should get any bad seals, if any, out of their spare parts chain of supply. As much as I hate to say it; using Toyota Fluid, which is very pricy, is your best insurance.

-Maybe the raw materials available to manufacture the fluid are different or they have greater/lessor environmental controls.

..............

My guess; chemical processing environmental issues.

By the condition of my 10 year old factory installed brake fluid along with the Techs statement; I say the Japanese Toyota fluid is the most desirable.

Other than meeting requirements for safety, the ability to lubricate while conditioning the seals along with corrosion protection, is what I'm most concerned with in any brake fluid. I just wish we knew what the proprietary ingredient's are, so we could better shop for our needs and safety.

 

[Nottajeep]

I took my 100 in to the dealer so they could exchange brake fluid out and mainly get the fluid out of the ABS where I could not.
They used this chemical, which is a brake flush. Never heard of it.
Hoping it's compatible with the Toyota DOT 3.


BG 850M, DOT 3 Brake Fluid Ultra-Dry Flushing Formula
http://www.bgmiddleeast.com/index.php/bg/certified-2/brake-fluid-flush

 

[2001LC]

Dealer should have good handle on the TBS and what works. I do like BG produce, although I've not used this.

 

[bctlex]

I have a 98 LC with currently 214 miles. Unknown history if it is ever been flushed. I was planning to flush the brake fluid until I see this thread. Any advice what to do here? Flush it or not? If I should flush it, what fluid should I do that with?

 

[DirtDawg]

I have a 98 LC with currently 214 miles. Unknown history if it is ever been flushed. I was planning to flush the brake fluid until I see this thread. Any advice what to do here? Flush it or not? If I should flush it, what fluid should I do that with?

Others can chime in here, but I would just say go ahead and do a flush with toyota or other quality DOT 3 that meets/exceeds toyotas specs. This is an older thread and while it may ring somewhat true, this seal is not a main problem for many for what Ive seen personally. Ive flushed many toyotas (4Runner, LC, LX, sequoia) with different manufacturers DOT 3 (Toyota, amsoil, even some auto zone brands) and never developed a leak in the MC or another part of the system. Regardless, fresh fluid is going to be better than fluid with 214k on it.

 

[2001LC]

@DirtDawg is correct. The seals affected where not on the 100 series. That said unless your brake fluid has darken there is no need to flush. I'd just keep the good stuff in.

I flushed with Gunk DOT 3 heavy duty brake fluid 401 deg., 35K miles, 5 years ago with no issues at all to date. I would not have flushed then or today had I known we can't get factory. When I flushed at 130K miles, I could not tell the difference between old and new color.

Heavy use from off road or trailering can cause fluid to reach very high heat & bubble, which will break it down. Synthetic is rated for higher heat if that fits ones needs.

 

[DirtDawg]

@2001LC While a fluid may not darken over time it is good to remember that brake fluid is hygroscopic. Meaning it absorbs water over time, altering it's characteristics and potentially causing corrosion on internal parts (even though I've never witnessed this on newer vehicles). So It's just always been good practice for me to do a brake fluid flush every couple years or so. Too bad we can't run silicon DOT 5

 

[2001LC]

@2001LC While a fluid may not darken over time it is good to remember that brake fluid is hygroscopic. Meaning it absorbs water over time, altering it's characteristics and potentially causing corrosion on internal parts (even though I've never witnessed this on newer vehicles). So It's just always been good practice for me to do a brake fluid flush every couple years or so. Too bad we can't run silicon DOT 5

Good point and is the reason I flushed in first place.

FWIW once a can of brake fluid is opened discard unused portion, as it will become contaimated with moisture. Additionally, corrosion inhibitors are added to the base fluid.

My understanding is we can use DOT 3, 4 or 5.1.