Thought exercise (1 Viewer)

[mr jits]

How about the TH400? I found one attached to a D300. They're said to be stock and good condition. Price is right and they seem to be upgradable if I get to that point down the road. This is dangerous, I'm getting excited...

The TH400 is the stronger transmission and can be built to deal with serious power. If it's a stock 350 vs a stock 400 the 400 is stronger.

For any auto an additional cooler is smart insurance.

What @boots4 said. If the 400 and dana 300 are inexpensive, I say jump on it. Plan to spend around $1500 to build up the 300 (It's only about $200 to rebuild the th400). If you have any plans of a doubler in the future, just know that you'd have liked the extra space a th350 would offer.
Not sure if it's in your budget mindset, but you could do a blackbox-i to the 300 with HD outputs for about the same cost of doing 4:1 gears. You'd have more gearing choices, and it only adds around 5" to the total drivetrain length.

 

[archie73]

The TH400 is the stronger transmission and can be built to deal with serious power. If it's a stock 350 vs a stock 400 the 400 is stronger.

For any auto an additional cooler is smart insurance.

This was the what I was thinking. I hadn't thought much about the cooler, but it does seem prudent.

After having both an sm420 and auto in my cruiser, I am entirely sold on having an automatic. I love my 4l60e especially for highway speeds with od. With a buggy, I would sweat drivetrain length, I could squeeze a doubler in mine and it's full bodied, but my rear ds would be rather short.

This would be a stretched wheelbase, so drivetrain length likely deciding factor on the final axle location. With this being a hacked 40/truggy already, I have a fairly wide area to choose from for axle placement. They have removed the frame from the behind the torque tube back and from the cowl forward. This means leafs are out the question and its going to be linked.
Currently, I wasn't considering any doublers. I fluctuate between simplicity and possible desires. I'm a big fan of OEM(domestic) parts availability, this comes at a price of durability sometimes. This thought has me leaning away from doublers.

 

[archie73]

What @boots4 said. If the 400 and dana 300 are inexpensive, I say jump on it. Plan to spend around $1500 to build up the 300 (It's only about $200 to rebuild the th400). If you have any plans of a doubler in the future, just know that you'd have liked the extra space a th350 would offer.

Thanks for the confirming my thoughts. Its all one piece which is also appetizing- no additional adapters. If budget demands(as it likely would), do peeps think the D300 will hold up in stock form? Down the road I could absolutely see upgrading to lower gears and shafts, but immediately speaking- it might need to work stock.

Not sure if it's in your budget mindset, but you could do a blackbox-i to the 300 with HD outputs for about the same cost of doing 4:1 gears. You'd have more gearing choices, and it only adds around 5" to the total drivetrain length.

Blackbox-i $1500- Ouch. Since I was thinking this was mostly a crawl rig, 4 sets of gears seems overkill. I dont expect to do any prolonged highway speeds with 40" tires( I know people do it, just not for this thought exercise). I was thinking of going deeper at the axle. This gets into budget and drivetrain length. It begs the question tho, is the TH400 is not a desireble transmission due to length?

 

[archie73]

The reason for this thread is for me (and others) to avoid pitfalls when trying to build something without a massive budget. This forum is full of people more skilled and/or deeper pocketed than me, I love reading about their builds. I'd like to believe this is still a hobby that's within reach of a moderate income and family life. I do realize that parts and time aren't free, so I try and keep parts to things I can find at Napa or the junkyard. . Thanks to everyone weighing in so far, lets keep it going.

 

[mr jits]

Thanks for the confirming my thoughts. Its all one piece which is also appetizing- no additional adapters. If budget demands(as it likely would), do peeps think the D300 will hold up in stock form? Down the road I could absolutely see upgrading to lower gears and shafts, but immediately speaking- it might need to work stock.


Blackbox-i $1500- Ouch. Since I was thinking this was mostly a crawl rig, 4 sets of gears seems overkill. I dont expect to do any prolonged highway speeds with 40" tires( I know people due it, just not for this thought exercise). I was thinking of going deeper at the axle. This gets into budget and drivetrain length. It begs the question tho, is the TH400 is not a desireble transmission due to length?

