TLCA event without TLCA insurance?

[Trollhole]

Hosting GSMTR 2010 again and the location we have chosen already carries insurance. Said we don't need it.

So in order to have a TLCA event do we have to pay for the insurance?

 

[TRT2]

ew, good question...

I would offer that unless that insurance specifically identifies TLCA, then it will not work. They have insurance to cover their liability, but TLCA needs to have its liability covered too. Much like the Forest Service wanting to be listed on our insurance certificates.

While not an official type TLCA reply, just sharing what I know about the named coverage.

thanks for hosting!

 

[REKCUT]

The park has insurance to cover itself but I believe you will open up a new liability when you have a TLCA sanctioned event. Someone hurt on a planned activity, guided run or other such function could also hold you, the sponsor club and TLCA liable if they were hurt. The attorneys will go where ever the money trail leads them. Its cheap coverage for what could be a very ugly situation.

My free advice

 

[65swb45]

Just what IS covered by the policy that TLCA provides is not certain. Several clubs who are on the fence about the benefits of TLCA membership have asked this question in the last year.

The question was also brought up on the BODreps e-mail list, as well as a recent conference call, but was not answered there either. I don't think anyone on the current BOD actually knows.

I offered to review the policy if someone would take the time to MAIL me a PRINT copy of the policy. To date, none has arrived in my mailbox.

My offer still stands.

Best

Mark A.

 

[tornadoalleycruiser]

Mark.. I'll dig on my old computer and see if I can find a copy an older policy. it might be a while as the monitor on that laptop doesn't work. and I cannot guarantee I have it anymore after 2 moves but I will look. the current insurance person should have a copy of that policy. If not K&K should definately have it if it's been paid up. I know i probably have older coverage letters such as rubithon, cruise moab etc which should have the verbage on it.

 

[Rzeppa]

TLCA's insurance policy is a liability policy which protects the event organizers from liability in case something happens at the event. It does not cover attendees and it does not insure vehicles. It is for liability up to one million dollars.

Now for the new question, which I have never seen come up before:

You do not need to purchase insurance through TLCA's policy to have a TLCA event. If the OHV park's policy protects the event organizers from liability, there is no need to spend the ~$270 or so that the premium costs.

 

[Trollhole]

Is TLCA considered part of the Event Organizers if they have their name on it?

 

[Rzeppa]

Is TLCA considered part of the Event Organizers if they have their name on it?

Hi Marshall, in the case of the Rubithon, yes. In the case of other events, no. The insurance covers the individuals who organize/operate the event. Thus, if Upstate puts on an event, and some folks from Georgia Cruisers help out, they'd be covered too.

 

[packman73]

TLCA's insurance policy is a liability policy which protects the event organizers from liability in case something happens at the event. It does not cover attendees and it does not insure vehicles. It is for liability up to one million dollars.

Now for the new question, which I have never seen come up before:

You do not need to purchase insurance through TLCA's policy to have a TLCA event. If the OHV park's policy protects the event organizers from liability, there is no need to spend the ~$270 or so that the premium costs.

That ain't how the by-laws/sop's read...might want to get that changed to reflect that.

 

[Trollhole]

Hi Marshall, in the case of the Rubithon, yes. In the case of other events, no. The insurance covers the individuals who organize/operate the event. Thus, if Upstate puts on an event, and some folks from Georgia Cruisers help out, they'd be covered too.

Okay don't mean to be a pain in the ass (that is what I was a couple years agao) but if TLCA is helping us organize the event by letting us advertise in a magazine isn't that being part of the event?

Do we have to list out the people it should cover? By this I mean if someone was at the event and took out some trash for us are they covered now by our insurance? What would stop someone who screwed the pooch and got someone hurt and us not saying they were covered under our insurance policy since they did some sort of medial task for us.

 

[Green Lantern]

I don't want to steal Jon Sourbeer's thunder, but let me offer a more precise answer.

Both Jeff and Art are correct, but they haven't answered the intent (as I read it) of Marshall's question.
In short, TLCA insurance is a benefit, not a requirement. Just like free advertising in Toyota Trails, you don't have to advertise, but it's available to you if you want it and your event is blessed by the BOD.

Insurance is Timm Buchanan (EVP) and he can provide a copy of TLCA's current policy. Both Erik Christiansen and Jennifer Lorincz have multiple years experience in the EVP role and I consider their opinions as expert.

Marshall's post #10 begins the inevitable "what if" dialogue. I am not an attorney and I don't play one on TV. But, I have been sued in civil court. If someone gets hurt at an event and they decide to sue, then their attorney will list the off-road park, the host club, TLCA, each officer of both the host club and TLCA, as well as anyone involved in the incident. This way the attorney has access to the greatest number of "pockets." The off-road park and TLCA require each participant to sign a waiver absolving the park and TLCA (and the host club) from liability. Cool, except the waiver can be thrown out if the attorney can show the park or TLCA is guilty of negligence. There is no magic document to prevent lawsuits or guarantee anything.

