This Jobsite (Project) Sucks Vent Thread

[Delancy]

To avoid further thread jacking of PAToyota's Workshop Extension thread, starting new.

Sure there's many here, "in the business", so cuss the jobsite your on, been on, walked away from, whatever floats your boat, without fear of being off topic, because there is no off topic here.

 

[Delancy]

I'll start. Chat's dead and 40 mph wind gusts have me sitting in the truck, anyway.

Morphed project, one of which I typically would have no involvement in, but the GC is a very good account and didn't want to send looking.
Don't typically roof others structures, since inconsistencies in quality abound, and all metal roofing shows every minor error.

Began simple, but after architectural (Sorry, PAToyota) morphed into a cut up POS.

56' long panel runs, with only a handful of panels not necessitating cuts at both ridge and eave, panel lengths the longest I've handled.

9,100 sf of panel, but 8,918 sf of surface. Using 24Ga Architectural panel and still having issues with the 1/2"-3/4" variations in substrate in 27' runs.





Day two





















It's hard to polish a turd.

No truer that in construction, where each trade is dependent on the previous to be accurate.....which never happens at this level. Why houses are, typically, not right.

Typically handle from foundation to drying in with steel, not this, which is the number one reason for suckage.

Jobsite is 1/8 mile from paved road and a heavy dew renders access impassable and not conducive for profitability ( which has been ever elusive the last few years, anyway ), plus daily inspections from the Corp of Engineers, each one with an ego that exceeds their level of experience, to which all you can do is I flare further, to minimize potential issues.

40mph gusts on top of a hill, to top it off.

Trying to move 56' long bundles of high dollar material is even challenging.

 

[PAToyota]

I feel your pain. Having come from a background in construction and engineering, I am always at a loss about my fellow architects who have no idea how the materials they are choosing actually work. Anything that they can draw a picture or diagram of on a piece of paper should be able to be constructed in the field just as easily - right?

As for crazy roof structures, the big thing around here in the residential housing market are these "McMansions" with thirty different roof slopes, peaks, valleys, dormers, and everything else under the sun - nearly all of it just cosmetic and housing an unused attic space that is half to two-thirds as big as the house itself. Makes the house look real grand and all, but the owners are likely going to have a heart attack when they get the estimates to reroof it in ten to fifteen years because the contractor saved money by using the cheapest shingles out there. And even if he used the "good" shingles, that is only going to prolong the inevitable...

 

[Delancy]

Anything that they can draw a picture or diagram of on a piece of paper should be able to be constructed in the field just as easily - right?

Haha. Can't count how many times I've heard "Well, it worked on paper."

What's frustrating in the pre-engineered steel industry is how dependent detailers are on software and how irrelevant software is on complex structures......complex defined as more than a basic box.

Have seen several errors that were blamed on the software, blamed by the people who are paid to find those errors, but whose paycheck a are unaffected when they err.

As for crazy roof structures, the big thing around here in the residential housing market...

See the same phenomena on residential-ish here, more frustrating, the smaller medical/office space that are impossible to do, within budget constraints, pre-engineered steel, or even metal roofing, due to the inherent limitations of both.

During the hay day of the residential bubble, anyone that could borrow money became a home builder here, since contracting is an unlicensed trade. Knew of four that were full time employees at American Airlines, all conducting business in one small bedroom community of Tulsa, so flooded the market with house rat subcontractors.

Since the decline of residential in the +250k properties, a lot of the developers and contractors moved into the medical/office field and brought the lower cost residential subs with them, so very hard to compete when legitimately insured and staffed with experienced crew.

Oddly enough, during a pow wow (no pun intended, but this is a tribal complex senior living facility) with the powers that be, the principles expressed concern over oil canning, a possibility with any standing seam roof panel, and questioned the panel profile selected. For whatever reason, it was instantly determined "my department" and no one was happy to hear me say "there's one guarantee, it will can".

