Steering Column Noise

[Darwood]

Well I just got back from the NorCal Wagons Death Valley trip and as usual this trip was a test of the endurance of a Land Cruiser. For me the only issue I have is that my steering column seems to like to make a lot of noise when it gets bumpy. It clicks around as though the shaft in the column is loose. I can actually confirm this by moving the steering wheel back and forth. The noise is definitely coming from the column.

So I was wondering if this is normal. Should my $40k+ (when new) truck have a steering column that seems to have a lot of lateral slack in it. Also I was getting a thumping noise in the steering column area that I now think was the rag joint since I can reproduce the noise by pushing up on that joint. The noise is like a loose shock but my shocks are as tight as I can get them.

To summarize, should I rebuild my steering column and replace my rag joint since they are making noise? As far as the steering column goes it seems like the only things that could wear out are the bushing at the end (which I already have a replacement for) and the bearing at the top.

Thanks.

 

[NorCalDoug]

Should you rebuild it? Probably not.
Will you likely rebuild it? Probably so.

Sorry Derek...I have nothin' of any significance to share.

Can you hear the noise when on the rough road or is it when you're on smooth pavement as well?

To be honest, with all the clattering I had in my rig, I don't think I'd be able to hear any noise from the steering colum. The only issue I've ever had was with the clock spring...but what you describe doesn't jibe with what I recall hearing.

 

[FirstToy]

Derek, it could simply be a loose bolt somewhere along the line (?) hopefully a little wrenching will tighten things up...

 

[Darwood]

Should you rebuild it? Probably not.
Will you likely rebuild it? Probably so.

Sorry Derek...I have nothin' of any significance to share.

Can you hear the noise when on the rough road or is it when you're on smooth pavement as well?

To be honest, with all the clattering I had in my rig, I don't think I'd be able to hear any noise from the steering colum. The only issue I've ever had was with the clock spring...but what you describe doesn't jibe with what I recall hearing.

Yeah it's not the clock spring, it's more like the shaft inside the column is loose, kinda like if a wheel bearing is loose. It does only happen on rough roads, but it was the one noise that stood out among the gazillion others (like the sun roof, dash, people, etc.).

You're right that it probably is ok, but I don't recall my Jeep having a noise like this which makes this guy come out

My Tacoma had a similar noise, and feel but that was due to the crappy rack and peanut steering moving around in the frame mounted bushings.

 

[Darwood]

Derek, it could simply be a loose bolt somewhere along the line (?) hopefully a little wrenching will tighten things up...

The problem is there are hardly any bolts in the column to be loose and the ones that I checked weren't. After checking Toyota-Parts-Dealer.com it seems like the bushings and bearings aren't that expensive so I think I might just order that and replace them. Hopefully it's not the shafts since those aren't cheap.

The other thing I would need is a slide hammer to get the column apart at the tilt steering. I've had the column out once to replace the bushing at the end, but I didn't have the slide hammer so I had to put eveything back together as it was without replacing the bushing (which was making a noise before I greased it).

 

[NorCalSam]

Somthing dosen't sound right.
I too have a whinding noise maybe the clock spring.

Compare to another 80.

 

[Big_Moose]

Derek,

I assume you mean the steering wheel & shaft is moving forward (towards dash) / backwards (towards drivers), rather than up / down?

Check the bearing / retaining sleeve at the base of the column / firewall interface.

Make sure it is not similar to last years issues like last year w/Alvaro's wheel at the bottom of lippencott.........

Joe

 

[Darwood]

Derek,

I assume you mean the steering wheel & shaft is moving forward (towards dash) / backwards (towards drivers), rather than up / down?

Check the bearing / retaining sleeve at the base of the column / firewall interface.

Make sure it is not similar to last years issues like last year w/Alvaro's wheel at the bottom of lippencott.........

Joe

Hey Joe,

I actually meant up/down as in the shaft seems too small for the column so that it has play/wiggle room. It's very minor mind you and it can't be felt in normal driving, just when it gets rough. I'm positive it's not like Alvaro's issue. If you remember I was involved in fixing Alvaro's issue so I know that problem pretty well. I've also checked everything south of the column and it seems tight (up to the gear box that is).

Truthfully I can't figure out what is supposed to keep the shaft from moving around in the column. From the FSM all I see is one bearing and a collar in a bushing at the end. I think I'm probably going to order some parts and just dig into it to see what's going on. I'm very picky when it comes to steering.

 

[Big_Moose]

Hey Derek,

Sounds like a worn pillow bearing, like you describe from the FSM. I would probably replace the pillow bearing / collar, which should correct the problem.

