Subwoofer Upgrade/replacement - Completed (1 Viewer)

[kennyv0826]

what exactly does porting the box do, and what would you recommend someone runs to the sub if they run a ported version of your box. i still kinda want to be able to blast a little bit.

First off where did you get the pic of that hottie standing in front of the fridge!? I want to see the "full size" version!

Secondly, you don't need a ported box to pound. The last 9 or 10 boxes I have built (including the boxes for my 15" home subs) have all been sealed and they absolutely pound. It's a misconception that a ported box "pounds" better. The advantage is that you can get the same volume at much lower power levels because the speaker is easier to move (but also less controlled) which makes it a little "muddier". You also need to increase the internal volume of the box which is not easy if you want to keep it out of the interior compartment of the 80. If you want to have a very good sounding box that hits the low stuff and will wake up the neighbors I can build you one without too much difficulty. But you will have to cover it with your own material since it's not gonna hide behind the factory panel like the one Steve built. But it will "pound" like you want it too. You have to decide what you want, I chose to "pound" myself since it is fun every once in a while.

I think I can even fit a 12" sub in the side of the 80 but IMO it is overkill and a good 10" will hit just as hard but actually sound better doing it.

 

[notyourmomslx450]

thanks for the info.

 

[cary]

First off where did you get the pic of that hottie standing in front of the fridge!? I want to see the "full size" version!

I asked him months ago and never got a response, let me know if you get one.

 

[kennyv0826]

Porting increases the efficiency of a subwoofer by 3db over a sealed enclosure. The downsides are limited bandwidth and the driver has much lower power handling below the ported frequency as the driver will be unloaded. Also, ported enclosures need to (normally) be larger a sealed enclosure for the same driver.

120db's is a lot of output. Pushing 600 watts to the 10" is going to get you maximum output from that driver. BTW, a a 3db increase in SPL is hardly noticable. If you want more output, I would start looking at dual 10" subs in a sealed enclosure of even subs. The downside is you will have to give up cargo area.

I saw this right after I posted mine and it's absolutely true. I'm not a big fan of ported boxes anymore. I've also noticed it's easier to blow a sub if it's in a ported box (even without much power).

 

[kennyv0826]

I asked him months ago and never got a response, let me know if you get one.

haha, will do!

 

[cary]

The advantage is that you can get the same volume at much lower power levels because the speaker is easier to move (but also less controlled) which makes it a little "muddier".

This is not necessarly true. A properly designed and built vented enclosure will sound every bit as "tight" (which is really just a generic way of discribing the QTC of the subwoofer). The problem is that vented enclosures are very sensative to being built exactly the right size and having minimal driver variance. If you look at home audio you will see that many high end manufactures use vented enclosures (Wilson Audio comes to mind). While on average sealed enclosures sound better, by far the best sounding subwoofer I have ever heard was a Muse 16 which is a slot loaded dual 10" subwoofer that is about the size of a refrigerator.

 

[Cruisin'Carolina]

Great box....

I built one in the same spot, wanted it totally stealth, but do not have your skills or sound testing capability...

Redid the thing many times, the back being fiberglass on yours solves the problem I couldn't get around....the back of mine was wood, and that 1/2" is the difference...

I gave up and put a 12" in an aftermarket box and strapped it down to the thrid row mounts...still plenty of room for strollers, groceries, etc.....but stealth is the coolest.... I mounted my amp in that storage bin, but I had to trim it a bit.


GREAT JOB!!

 

[kennyv0826]

This is not necessarly true. A properly designed and built vented enclosure will sound every bit as "tight" (which is really just a generic way of discribing the QTC of the subwoofer). The problem is that vented enclosures are very sensative to being built exactly the right size and having minimal driver variance. If you look at home audio you will see that many high end manufactures use vented enclosures (Wilson Audio comes to mind). While on average sealed enclosures sound better, by far the best sounding subwoofer I have ever heard was a Muse 16 which is a slot loaded dual 10" subwoofer that is about the size of a refrigerator.

If you build the enclosure "just right" and I mean EXACTLY right then you are correct. You have a lot more wiggle room with a sealed enclosure and that's why I like them more. I used to only build ported enclosures when I was like 16-22 years old. Then I started experimenting with sealed and realized I preffered them.

Speaker manufactures can test and test and test again till the ported enclosure is perfect. But it's not that easy for those of us that have $1000 worth of tools instead of a $1,000,000 worth. Plus they have all the expensive testing equipment and so on that makes it easier for them to make the perfect sealed enclosure. In a car where space is a premium, I'll go sealed everytime.

 

[Long Duck Dong]

Great box....

I built one in the same spot, wanted it totally stealth, but do not have your skills or sound testing capability...

