Still no brakes!

[cuencanolenny]

How did you do that? Gorgeous day today, no rain at all. Checked all fittings, all locations. The new MC has two bleeder screws. Although I had bench bled it and was satisfied I had no bubbles, I bled it through the bleeders again. Then I started pedal bleeding again (thanks to my wife who hates brakes almost as much as I do). The final time around I set my jar up to hold two hoses for the fronts (my rears have not been an "issue" but only one bleeder per side). The end result? No leaks, no bubbles, no brakes. So tomorrow I will start taking wheels off to have a look. I hate doing that, would indicate I put something together wrong or something like that. If the new cylinders were leaking, there would have to be fluid dripping down the backing plate to the rim to the tire and I don't. Dry. Dry. Dry. Pushing easily 7 quarts through the system. I hate this.

 

[cuencanolenny]

"It wasn't till member 65swb45 offered the method of disassembling the cylinder, removing the rubber seal and inserting it into the cylinder in the vertical position and then rotating it horizontal while being submerged in the fluid. While performing this you must have the drum on the opposite side of the truck and a clamp on the other wheel cylinder that you are trying to bleed. This is for you don't push the piston out of the other wheel cylinder as your working on the current one. While assembling the cap you want to be bleeding thru the bleeder screw to displace the fluid while inserting the cap into the cylinder. The CCOT cylinders are definetly different from the stock ones that were removed off the truck , The stock ones have a metal cap that has the seal on top of it as the ccot basically has a spring with just a rubber seal that causes a larger area to catch air. The absence of this cap may be the reason why the CCOT cylinders were such a pita to bleed. If it wasn't for 65swb45 and my mechanic's thrive to not let the drum brakes get the better of him, I don't think this problem would have been solved. Some may say that normal bleeding should have taken care of this problem, but not so. This system was pump blead, vacuum blead and pressure blead several times. I hope this may help others with the same ongoing problem."

If this is what you are referring to, I am lost. It reads like I need to disassemble the shoes, springs, remove a wheel cylinder, put a C clamp on the other one, disassemble a wheel cylinder, do something I don't understand (removing rubber seal and inserting it into the cylinder, etc) while submerged in fluid and yet somehow still accessing the bleeder.

In a way it is not so surprising that Toyota found a way to make the simplest of designs aggravatingly complex. Another poster commented on using an air hammer, somehow, while bleeding rear cylinders.

 

[Martyt]

It should not be that hard but you get a medal for persistence. My mechanic redid all my brakes so I can be of no help but I have to believe someone on this Forum (lots of very smart guys) can provide a quick solve.

 

[peesalot]

Try something, put vise grip on rear soft line going to axle, see of you get pedal ?
The air hammer idea is just a way to vibrate the air outa the wheel cyls, it can work, something a little less aggressive for vibration can work too.
If the vise grip idea reveals good pedal then suspect rear wheel cyl have air and it can be a bitch to get out. As mentioned, the adjustment is usually tighter then you would do, I set mine until they drag and heat drum/wheel, then back em off a bit. Also, adjust the shoes with the wheels torqued on, it makes a difference.

 

[cuencanolenny]

Of course it is much easier to assemble the brakes before the hub goes on (axles in the rear). Everything nice and clean. The idea of taking this apart and disassembling piece by piece, and the resultant mess, is not so inviting. I'll give the vice grips and small hammer a try, also the adjusting now that the wheels are torqued on.

 

[cuencanolenny]

The vice grip trick worked, definitely in the rear. I went around the brakes this morning as I had driven it to the gas station yesterday morning (without brakes) and wanted to check the adjustment. I did tighten them up. So I'm wondering if I remove the rear wheels and only one drum at a time, can I just tap on the cylinder with the bleeder open to burp these? When mudders reference the upper part of the cylinder, since they are dual acting and are upside down to each other, any tips, please?

 

[cuencanolenny]

I didn't take any wheels off. I focused on the rears only. LR to no bubbles, RR to no bubbles. Back to the LR to check, bubbles. I went back and forth at least twelve times and each time when I bleed to no bubbles and check the other side I have bubbles.

 

[peesalot]

Just let one side open with MC full and let gravity flow, use wife's vibrator to vibrate wheel cyl. Close er up. Check MC level, add if nec., repeat other side. Adjust so you can barely get the drums to slide on, put drums and wheels on, while jacked up, adjust so you can turn the tire but with some force, drive around block, see how hot, if at all , rear drums/wheels are ?
If hot, back off 1 click each wc, repeat. If not hot tighten up a click. Repeat drive test.
FWIW, I set mine a little tight, causing some heat first couple trips around block but they seated in and were fine.
My 40 with GM 3/4 ton discs on front and drum rears, stock MC , 1970 , no proportion valve , would lock the rears if you had to, sucked when wet tho.