 

[Delancy]

The processes of some GCs perplexes me.

Stop at nothing to get as much in the air as possible with complete disregard for job site workability, or integrity during duration.

1/2" of rain and building floods, no access for subs.





78 degrees yesterday 30mpg gusts, so productivity was, well, non-existent.



51 the high today, at 5am. 30mph north winds brought 40 degree temps, now, freeze tonight.

 

[45Kevin]

Do you guys have an experience with BIM.

If so, please share.

As an architectural millworker, we have yet to use it, but I know it is coming.

We bid on a university project a month ago that required the winning sub to use it.

 

[PAToyota]

I've seen some places using BIM that understand it - and a lot of places trying to use it and failing horribly.

The places that are using it well (one particular structural engineer comes to mind) understand that you have to get all your ducks in a row to use it. There is a certain amount of setup work you have to do before you start drafting. The ones that are failing are trying to make it up as you go along.

It is similar to the transition from board drafting to CAD twenty years ago. There were people who were trying to do board drafting on CAD - single layer, not really using blocks/components, changing the text of dimensions rather than redrawing things properly. For the latter as an example, it took awhile to convince them that redrawing it actually made it easier because then the computer figured out all the associated dimensions.

BIM is the same way. If you're trying to use it like regular CAD and not putting the time in to enter the actual information, you're wasting your time. But I see a lot of people who want to be able to say "we're using BIM!" and don't have the slightest clue what that means...

On a related note, I know a guy who "computerized" his office way back when (I mean really waaay back when). He was really proud that he had spreadsheets for this and that and the other thing. Except that his spreadsheets had no formulas... He'd do all the calculations by hand (well, actually his assistant did everything by hand) and then would enter all the results into the nice neat fancy spreadsheet... BIM is the same way. If you're just using the fancy software without having the "formulas" behind it, you're missing the point.

 

[cody c]

As an electrician in the oil and gas industry, we are usually the last one on the site/building/skid/module.

Structural, sheet metal, piping/mechanical and instrumentation has to be in place before we can start.
Every other trade knows the "finish" date, the other trades and the client know that, but they push it all close to the deadline and then think we will be fine to wrap it up when our start date has been pushed 70% through our window of work time, and the client still expects it to be ready on time. Waukesha gas compressor buildings and separator buildings I used to see that all the time. They'd let you know friday at lunch they wanted the thing done and ready to ship for tuesday morning. Guess we need you to work OT on the weekend.. Again. Bust your balls all weekend then the darn thing would sit in the yard for another month or three.

I like doind desing/drafting these days. Haven't worked on a saturday for probably over a year!

 

[PAToyota]

During the hay day of the residential bubble, anyone that could borrow money became a home builder here, since contracting is an unlicensed trade. Knew of four that were full time employees at American Airlines, all conducting business in one small bedroom community of Tulsa, so flooded the market with house rat subcontractors.

As an architect, I see the HGTV and DIY shows where you have a lot of "licensed contractors" and "designers" being touted about.

In Pennsylvania, they did implement a "registered contractor" program. You have to register with the attorney general's office - basically pay a $50 annual fee, no exam, no experience requirement, no bonding, etc... Just register. Then, if enough people complain about XYZ Contractor they at least have a starting point to track him down.

But the other things about the shows are that you see very, very little about design, codes, permits, and such. You might get a brief view of a colorful plan at the start but then the general routine is "but enough with that, let's get to work!" It is really unfortunate because it gives the public the perception that you "just get to work" and not that you should work out a plan ahead of time.

I had a project last year where the owner knew exactly what he wanted and wanted to get under construction as soon as possible. It took awhile to get through to him that we needed to finish the plans to get them approved for the permit - and that once they were approved that any further changes would have to be resubmitted. By the end, he went through three major revisions to the plans (nearly to the point of starting over from scratch) and then four substantial revisions to the final design. Then he couldn't understand the additional costs (ummm... I gave you a price to design ONE building, not three different buildings and four variations of the third building...).