Redid the thing many times, the back being fiberglass on yours solves the problem I couldn't get around....the back of mine was wood, and that 1/2" is the difference...

I gave up and put a 12" in an aftermarket box and strapped it down to the thrid row mounts...still plenty of room for strollers, groceries, etc.....but stealth is the coolest.... I mounted my amp in that storage bin, but I had to trim it a bit.


GREAT JOB!!

First up, thanks for the compliments on the enclosure....I put mine in today and i love it....

As for the "ported" debate, your both right and wrong....lol.... As a car audio store owner and AVID SPL (Sound Pressure Level) competitor I know with no doubt the ported enclosure is MUCH louder than a sealed enclosure.

Prime example: 2 months ago at a previous audio show, I ran 8 - 12" Exile XP12 Pro's in "Sealed" enclosures, my LX did a 152.8 decibel pass through the lane. This past show I ran 4 - 12" Soundstream SPLX Subwoofers in a ported enclosure and hit a 158.9 decibel pass through the lane....running the same amplifiers at both shows...

Now, if I was to have taken 4 of the Exile XP12's and put them in the box i built for the Soundstreams the Exile drivers would have shot the cones out of the baskets and probobly through the headliner. To me a "sealed" enclosure is the easy way to build a box, any subwoofer on the market will play in a sealed box.

The pupose of a ported enclosure is to raise the effieciency of the woofer to achieve greater output under lower power situations. If you raise the raise the power output with a bigger amplifer you have to raise the handling capability of the subwoofer or you will smoke the sub everytime.

Basically what it boils down too is that if your intention is to make a BIG BOOM, build a ported enclosure, buy top notch subwoofers, and good power. If you go cheap on the woofers your gonna blow them, if you go cheap on the amplifier you'll blow the woofers through distortion (Yes, distortion will blow a woofer as easy as over powering it).

If you want a medium boom, buy a sealed enclosure, buy a decent amp, and you can go fairly cheap on woofers...this is a safe combination.....see your local flea market for details....lol

Kenny, It's ONLY when building a "Band Pass" enclosure that "exact" sub specs and "exact" box dimensions are vitally crucial in order for the sub to preform at it's optimum. In a band pass enclosure the sub vitals are crutial because you have no direct access to the subwoofer, meaning in most cases the subwoofer itself is not exposed. Since the woofer in unexposed you cant hear the woofer distort, if you cant hear the wooofer distort chances are your going to toast it. This is why the sub specs, box specs, and power expectations play such a huge roll in the design of this application.

Anyways thats just my $.02

 

[kennyv0826]

I wont disagree with you entirely but I will say I have built about 100 different enclosures and although the ported ones sounded very good and pounded extremely hard they generally (I emphasise generally) won't sound as good as the same sub in a sealed box. That said, it's usually easier to get lower base from a ported box BUT it does require more air space and you should stay very close to specs and include the volume of the sub itself as part of the build and put the right amp and crossover on it and your good to go. That same ported box won't be quite as tight and snappy as a sealed box though. I've found sealed enclosures to be a little more forgiving if you have to cut down on internal box volume for one reason or another. Of cours the speaker plays a big part in that too and some speakers will sound good in a variety of enclosures (both sealed and ported)

I would just rather build a quality sealed box, put a little more power to it and have a more musical sounding sub while still delivering very good lows all the way down to the 20hz range and all while keeping the enclosure smaller. To me the space factor is important in a vehicle.

All of these things are totally "general" to the sub world and you could just as easily build a ported box that hit tighter and was more musical than a sealed box if you wanted to. It's all a matter of staying withing the specs that the manufactuer of the sub has said that sub will perform in. A good sub will come with several specs that include box sizes for "musical" which tend to be smaller enclosures, then "all around" which are medium sized, and then DB monsters which is usually a larger box and is simply if you want to put out sick bass and arent too concerned with the sound quality.

 

[Photo_Cruiser]

Well,
In any case I'll bite. Steve, we emailed each other today, but I'll call ya in tha AM to figure out payment. I'd rather use a CC and get that puppy in the mail, if possible. I'd also like to chat w/ ya about the installation....

Jeff

 

[cary]

I'm going to throw in my two extra cents.

Designing sealed and ported enclosures are nothing magical. They are all governed by the same rules of physics and the paramaters around their design are well know, they are called the Theil/Small Perameters. If you know the design specs of a driver you can design a vented or sealed enclosure using a calculator (I'm a bit behind, I don't have the fancy software to do it for me). Keep in mind, some drivers are better suited for sealed enclosures some for vented.

