Thinking about opening it up...15B v. 1HZ

[Volcano cruiser]

Guys I have been searching for a 15B to swap into my 40 for about 9 months now and still no luck in sourcing one. While I have not given up on the 15B I have begun to open up my search and look at the H engines and in particular the 1HZ. Both are still in production. The 15B is direct inject, the 1HZ is indirect inject. Both are roughly the same HP in the un-turboed, un-intercooled state. (I would plan on turbo and intercool either engine) The 15B is 4 cylinders, 16 valves, the 1HZ is 6 cyclinders 12 valves. There is a big difference in torque, the 15B has 288ft-lbs of torque as compared to the 1HZ's 187. I don't have fuel consumption numbers for the 15B but folks seem to consistently report 16-20mpg city and 25-27 mpg on highway for the 1HZ.
My application is mixed use DD/ medium duty offroader and overland tourer. While in Central Amerioca it will lean more off road and overland touring. Once back in the U.S. there will be a clear need for U.S. highway actual cruising speeds, 75-80mph in addition to overland off road touring.
I'm soliciting Mud views comparing the two engines, pros and cons that I missed. I'm really curious in people's experience in swapping either into a 40, fuel consumption numbers, maintainance issues and any known problems. I will note that I did look at the another H engine, the 1HD-T and have shyed away from it as I have read many posts here bemoaning problems with the 1HD-T but very very few doing anything but praising the the 1HZ. Last, As I am trying to source either engine what are the prices that folks are seeing new and prices used. What vehicles did the 1HZ come in from the factory, eg the 15b came factory in the Megacruiser, Dyna trucks and Coaster buses. What about the 1HZ.
Thanks,
John

 

[Dougal]

The torque figures you've got for the 15B (288ft-lb = 390Nm) are for a turbo version.
You can't get that much torque from a naturally aspirated diesel of that size.

As for the fuel economy, you're aware that those quoted figures are both English MPG (20% bigger than US MPG) and on the high side of what you're likely to get.

The direct injection engines will use up to 20% less fuel than the 1HZ. Hence the reason for indirect injection engines going the way of the dodo.
In the 100/105 series the direct injection 1HD-FTE with fulltime 4wd had over 10% better fuel economy than the indirect injection 1HZ powered 105 with part time 4wd.

 

[Tapage]

Wou .. the 1HD-T would be my best shot .. but at least down here in Panamá are not an easy engine to found ..

1HZ too .. but are much more easy than 15B ..

Anycase I would prefeer a 1HZ dou 2 more cilinders and less noisy engine compared to the 15B both awesome engines at all ..

And for economy that I don't really care much .. I can get 34km/g from my IDI turboed 2H-TI pretty loaded and running 37"

 

[roscoFJ73]

Guys I have been searching for a 15B to swap into my 40 for about 9 months now and still no luck in sourcing one. While I have not given up on the 15B I have begun to open up my search and look at the H engines and in particular the 1HZ. Both are still in production. The 15B is direct inject, the 1HZ is indirect inject. Both are roughly the same HP in the un-turboed, un-intercooled state. (I would plan on turbo and intercool either engine) The 15B is 4 cylinders, 16 valves, the 1HZ is 6 cyclinders 12 valves. There is a big difference in torque, the 15B has 288ft-lbs of torque as compared to the 1HZ's 187. I don't have fuel consumption numbers for the 15B but folks seem to consistently report 16-20mpg city and 25-27 mpg on highway for the 1HZ.
My application is mixed use DD/ medium duty offroader and overland tourer. While in Central Amerioca it will lean more off road and overland touring. Once back in the U.S. there will be a clear need for U.S. highway actual cruising speeds, 75-80mph in addition to overland off road touring.
I'm soliciting Mud views comparing the two engines, pros and cons that I missed. I'm really curious in people's experience in swapping either into a 40, fuel consumption numbers, maintainance issues and any known problems. I will note that I did look at the another H engine, the 1HD-T and have shyed away from it as I have read many posts here bemoaning problems with the 1HD-T but very very few doing anything but praising the the 1HZ. Last, As I am trying to source either engine what are the prices that folks are seeing new and prices used. What vehicles did the 1HZ come in from the factory, eg the 15b came factory in the Megacruiser, Dyna trucks and Coaster buses. What about the 1HZ.
Thanks,
John

I have 2 1HZ powered cruisers and both of them get about 12-13litre/100klms which is less economy than what you have been quoted.
Neither of these engines is capable of cruising at US highway speeds of 75-80mph. They will do it but they will be over revving unless you do something to the drive ratios.
They are happy at about 65-70 with 4.11 diff ratio
The only problem the 1HD T has is the BEB which can be checked and fixed before disaster.