 

[BeerM3]

Are you still using the new MC you got from the states, or have you taken it off and put the old one back on? The two MC's I used had a significantly different booster rod depths. I know we discussed it here, but if you're still using the new dual reservoir MC, have you taken out the front brake line adapter fitting to make 100% sure there's a residual valve in the front? That noticeable rise and fall in your front reservoir sounds familiar... Once I had the correct all drum MC on the fluid level change is hardly noticeable. If you drive it around do the rear drums get really hot from doing most of the stopping power?

 

[cuencanolenny]

Are you still using the new MC you got from the states, or have you taken it off and put the old one back on? The two MC's I used had a significantly different booster rod depths. I know we discussed it here, but if you're still using the new dual reservoir MC, have you taken out the front brake line adapter fitting to make 100% sure there's a residual valve in the front? That noticeable rise and fall in your front reservoir sounds familiar... Once I had the correct all drum MC on the fluid level change is hardly noticeable. If you drive it around do the rear drums get really hot from doing most of the stopping power?

I'm using the dual reservoir MC that I purchased here locally. It does have 1 stamped on it whereas the Raybestos from the USA says 7/8". Mudders are going to pull my mechanics license, but with Vice grip on the rear flex line I managed to get it over to Super Freno for bleeding. My battery had taken a crap and so I went and got a new one. When I returned they did have the rear wheels off the ground, however, they advised they were going to move it into a different bay and pull the wheels. I'm guessing they want to see what is what, understandable. Not sure if they will know what to do if the rear cylinders indeed have a pocket of air in them. I didn't understand what the other fellows were talking about with regards to removing, disassembling, etc. Feel dumb. I have bled brakes many, many times in my life. Compared to rebuilding knuckles, brakes, rear axle bearings and seals, etc., bleeding brakes is simple. Right?

 

[BeerM3]

I didn't understand what the other fellows were talking about with regards to removing, disassembling, etc. Feel dumb

I hear ya. That's a trick that Mark @ Mark's off road came up with. I didn't fully follow how burping them in a bucket of brake fluid works either, but I was lucky enough I didn't have to. Although by the end I was close to sending him a round trip ticket and a briefcase of cash to come fix my #$%^@ brake problem.

I don't know if you can trust the 1" stamp to be an absolute guarantee that it's a dual drum master, especially if it was bought in Ecuador. It probably is but if you post the make/model of it others more knowledgeable on here could probably verify. And dumb question but did you adjust the booster rod to just clear the bottom of the piston?

 

[Martyt]

Good idea to have a second set of eyes looking at it and hopefully getting it fixed and then closing this thread (with a good ending)

 

[cuencanolenny]

I hear ya. That's a trick that Mark @ Mark's off road came up with. I didn't fully follow how burping them in a bucket of brake fluid works either, but I was lucky enough I didn't have to. Although by the end I was close to sending him a round trip ticket and a briefcase of cash to come fix my #$%^@ brake problem.

I don't know if you can trust the 1" stamp to be an absolute guarantee that it's a dual drum master, especially if it was bought in Ecuador. It probably is but if you post the make/model of it others more knowledgeable on here could probably verify. And dumb question but did you adjust the booster rod to just clear the bottom of the piston?

I checked the MC I took off (which worked fine) to the new MC and found the new MC to be .07 deeper into the MC. I don't know if the old one was "correct" or not but my pedal free play and floor board measurement (8 1/2") are good. When I dropped it off I was commenting that my fittings were dry and of course when I put my finger around the upper MC bleeder, it was wet. So pretty much everything I would have said in my poor Spanish went right out the window at that point. Oh, the vendor told me the MC was Taiwan. It was $77 (I paid a little over $100 for the Raybestos Taiwan model with the fittings on top). He also had an Aisan, that looked pretty much like my Raybestos, for $207, it was also a 7/8.

 

[peesalot]

Use that 7/8 Aisin MC. Adjust the rears as I said above. Add the smudge to the booster rod and see what happens.

 

[cuencanolenny]

The shop didn't like the thickness of my new front shoes and so they relined them. I picked it up today, they did not mention any problem with bleeding. Drives out great. Need to focus on my registration ($700!) and then I need to get the roof rack re-painted/powder coated. Then I'm ready for Peru in August/September. Yeah!

 

[Adrigan]

I just have to post a thank you to these threads. I spent about a month trying to figure out my brakes. Bleed a gallon of fluid. Burped the cylinders, new master, new booster. Finally took of hubs and found that one of my adjusters were stuck which I had to free. Once that got working I was able to adjust my brakes and get proper breakage. All around. Pissed that it took so long but now I know my rig better and fixed a handful of issues along the way.