Specific comments:

1) A vented enclosure will provide more output for a given power input, as long at the frequency is at or above it's tuned frequency. Below the tuned frequency, the vented enclosure will roll off faster (18 or 24 db an octave depending on if it is a 3rd order or 4th order vented enclosure) and have less power handling as the driver will be unloaded and only see an open box and the rear wave will cancel the front wave rather than re-enforce it.

The SPL guys like vented enclosures because they can tune them to maximize output for the CD they use for competition. Usually they will be tuned in the 60-70hz range for competition to correspond perfectly to the frequency of the bass line in the CD the competitor is using. One thing most people don't realize is that a driver in a vented enclosure hits its mimimum throw and maximum power handling at the tuned frequency. In fact at the tuned frequency the driver can handle more power than a sealed enclosure.

2) A sealed enclosure is much more tolerant of slight size variations than a vented enclosure. If you build a vented enclosure you better be right on with your internal volume and vent sizes and lengths if you want it to work as you design it. 10% off in size, the thing won't work even close to the design. Take a sealed enclosure and change it's volume by 10% and you the sound change will be imperceptable.

3) Bandpass enclosures- There is no rocket science here either. All a bandpass enclosure is, is a sealed or vented enclosure with another enclosure in front of the driver and port in that enclosure that serves to act as an acoustical high pass filter. If it is sealed, it is a 4th order enclosure, if it is fully vented, it is a 6th order. They are hardly used anymore because they have horrible phase delay issues.

At the end of the day, it all comes down to execution. A sealed enclosure is much more tolerant of less than 100% execution (which almost all boxes are) than a vented and will accordingly be better for 99% of the population.

BTW, has anyone seen that show unique whips, what a bunch of hacks.

 

[JDMGoodness]

Enough about pros and cons of each.

Great build up and pics for those that want some thing easy and quick to install.

If it didn't cost so much to ship it here I would order one. Now if you had the dimensions......


Great job!

 

[kennyv0826]

Greeitngs,

I have a couple of observations/questions regarding this subject. First off, since the enclosure eliminates the use of the factory pocket in the panel, why not make the enclosure longer horizontally, say from the whole length of the body panel?It seems like that would give you more options of speaker diameter, number ofspeakers used and porting options.

I agree. I made my enclosures to take up all available room. It is however a lot more work than what Steve did and if he has a speaker that sounds good in that enclosure then I say keep it simple.

I am a gluten for punishment and I decide to do things the hard way sometimes. But my enclosure does sound very good so I guess it was worth it.

Hey Steve, how much are those Exile subs anyway? I've read that they are very good sounding and I want to do some testing with one and see what kind of sound I can get out of it.

 

[Long Duck Dong]

Greeitngs,

I have a couple of observations/questions regarding this subject. First off, since the enclosure eliminates the use of the factory pocket in the panel, why not make the enclosure longer horizontally, say from the whole length of the body panel?It seems like that would give you more options of speaker diameter, number ofspeakers used and porting options.

Second, for those who want to maximize sound without creating a deliterious impact on storage, look the isobaric bandpass I built into the cargo drawers I constructed for my truck. Otherwise, the only other option for speaker placement seems like the area where the spare tire goes. I drew up plans for a 2 ten isobaric bandpass that would mount down there and port through the floor, but the practicality of the cargo drawers and the impracticalty of an externally mounted bandpass enclosure mde that decision easy.

In any case, if I were going to do anything back there that eliminated the use of the factory storage pocket, I would want that space occupied by something. As it is with the pocket removed ad the inner fender visible with the door off, I would atleast carpet that area so it looked good in there and was still usefull for storage.

On another note, do any of you guys have any recomendation on a good amp for my twin 8" isobaric bandpass? I have the speakers brideged and I am driving them with a 300 watt amp.

The design was meant to be simple, cost effective, affordable and we wanted to make it simple for the DIY'er to install the enclosure on their own without fitment complications.

The bottom line is I could have built an enclosure that would have taken up that whole space behind the panel, but it would have been allot more fiberglass work. Fiberglass resign is not cheap and it would have raised the overall cost of the project. Not to mention there is no "template" to build a second, third or fourth enclosure from which ultimently means each one of the enclosures would have to be built in my truck, removed and then shipped.....this is not cost effective at all.....We have the current design set up on a router jig so we can cut and assemble the wood parts of the box, then pull and staple the fleece and be ready to fiberglass in less than an hour.

We also looked at the expandability of this enclosure, Exile is in the testing phases of an XT12, a 12" version of this woofer. The XT12 is the same exact woofer with the same mounting depth, which we will test in this enclosure when the sub arrives.

None the less my design works, sounds great and does what it is designed to do. Like it, love it, or leave it.....I'm sure you wont find any local audio store willing to build the enclosure by itself for $250....I give you the enclosure and the sub for $250

I could have easily got way out of hand with the fiberglass work, like I did in my BMW....