The 1HZ/1HD T only came in Coaster and Landcruiser.
Yanmar uses 1HD FTE as marine engines

The Megacruiser used a 15B FTE.
Current model Coasters use a 15B FTE as the 1HZ and 1HD FTE could no longer meet emission standards.

 

[Volcano cruiser]

Thanks for the responses and everyone's experience.

The torque figures you've got for the 15B (288ft-lb = 390Nm) are for a turbo version.
You can't get that much torque from a naturally aspirated diesel of that size.

As for the fuel economy, you're aware that those quoted figures are both English MPG (20% bigger than US MPG) and on the high side of what you're likely to get.

The direct injection engines will use up to 20% less fuel than the 1HZ. Hence the reason for indirect injection engines going the way of the dodo.
In the 100/105 series the direct injection 1HD-FTE with fulltime 4wd had over 10% better fuel economy than the indirect injection 1HZ powered 105 with part time 4wd.

Therefore, 15B will have more torque and be less thirsty than the 1HZ. Has anyone had experience with the 1HZ turboed re: fuel consumption and torque figures?

Wou .. the 1HD-T would be my best shot .. but at least down here in Panamá are not an easy engine to found ..

1HZ too .. but are much more easy than 15B ..

Anycase I would prefeer a 1HZ dou 2 more cilinders and less noisy engine compared to the 15B both awesome engines at all ..

And for economy that I don't really care much .. I can get 34km/g from my IDI turboed 2H-TI pretty loaded and running 37"

Yeah, that is what I'm finding, the 15B is just really hard to find in Central America notwithstanding the fact that they are used in the newer Coaster buses. I guess not many of those buses have wrecked yet. Crushers also mentioned in his 1HZ into a 40 write up that the 1HZ was a quieter running engine.

I have 2 1HZ powered cruisers and both of them get about 12-13litre/100klms which is less economy than what you have been quoted.
Neither of these engines is capable of cruising at US highway speeds of 75-80mph. They will do it but they will be over revving unless you do something to the drive ratios.
They are happy at about 65-70 with 4.11 diff ratio
The only problem the 1HD T has is the BEB which can be checked and fixed before disaster.

The 1HZ/1HD T only came in Coaster and Landcruiser.
Yanmar uses 1HD FTE as marine engines

The Megacruiser used a 15B FTE.
Current model Coasters use a 15B FTE as the 1HZ and 1HD FTE could no longer meet emission standards.

Got the fuel consumption point. Again I wonder how the 1HZ's torque and fuel consumption would be affected by it being turboed and intercooled...

I'd love to hear from Crushers and a couple of the 15B guys from over in Asia on this. Thanks again, I never thought that sourcing a 15B would be so hard so this is very helpful in exploring my alternatives.
John

 

[Dougal]

Therefore, 15B will have more torque and be less thirsty than the 1HZ. Has anyone had experience with the 1HZ turboed re: fuel consumption and torque figures?

I wouldn't expect the fuel consumption of the 1HZ to be affected much by turbocharging it. Unless you can up the gearing to take advantage of the extra torque, that will save you some by dropping the revs. The 15BT will use less because it's direct injection and because it has two less cylinders (less internal friction).
The 1HZ is quiet, but the 14B engines I've driven were similarly quiet, far removed from the older B series. I don't think I've heard a 15BT engine up close.

Have you also looked for 13BT and 14BT motors?

 

[Volcano cruiser]

Yes, although oddly where I'm located the 13B is also tough to find. I say odd because it came as the factory diesel option with the 70 series, very popular in Latin America. I have looked at the 14B and it can be found here if you look hard. I was looking at the 14B as an alternative but with 8 fewer valves and lesser torque numbers than the 15 and it not being in current production I started looking at other engines that were still in production that could give me either similar torque numbers, fuel consumption numbers or highway driving manners/speed. Again to be fair I haven't seen these numbers on the 14B turboed and intercooled. Also does anyone have experience with the 14B in the "noisy" department.

 

[rchalmers3]

John,

There's a coupla places down this way with diesel engines stacked across the floor. Let me know if you want to check with them, and I'll post up some phone numbers.

Rick

 

[Volcano cruiser]

John,

There's a coupla places down this way with diesel engines stacked across the floor. Let me know if you want to check with them, and I'll post up some phone numbers.