 

[Delancy]

If you're just using the fancy software without having the "formulas" behind it, you're missing the point.

I still do self storage facilities by hand, having attempted my own and other software versions, as ridiculous as that may sound, considering the simplicity of the structure.

No fancy software has proven accurate enough to warrant the premium.

Bust your balls all weekend then the darn thing would sit in the yard for another month or three.

Sounds familiar and dealing with similar on a project, again a GC'd job (larger percentage of work I do is contracted with principal/owner).

Deadlines for delivery stipulated as 4/1 with penalties.

Deadlines to start 4/1 with penalties.

Deadlines for various stages of completion, 100% at 4/21.

I knew going into it that they'd be lucky to have permit by 5/1, so had no issue with contract as drafted, except the inclusion that if they weren't ready 4/1, then we'd get to it in order with other jobs, unless paying $1,200 a day stationary fee, which they declined.

Today's 4/23. Site work still incomplete, permit a month a way, and they're complaining about the high cost of change orders on a PRE-engineered structure that's sitting on the ground and has been since 3/29.

 

[Delancy]

XYZ Contractor

In OK, if not maintaining "employees" then circumventing work comp is relatively easy, a huge portion cost that residential has flown under radar from incurring, same with GL.

Pseudo-builders pull loans and Builder's Risk to satisfy lender about the extent, most educated from the DIY channels, the only oversight being code enforcement officials......hahaha, using one of four plans in a single development, includes in lot price, with slight exterior differences.

Subpar even on a residential scale.

I wish they'd license all trades, at the very least, for insurance verification.

We're held to a higher standard due to corporate status, being an employer, constant oversight from insurers of our subcontractors insured status, or lack thereof ( which we'd have to pay for).

 

[Delancy]

More fail, but from a trade (my) standpoint.

Not much thought is given to panel module on SSR roof systems, unless we are connsulted during the initial design, or design staff had experience with SSR projects.

Due to typical framing practices and quality, that aren't conducive for a fair entry metal roof project, we've had to make adjustments and sacrifices along the way.

Nothing says "inexperienced, crap roofer" to me than the panel highs at peaks, hips, and valleys not lining up, since, as professionals, we adjust the layout to achieve.

This thing is so out of square, and forced with a hard start at a parapet wall, there was no choice.





Eating me up. Probably never noticed by the vast majority, but can't stand it.

Outside of OK spring weather beginning to gnaw at profitability, have been successful with the +50' panel runs, which thankful for.





Can tell by the pics my long time, " southern" workers don't care for any temps below 50. I can be in a t shirt and they're bundled for snow.

 

[90FJ]

Are they going to flash the windows?

 

[Delancy]

Are they going to flash the windows?

Inevitably, but not in my scope of the project.

I don't know the exterior wall finish, but it had better be impermeable, because we do have the occasional winter storm that will create a build up against the windowed wall. I've seen commercial glazing and EIFS fail on a project with similar elevation changes and the glazing was 30" above the lower roof deck, so these need special treatment.....but probably won't see until after leaks occur.

Oddly, the window and door quality is more mid level residential, not commercial, which is surprising.

It's Monday and I despise.

First call of the day, the GC saying that plumber was irate that we cut all the vent pipes, when I explained long before startling roof NOT to penetrate before roof complete, and every day I've spoken to GC, that it requires 5" off of panel high to flash, and that we were having to cut some that weren't, for the sake of roof integrity.

Even had a conference call with GC and plumber last week, reading. Guess they forgot.

 

[PAToyota]

Oddly, the window and door quality is more mid level residential, not commercial, which is surprising.

Doesn't surprise me at all. I constantly see "value engineering" where cheaper products are substituted to "save money." By the time it becomes an issue, the contractor is going to be long gone. Five years down the road the owner is finding that things only had a five year warranty and he's already replacing things that should have had a twenty year lifespan.