 

[Long Duck Dong]

I agree. I made my enclosures to take up all available room. It is however a lot more work than what Steve did and if he has a speaker that sounds good in that enclosure then I say keep it simple.

I am a gluten for punishment and I decide to do things the hard way sometimes. But my enclosure does sound very good so I guess it was worth it.

Hey Steve, how much are those Exile subs anyway? I've read that they are very good sounding and I want to do some testing with one and see what kind of sound I can get out of it.

Kenny,

We retail this same exact sub (XT10) for $179.99 in the retail store, but I can get you whatever you need in the product line much cheaper, just PM me.

Oddly enough Exile was started by a few guys from Phoenix Gold, I think one of the original Phoenix engineers and one of the sales managers....something like than anyways...

 

[kennyv0826]

Kenny,

We retail this same exact sub (XT10) for $179.99 in the retail store, but I can get you whatever you need in the product line much cheaper, just PM me.

Oddly enough Exile was started by a few guys from Phoenix Gold, I think one of the original Phoenix engineers and one of the sales managers....something like than anyways...

Steve,

You should have a PM by the time you read this post.

I always liked the Phoenix Gold amps. They were the shiznit for competitions when they came out back in the day. I think we got close to 500 watts from a 50 watt amp! Yeah thats really fair for the 50 watt class! But everyone does it I guess? I've never used thier speakers though so I cant say if I like them or not. I havent been involved in competition in about 10 years. Has much changed?

Oh and BTW, I friggin love your BMW install! You got skills! I imagine it's a competition car?

 

[kennyv0826]

The design was meant to be simple, cost effective, affordable and we wanted to make it simple for the DIY'er to install the enclosure on their own without fitment complications.

The bottom line is I could have built an enclosure that would have taken up that whole space behind the panel, but it would have been allot more fiberglass work. Fiberglass resign is not cheap and it would have raised the overall cost of the project. Not to mention there is no "template" to build a second, third or fourth enclosure from which ultimently means each one of the enclosures would have to be built in my truck, removed and then shipped.....this is not cost effective at all.....We have the current design set up on a router jig so we can cut and assemble the wood parts of the box, then pull and staple the fleece and be ready to fiberglass in less than an hour.

We also looked at the expandability of this enclosure, Exile is in the testing phases of an XT12, a 12" version of this woofer. The XT12 is the same exact woofer with the same mounting depth, which we will test in this enclosure when the sub arrives.

None the less my design works, sounds great and does what it is designed to do. Like it, love it, or leave it.....I'm sure you wont find any local audio store willing to build the enclosure by itself for $250....I give you the enclosure and the sub for $250

I could have easily got way out of hand with the fiberglass work, like I did in my BMW....

Point well made Steve. I can say that if I was going to sell my enclosure with a sub, I would have to charge at least $350 to make it worth my while because of all the time involved and of course the materials. So your enclosure is a steal at only $250!

And you're not kidding about fiberglass resin being expensive! I use close to a gallon on each of my enclosures! I could prob use less but I am making the fiberglass section a little thicker to avoid using a ton of braces to make my box as strong as possible, while keeping good internal volume. Oh, and what kind of fleece are you using? The stuff I pick up at walmart soaks up a TON of resin. Do you reccomend a different type?

I actually wish I would have seen this thread BEFORE I started my enclosure. I could have saved some time and headache and bought one of yours! Oh well, if I get one of those subs from you I'll mess around with it and see how it does in one of my enclosures and if you have customers that want more airspace to give a little more boom then I'll just ship em one of my mine.

Oh, and when you have time, post up some more pics of that Beemer (is it an M3 4 door?). I want to see the cabin.

 

[toylndcrusr]

Wow, you are an artist with fiberglass. Very impressive! Could yo give me a critque of my bandpass, and a suggestion for a better amp for it? I know that MDF os the best stuff to use for an enclosure. I used ply because it was better for the cargo box application (I was building a cargo drawer system with a sub in it rather than a sub with a cargo drawer attatched). Also, the diminsions for the sub were adjusted to match the needs for the cargo drawer, so the internal volumes are atad larger than the original plans I had, and I just guessed what size ports to use.

Wes

 

[PJT80]

BMW

Hey Steve---sorry for the off topic, but saw your bimmer pics and had to ask. Did you do an S50/S52 swap into a 95 325i? I know there wasn't a 4 door M3 in 95, I was just curious if that was the case. Would love to see some underhood pics of the conversion if so----engine swaps have always interested me. Also, nice work on the sub box----I'll be contacting you soon about some speakers.