Rick

Rick,
That would be great if you could post up names of the places, contact numbers and general locations. Any ideas what kinds of Toyota diesel engines they tend to carry in CR? As it happens I'll be spending more time this coming year in CR for work so I might be able to check some of these guys out personally. Thanks,
John

 

[lynchmob]

One thing to consider is vibration. There is a Hino truck that drives by my office every day that has the equivalent of a 14 or 15b and it rattles the windows. The 1HZ will be smoother and more quiet.

 

[Dougal]

Also does anyone have experience with the 14B in the "noisy" department.

Yep, it's the smoothest and quietest big 4 cyl diesel I've seen, heard or driven.
This was the non-turbo 14B fitted to two different dyna trucks.

 

[crushers]

do you want actual proven mpg figures of the turbo'd 1HZ in a 40 or some mythological figures posted up?
the direct injected 13BT gets worse milage than a indirect injected 3B...go figure
the direct injected 12HT gets worse milage than the indirect injected 2H... go figure.
the direct injected HDT gets worse milage than the indiredted 1HZ... go figure.

so the falacy of a direct injected engine getting 20% BETTER fuel economy than indirected is exposed. some people just like the indirect injection system. i don't. i do not like the sensititve throttle issue at all.

actual test of 1HZ turbo 40 driving 3600 km across Canada pulling 3000 lb trailer at 55 mph was 27.8 mpg. this was over a variety of terrain and 4 days. the 1HZ turbo is smooth, quiet and fuel efficient.

also, HP and torque figures do not reveal the true driving experience. the 1HZ NA and the 13BT share almost identical figures but are night and day driving difference. the 13BT rocks, the 1HZ NA is a stepped on slug. turbo the 1HZ and it comes a live.

i know nothing of the 15B.

 

[Tapage]

Not the best .. but here in the 3.35 BJ40 with a 14B

YouTube - 4x4 muddy hillclimb Test-JEEP-SUZUKI-TOYOTA - CLUB 4X4PANAMA

 

[Volcano cruiser]

do you want actual proven mpg figures of the turbo'd 1HZ in a 40 or some mythological figures posted up?
the direct injected 13BT gets worse milage than a indirect injected 3B...go figure
the direct injected 12HT gets worse milage than the indirect injected 2H... go figure.
the direct injected HDT gets worse milage than the indiredted 1HZ... go figure.

so the falacy of a direct injected engine getting 20% BETTER fuel economy than indirected is exposed. some people just like the indirect injection system. i don't. i do not like the sensititve throttle issue at all.

actual test of 1HZ turbo 40 driving 3600 km across Canada pulling 3000 lb trailer at 55 mph was 27.8 mpg. this was over a variety of terrain and 4 days. the 1HZ turbo is smooth, quiet and fuel efficient.

also, HP and torque figures do not reveal the true driving experience. the 1HZ NA and the 13BT share almost identical figures but are night and day driving difference. the 13BT rocks, the 1HZ NA is a stepped on slug. turbo the 1HZ and it comes a live.

i know nothing of the 15B.

Wayne,
Thanks. This is exactly what I was looking for some real driving experience with these engines. First question, you don't like indirect injected engines because of a sensitive throttle but you seem to really like the indirect injected 1HZ( turboed). How does the 1HZ's throttle differ from that of other indirect injected engines or did I miss something? Second, what effect do you think intercooling the turboed 1HZ would have had on that test drive that you did?
Thanks,
John

 

[Volcano cruiser]

Not the best .. but here in the 3.35 BJ40 with a 14B

YouTube - 4x4 muddy hillclimb Test-JEEP-SUZUKI-TOYOTA - CLUB 4X4PANAMA

The red cruiser running what 38s had the 14B correct? You guys have some nice mud holes in Panama. We only get that during rainy season here.
John

Edit:
Can you ask your buddy what kind of mileage he gets on the street and then on the highway. Also has he turboed the 14B? What does he think of the performance both before and after the turbo?

 

[rchalmers3]

John,

Here are the 4 largest suppliers of diesel motors here in Costa Rica, that I have found anyway. What makes them the largest is the inventory I have walked through or asked about. The first three also enjoy a great location on the main highway, 3 km. west of the international airport. Supplier #4 is a multi location auto parts store that also supplies used and rebuilt diesel engines.

You will have to ask each supplier, but I don't think any of them are sending motors out of country. You will have to make that arrangement yourself or perform a swap here!