Material change orders are a way of life - always have been. "Can I use xxx instead of the yyy that you specified?" But lately I've really had to tighten down my specifications and put the burden of proof on the contractor for showing that it is actually a comparable equal product.

Contractor: "I've always used xxx instead of the yyy that you specified. Using it will save us $$$$. They're exactly the same."

Then I'd have to go through, read the product descriptions, testing reports, warranties, and so forth and after spending half a day determine that it was nowhere near what I specified - no wonder it was so much cheaper - which I had assumed from the start but had to prove to the owner - and, of course, the owner didn't want to pay me any extra for doing so.

So now my specs state that the contractor has to submit the information - that the warranty is the same, that it passes the same product testing, and so forth.

 

[Delancy]

Through the years, especially in the downturn, we've witnessed "value engineering" in pre-engineered steel as the norm for larger producers.

When work was slim, I subbed erection only from a few different local companies, and their choice in building manufacturers was based 100% on price, and it showed.

One in particular was 100' span and required two lifts, both with 25' spreader bars, and it was still nerve racking. Roof would deflect under the walking weight of one guy enough that it could be felt on the opposite corner. Kind if queasy feeling.

May stand for 100 years, whose to say, but it was a PITA to erect, due to allowed load reductions and changes in other loading criteria.

 

[PAToyota]

The thing I've seen is the influx of the Project Management firms - stick another level of management in between the contractors, architect, and owner.

They justify their existence by saving the owner money - but really they just end up cheapening the project. How do you justify spending an additional 10% (or more) on the cost of a Project Manager unless you are "saving" 20% on the cost of construction? And to take that much out of a project, you're talking some pretty deep reductions in things. You really aren't going to get "value" when you're looking to pull that much out of a budget.

 

[Delancy]

Agreed on value, but that's the last consideration of construction, it seems, in today's environment.

Sometime I feel like we're doing a major disservice to the landscape, building these projects that, structurally, could last a 100 years, or more, yet look like chit five years in.

Get this.

81 degrees last night at 8.

Now.....






This is the reason why, if and when we get on a job that's problem free and completed in record time, I feel it's justified, since the majority of the time, the unknown, uncontrollable variable of weather can suck the money right out of our pockets.

Almost done with roof. Battling wind the last three days, plus two sections of the roof were so far out of square, I spent way too much time trying to layout the panels to compensate, to avoid a jagged eave edge. Cost a day, at least, but it's right....... once the tapered transition trim arrives.

 

[PAToyota]

Sometime I feel like we're doing a major disservice to the landscape, building these projects that, structurally, could last a 100 years, or more, yet look like chit five years in.

Certainly a big frustration for me. Our society hardly looks a year down the road, much less five, ten, twenty, or one-hundred years...

It particularly frustrates me with public projects - schools, public offices, municipal buildings, and such. Often, the budget for construction and operating costs are from entirely different pools. Sam is in charge of the construction project and has $$$$. Joe is responsible for maintenance once the building is built and has an annual budget of $$$. Sam is cutting corners because he has to build the building for $$$$. Joe isn't going to give up any of his budget to supplement Sam's construction. But that means that maintenance and operating costs for the building are double what they would have been if some of Joe's budget had been spent up front on efficient HVAC systems, metal roof instead of shingles, etc. And this is our tax dollars we're talking about - we're creating money pits that are going to be sucking the money down for years to come.

And back to the whole HGTV/DIY stuff - everything is about doing something in an afternoon, weekend, whatever. Again, having it "quick" is going to mean more work in the long run. I routinely see paint without primer, working over wet concrete the next day, material selections that I doubt are going to last a few months... I remember one episode where they were gluing burlap to bare concrete basement walls. I'd like to see the mold culture that created in a couple months...

 

[agomez]

holy s*** that building was designed for the night time....