To my knowledge, no one has ever sued an event or TLCA. That's the reason we still have a policy. I went to the BOD during my tenure and changed the bylaws to clearly place safety concerns with the host club. At the time, TLCA had money and yet TLCA had no direct oversight of event safety.

Thanks for the bandwidth. TLCA insurance is cheap and gives chapter officers some cover. Most clubs run on a shoestring, TLCA is living "hand to mouth", and anyone wanting to sue you is going to need strong evidence of willful neglect. If any host club fails to act responsibly, parks will turn them away and their own members will leave.

Hope that helps,
Happy Trails! N

 

[packman73]

Well said Nick! Thanks for taking the time to post that up, much appreciated!

 

[wardfoto]

well, with that info, i'd have to say that if the event has the T.L.C.A name attached, then the insurance is in fact, a requirement. and we need to make sure that is abundantly clear for future reference.
unless the hosting club would help out with any legal fees the officers of T.L.C.A. might incur, an by help, i mean pay, then the insurance must be held as a requirement simply to protect anyone that may be named in a suit, individually, or as the collective.
my two cents, because that's about all i've got to spare....

 

[Rzeppa]

That ain't how the by-laws/sop's read...might want to get that changed to reflect that.

The bylaws do not say anything about it, and the SOPs simply say that event participants must sign the insurance waiver, however they do not specify who's insurance waiver. It could be TLCA's insurance waiver or it could be the OHV park's waiver. No need to change anything.

 

[REKCUT]

From a TLCA level, what Nick and Justin bring up are valid points. The attorneys will always go after whatever money they can link to the incident. If the event is advertised as a TLCA event, then the price is very inexpensive compared to the risk that could be attached.

That amount of money wont even get you a one hour consult with a defense attorney.

 

[tornadoalleycruiser]

Mark Algazy.. Current TLCA insurance certificate is in your tuba email mailbox PDF format. I'm sure the current BOD members were digging this out to send to you to answer your question. If there is anything else I might be able to help with please let me know. I also sent an older 2006 copy of an example of an event's insurance. The one I sent was Rubithon, it lists the forest dept etc. Whomever sets up an event would dictate the names that are listed in each events insurance.
Moab has different names depending on what trails they provide etc. I recall GSMTR had the forest service listed, sometimes certificates would need to be provided months in advance for an event to obtain a land use permit prior to the event or listing the event in the trails.

The TLCA pays for "Insurance" for the year and each event purchases a certificate to cover their event liability based on the cost of each certificate. The bulk of the cost is eaten by TLCA. If events are to not utilize the insurance then it would seem foolish for TLCA to eat the expense if it serves no purpose. I would however ask the events that do indeed need this insurance before you decide if it is something worth canceling or not requiring events to carry.

 

[Metal Spice]

If a chapter is having an event with TLCA's name associated with it anywhere, then that chapter must carry insurance to cover the TLCA & it's assigns. Now, if that event location has insurance & adds TLCA's name & the chapter's name to the "Additional Insureds" certificate, then both the chapter & the TLCA are covered under that insurance. But, good luck getting them to do that without charging you an arm & a leg to do it, IF they will do it.
This is also why we send Liability Waiver forms to each event for it's participants to sign. It protects the chapter & the TLCA. I take enough crap in the name of TLCA, I'm not willing to get sued as well & neither should any of our chapters.

 

[Rzeppa]

The bulk of the cost is eaten by TLCA.

That is correct. Our overall policy cost us $2950.00 this year, and then each certificate for each event is over and above that, for a total of $4862.00 YTD. We've collected $2342.20 so far so TLCA has paid $2519.80 (52%) over and above our cost. Even if it weren't subsidized by the mother ship, TLCA liability insurance is a HUGE benefit to chapters who have a TLCA event. When I was Commander of Rising Sun, I looked into getting similar insurance for our chapter for our club runs, and all the quotes I got were either "no bid" or more than an order of magnitude above the premiums we pay for TLCA events.

 

[Rzeppa]

If a chapter is having an event with TLCA's name associated with it anywhere, then that chapter must carry insurance to cover the TLCA & it's assigns. Now, if that event location has insurance & adds TLCA's name & the chapter's name to the "Additional Insureds" certificate, then both the chapter & the TLCA are covered under that insurance. But, good luck getting them to do that without charging you an arm & a leg to do it, IF they will do it.
This is also why we send Liability Waiver forms to each event for it's participants to sign. It protects the chapter & the TLCA. I take enough crap in the name of TLCA, I'm not willing to get sued as well & neither should any of our chapters.

The policy doesn't cover TLCA, only the event organizers for the event's sponsoring chapter. And of course, Nick's point is very true. It doesn't matter - Plaintiffs attorneys will go after everybody they possibly can.

 

[Metal Spice]

Actually, it does. That's what our annual blanket certificate does.