The D300 is a good case with a solid stock gearing, but the outputs are in need of immediate upgrades (you will break them behind a healthy V8). I wouldn't worry at all about the length of a TH400 with a single case (most of the ultra 4 cars are TH400/4l80 with an atlas). I would absolutely invest in the 4:1 lomax kit and HD outputs as soon as you can though.

 

[archie73]

Alright that seems the TH400/Dana 300 are acceptable to the crowd. We did skip over the engine compartment though. As I mentioned, I have a 5.3 LS on a stand and a SBC 350 in my dual purpose 40. One of these engines would be the powerplant for the truggy. Nothing lives without conditions however:
Dual purpose 40

set up​

• Healthy 350(nothing fancy but fresh and strong enough) and quadrajet(I like it)
• SM465/Orion -until recently, everything I needed
• Stock axles with ARB(Rear) and 35's, 4"-SR and SUA

What I mean by dual purpose​

1. This thing sees mostly highway use, but can get around the rocks as well. It has a back seat, which is important for my kid.
2. We live at 6000', so to say we have a short summer is safe. We make the most of driving it, but its a short season(max 5K miles a year).
3. The SBC will happily take us over the pass(8000'), but it could be faster. I bought the LS with this in mind.
4. Offroad the carb never gives me trouble, at least so far... I have pointed it at the sky and it just works.
5. The LS would be pretty sweet in there.

I realize the truggy could benefit from the LS advantages, but I'm leaning toward the current 40 getting the newer engine. It'd be nice to have the simpler engine on the rougher trails for trail fixes. In addition, I think the highway use will make better use of the power band. The only thing that is giving me hesitation is off angles that I'm not currently trying to achieve and places I'd like visit with the Truggy.

 

[Sputnik40]

Subscribed. Have something similar to the buggy in your first post, but it's running and semi-reliable (Downey injected 2F, SM420, Orion HD with 32 spline outputs and speed sensor pick up, sitting at around 107" wb). Having added two boys to the family recently, time and funds are in short supply - so totally get the budget angle. Have been wanting to go LS, auto, and Atlas, along with a linked Dana 60 up front. Not going to happen anytime soon as I don't want it sitting around in pieces while I struggle to budget time and funds

Especially interested in the TH 400 discussion. End of the day would like to be able to use the v8 on occasion versus nursing stuff....

 

[archie73]

Here is a speculative cost of parts. I'll have to source as much used as I can and the rest is lazy internet shopping for prices. Luckily a weekend in SLC can yield a good amount of classified finds.

Chassis	1000
Engine 350 Gen 1	Got it
Transmission TH400	400
Transfer case Dana 300	250
Rebuild kit, 4:1 gears and shafts	1725
Driveshaft Used and Modified	300
Axle front- Dana 60	450
Spoil	275
Gears 5.13	235
Truss for Linking	100
Axle rear	450
Locker Detroit	800
Gears 5.13	235
Truss for Linking	100
Tire/wheels based on used classifieds prices	1400
Suspension
Links based on RuffStuff website	1300
Coil over Just a guess	2000
Brake booster used	50
Brake booster used	50
Steering
Wheel&Column Junk Yard	50
Ram/valve kit- Best estimate	1500
Pump	165
Seats-Used	100
Harnesses- Used	200
Total	13135

What am I missing? A bunch of stuff, probably-I've never tried to build anything from scratch before. Some of the big stuff will have to wait for deals to surface. Sorry if this seems mundane, but for me its part of the process.

 

[archie73]

Subscribed. Have something similar to the buggy in your first post, but it's running and semi-reliable (Downey injected 2F, SM420, Orion HD with 32 spline outputs and speed sensor pick up, sitting at around 107" wb). Having added two boys to the family recently, time and funds are in short supply - so totally get the budget angle. Have been wanting to go LS, auto, and Atlas, along with a linked Dana 60 up front. Not going to happen anytime soon as I don't want it sitting around in pieces while I struggle to budget time and funds

Especially interested in the TH 400 discussion. End of the day would like to be able to use the v8 on occasion versus nursing stuff....