1) Toyosan S.A. (direct importer and local market engines)
Contact: Rudy Rodriguez
011-506-2440-1090
011-506-2441-0600
011-506-2430-0430

2) Tucan Motor S.A. (motors and other parts)
Contact: Carlos Daniel Gomez
011-506-2442-4295
011-506-2442-4296

3) Motores Limar, S.A. (Japanese specialist)
Contact: Walter Espinoza Vargas
011-506-2440-4043

4) Auto Repuestos La Guacamaya (auto parts store)
Contact: William Zuniga Martinez
011-506-2280-3079
011-506-2280-3092

Please let me know what you find from these sources, I'm interested in hearing if their stock and prices fill your needs.

Rick

 

[Volcano cruiser]

John,

Here are the 4 largest suppliers of diesel motors here in Costa Rica, that I have found anyway. What makes them the largest is the inventory I have walked through or asked about. The first three also enjoy a great location on the main highway, 3 km. west of the international airport. Supplier #4 is a multi location auto parts store that also supplies used and rebuilt diesel engines.

You will have to ask each supplier, but I don't think any of them are sending motors out of country. You will have to make that arrangement yourself or perform a swap here!

1) Toyosan S.A. (direct importer and local market engines)
Contact: Rudy Rodriguez
011-506-2440-1090
011-506-2441-0600
011-506-2430-0430

2) Tucan Motor S.A. (motors and other parts)
Contact: Carlos Daniel Gomez
011-506-2442-4295
011-506-2442-4296

3) Motores Limar, S.A. (Japanese specialist)
Contact: Walter Espinoza Vargas
011-506-2440-4043

4) Auto Repuestos La Guacamaya (auto parts store)
Contact: William Zuniga Martinez
011-506-2280-3079
011-506-2280-3092

Please let me know what you find from these sources, I'm interested in hearing if their stock and prices fill your needs.

Rick

Rick,
Great info. These guys will be easy to checkout once as I roll in and out of CR. I'll let you know what I find as soon as I get through there probably end of January beginning of February.
Thanks alot and regards,
John

 

[crushers]

the truck is this one when we drove from Alberta to Ontario:
https://forum.ih8mud.com/diesel-tech-24-volts-systems/245813-1hz-install-into-1978-fj40.html
and this will be getting the intercooler installed during the build. the new owner can report back any fuel milage change on his drive to California. i do not expect any change in fuel milage but the EGTs should be lower and with the increase in fuel supply theperformance shoudl be even better... although it is an eye opener - grin from ear to ear creator already.

you will need to ask someone else about why the throttle response is so drasticly different as i am having a brain fart moment...

Wayne,
Thanks. This is exactly what I was looking for some real driving experience with these engines. First question, you don't like indirect injected engines because of a sensitive throttle but you seem to really like the indirect injected 1HZ( turboed). How does the 1HZ's throttle differ from that of other indirect injected engines or did I miss something? Second, what effect do you think intercooling the turboed 1HZ would have had on that test drive that you did?
Thanks,
John

 

[Volcano cruiser]

the truck is this one when we drove from Alberta to Ontario:
https://forum.ih8mud.com/diesel-tech-24-volts-systems/245813-1hz-install-into-1978-fj40.html
and this will be getting the intercooler installed during the build. the new owner can report back any fuel milage change on his drive to California. i do not expect any change in fuel milage but the EGTs should be lower and with the increase in fuel supply theperformance shoudl be even better... although it is an eye opener - grin from ear to ear creator already.

you will need to ask someone else about why the throttle response is so drasticly different as i am having a brain fart moment...

Wayne,
I read your write-up before posting. It was your report of the install and the test drive of the 1HZ that made me start doing the research on the 1HZ, frankly considering the H engines at all. I'm glad to hear that my sense that you would really optimize this engine if you both turboed and intercooled it is on the right track.

 

[Dougal]

do you want actual proven mpg figures of the turbo'd 1HZ in a 40 or some mythological figures posted up?
the direct injected 13BT gets worse milage than a indirect injected 3B...go figure
the direct injected 12HT gets worse milage than the indirect injected 2H... go figure.
the direct injected HDT gets worse milage than the indiredted 1HZ... go figure.

so the falacy of a direct injected engine getting 20% BETTER fuel economy than indirected is exposed. some people just like the indirect injection system. i don't. i do not like the sensititve throttle issue at all.

What are the sources of that comparison? Toyotas own figures in the 80 series and 100/105 series show the 1HZ using significantly more fuel than the 1HD-T and 1HD-FTE. I haven't met anyone who can get 28mpg from a 1HZ in anything that's driving empty, let alone towing.

Given that the other engines (3B vs 13BT etc) were never fitted to the same vehicles I'm wondering how the comparison was made.

Fuel efficiency is one of the main reasons that all of the manufacturers have abondoned indirect injection diesel engines. All the new engines (incl common rail, unit injectors etc) are direct injection.