What lessons do you have from your initial build? I get the reasoning for the Atlas, this D300 is costing around $2000 after upgrades- I may have been swayed that way after seeing the spreadsheet. Maybe if I buy the combo and sell the D300 for a fair price I can come out even, maybe...

EDIT-
So I just double checked the AA site and the Atlas would be around $3000, so even if I made a profit on the D300 I'd still be in the hole $5-700. Not a bad price for piece of mind, but costly none the less...

 

[Cruiserdrew]

Where are you going to find a front D60 kingpin axle for $450? More like $1500!

But you can save on the rear with a Chevy 14 bolt. And they can often be found with a detroit already installed off a CUCV. Then you'll need the disc brake conversion parts.

Paint and other cosmetics $$$$

Good luck. I see many garage hours in your future!

 

[archie73]

Where are you going to find a front D60 kingpin axle for $450? More like $1500!

But you can save on the rear with a Chevy 14 bolt. And they can often be found with a detroit already installed off a CUCV. Then you'll need the disc brake conversion parts.

There were a pair of listed locally for $900. I haven't researched which exact D60 to get, so I'm not sure if these are the one to buy. They are claimed to be Dodge 3.51(?) Kingpin and they are passenger drops. This was a deal I take it? (This is the reason I started the thread).

Paint and other cosmetics $$$$

"Paint? we don't need no stickin' paint where we're going."
Seriously though, cosmetics are very, very low on the list of priorities. I've already considered that I'll be swapping a few remaining pieces of this rig for rusted/dented pieces on the current rig. Think frankencruiser, there wont be much Toyota left anyway.

Good luck. I see many garage hours in your future!

Yes, the accumulation and build will take many moons I imagine. The upside is I enjoy the planning and execution.

 

[Cruiserdrew]

It does seem like a decent deal if it is as claimed. Some feel the Dodge version is desirable because there is less stick out to the Passenger side. It's otherwise basically identical to the Chevy version. Usually in these situations, the front axle has all the value.

 

[Sputnik40]

Have plenty of lessons learned, mainly that my build was a progression over time that resulted from wanting to keep up with others and/or upgrades after carnage resulting from keeping up with others, versus having a clear vision of where I wanted to be - and skipping to the end (at least you're skipping that mistake). Granted, I didn't anticipate adding two more boys to the family, changing the direction on my last upgrade, which included a fully caged rear so I could fit a fully harnessed rear seat for the two kids.

That said - for what you're envisioning, would almost recommend starting off with a tube chassis/full buggy. Trying to work from the Cruiser frame and safeguard a cowl/front clip that will likely get tweaked when trying to thread thru narrow crevices, much less a few flops/rolls, is an exercise in frustration. What I have and what you're looking to do - is 10 years behind the curve - and while plenty capable, often times can't do what cheaper/lighter formula Toy buggies or other similar stuff can do.

Otherwise, think the best mod was going to a shaved 14 bolt with Detroit and disks.

All that said, love FJ40 buggies, so hoping you resurrect the project from the first post...better grab it before someone else does.

What lessons do you have from your initial build? I get the reasoning for the Atlas, this D300 is costing around $2000 after upgrades- I may have been swayed that way after seeing the spreadsheet. Maybe if I buy the combo and sell the D300 for a fair price I can come out even, maybe...

EDIT-
So I just double checked the AA site and the Atlas would be around $3000, so even if I made a profit on the D300 I'd still be in the hole $5-700. Not a bad price for piece of mind, but costly none the less...

 

[Sputnik40]

Here's one I saw just outside if Colorado into Utah last year, it ticked off all the items you have listed in your build sheet.

 

[mr jits]

There were a pair of listed locally for $900. I haven't researched which exact D60 to get, so I'm not sure if these are the one to buy. They are claimed to be Dodge 3.51(?) Kingpin and they are passenger drops. This was a deal I take it? (This is the reason I started the thread).


"Paint? we don't need no stickin' paint where we're going."
Seriously though, cosmetics are very, very low on the list of priorities. I've already considered that I'll be swapping a few remaining pieces of this rig for rusted/dented pieces on the current rig. Think frankencruiser, there wont be much Toyota left anyway.


Yes, the accumulation and build will take many moons I imagine. The upside is I enjoy the planning and execution.

If the gearing is that low (high) on the dodge axles, the front is likely a Dana 61, which from experience creates it's own set of issues when regearing. Make sure you go Dana 70 gears in the front while you're in there. Rear should be a dana 70, but again, go Dana 70 gears in the rear if it's a 60.

 

[archie73]

Here's one I saw just outside if Colorado into Utah last year, it ticked off all the items you have listed in your build sheet.

View attachment 2111965

View attachment 2111969

I don’t remember saying I wanted it to be red!!! Looks sweet.
I kinda figured with this starting point of a hacked up forty, I wouldn’t have to worry to much about body damage. If the hood and bib are good shape I’d be swapping them for my current dented hood(forgot to latch it on interstate) and rusted bib. But maybe you’re right, I’ll look into a buggy chassis. I think it’d have to be in the same price range for this project to work. I’d assumed all the tube Chassis would be in the 5k and up price range.

Have plenty of lessons learned, mainly that my build was a progression over time that resulted from wanting to keep up with others and/or upgrades after carnage resulting from keeping up with others, versus having a clear vision of where I wanted to be - and skipping to the end (at least you're skipping that mistake). Granted, I didn't anticipate adding two more boys to the family, changing the direction on my last upgrade, which included a fully caged rear so I could fit a fully harnessed rear seat for the two kids.

Interesting you say this about expanding for family. Currently, my 8 yr old wants nothing to do with 4wheeling. It scares him and he has no control. Initially, my lust for this chassis blinded me to the short coming of the back seat. Now I wonder if this particular setup will be to small when eventually he wants to ride along. I’d like him to be there one day. Without seeing it in person, it’s hard to see how I could safely fit another seat in this thing. But I’m not giving up hope yet.
As far as learning over time, I see these type of builds as always progressing(and sucking money). I know I have a lot to learn and I’ll make some bad choices that have to be redone. None of my current friends have anything this built, so at least I’d be in the lead for a while...

 

[archie73]

If the gearing is that low (high) on the dodge axles, the front is likely a Dana 61, which from experience creates it's own set of issues when regearing. Make sure you go Dana 70 gears in the front while you're in there. Rear should be a dana 70, but again, go Dana 70 gears in the rear if it's a 60.

Double checked, the gears are 3.54 and rear is Dana 70. If it’s a 61, pirate says I would need a spacer to run a 60 r&p, any other issues? I Sumer I could run a 60 locker then as well? I’ll research the 70...

 

[mr jits]

Double checked, the gears are 3.54 and rear is Dana 70. If it’s a 61, pirate says I would need a spacer to run a 60 r&p, any other issues? I Sumer I could run a 60 locker then as well? I’ll research the 70...

The detroit is still available for the dana 61, so you also have the option of the detroit with thick cut gears (no spacer). Swap the side gears with the 35 spline ones for the larger chromoly axles. Ignore swapping side gears. I'd forgotten you were keeping this in the budget realm. Reuse your current carrier, thick cut gears, 35 spline lockrite.

 

[Tank5]

Just buy it. You can figure the details out later.

 

[archie73]

The detroit is still available for the dana 61, so you also have the option of the detroit with thick cut gears (no spacer). Swap the side gears with the 35 spline ones for the larger chromoly axles. Ignore swapping side gears. I'd forgotten you were keeping this in the budget realm. Reuse your current carrier, thick cut gears, 35 spline lockrite.

So what you’re telling me is I have a chance? I’ve never setup a diff, but I’d have to learn in order to keep under any sort of budget. I have a friend who knows how, it’s just a matter of getting him to have time. I’d probably hold out for ‘60’ axle and save a bunch of time.