I'm in your old home town tonight / tomorrow

Later

Joe

Hey Joe,

I actually meant up/down as in the shaft seems too small for the column so that it has play/wiggle room. It's very minor mind you and it can't be felt in normal driving, just when it gets rough. I'm positive it's not like Alvaro's issue. If you remember I was involved in fixing Alvaro's issue so I know that problem pretty well. I've also checked everything south of the column and it seems tight (up to the gear box that is).

Truthfully I can't figure out what is supposed to keep the shaft from moving around in the column. From the FSM all I see is one bearing and a collar in a bushing at the end. I think I'm probably going to order some parts and just dig into it to see what's going on. I'm very picky when it comes to steering.[/QUOTE

 

[Mickldo]

Have you had the steering wheel off lately? When I had my car alarm fitted the installer didn't tighten the steering wheel properly. I don't think he seated it correctly on the tapered spline. When I had a decent hit through the steering it reseated itself then the nut wasn't tight anymore.
My steering column has other issues too. It has some free play which I think is coming from the rag joint area. It's either coming from the rag joint or the bush? where the column goes through the fire wall. Still have to sort this one out. Will let everybody Know when I figure something out.

 

[Darwood]

Hey Derek,

Sounds like a worn pillow bearing, like you describe from the FSM. I would probably replace the pillow bearing / collar, which should correct the problem.

I'm in your old home town tonight / tomorrow

Later

Joe

I've now ordered the parts from CDan. Thanks for confirming my suspicion. Once I get everything replaced I'll post if it made a difference or not. Now I need to find a slide hammer to get the column apart...

So Joe, how's AZ treating you?

 

[Darwood]

So this past weekend I rebuilt my steering column with the parts from CDan. The interesting part was the w break off bolts that I needed to extract to remove the ignition part of the column. This column needed to be removed to get the slide hammer on a bolt. Well besides being a break off bolt some joker at the factory decided to use thread locker on the bolts. So not only did I need to use a bolt extractor since there was no head on the bolt for I assume security reasons, it wasn't fun to get out because of the tread locker.

Well anyway, I replaced one of the bearings (there were two but I assume the 2nd comes with the upper housing since it wasn't listed anywhere), the collar bushing at the end, the collar, the compression spring, and a plastic thrust washer. It said to use Molybdenum Disulfide Lithium Based Grease so I did, however now the truck smells a bit like grease inside. Next time I need to find a low odor grease

All in all I noticed an improvement in steering. For some reason it seems rebuilding the column tightened up the steering. Well to be fair I also replaced the rag joint (old one seemed fine though) and moved the "center" of the steering box. I was going to adjust the steering box, however when I went to adjust it I realized that I've been running it too tight for probably too long, and I just didn't want to mess with it incase I made it worse. In hindsight I probably should have just tried to adjust it based on ELJefe's procedure.

I think I'm just going to get a remanufactured steering box rather then mess with my current one. If the sector shaft and worm gear are messed up that could get expensive.

Any recommendations on where to get a remanufactured box?

Oh yeah one other thing, when I took out my steering column it had alot of yellow marks on it with a 22 writen on it as well in the yellow paint. It reminded me of dismantelers marks. It also had some blue marks on the welds but those looked more like foactory marks. I took a picture and I'll have to post it, but I think my column had been replaced with a used unit which could explain why mine was worn out.

 

[ElJefe]

Before spending the money on a rebuilt, I would try to adjust it. If it is leaking I would rebuild it yourself. They are not really that fragile or complicated. The rebuild is really simple, a couple of teflon seals , about 8 orings and a couple of bearings. I did the steering box on a 60 in an afternoon. At the very least I would open it up and take a ook at the gears. It's a basic worm and roller. If they both look good with no scuffing or abnormal wear... look for the same things as you would when inspecting a differential, as both types of gears sliding over one another... throw a seal kit, set the preload on the bearings, and you are good to go.

If you are set on replacement... you may want to look around for a used unit online as I am always a little skeptical of the usual parts store rebuilds. With a little effort, you should be able to find one reasonably online... I recently bought a 95 4x4 pathfinder box for my Bronco out of a place in AZ for $35 delivered.

 

[Driley]

Off subject... Darwood, did you get the flare gasket? I hope it made the trip without getting smashed.

 

[Darwood]

Off subject... Darwood, did you get the flare gasket? I hope it made the trip without getting smashed.

I did thanks Driley. It came Saturday. I'm planning to send you out a little thanks token.

 

[Darwood]

ElJefe thanks for the advice. I'm kicking myself now for not adjusting the box. I had everything apart, even the drag link was off. Do you think I can slide the lower shaft off the box without taking the column out? Hmm guess it's not too hard to take the column out again. It's just 4 dash screws, 5 dash bolts, 2 bolts and 2 nuts.

So hopefully you're right and the gears are strong enough that they aren't toast. My box was so tight that it was impossible for me to turn at the input shaft, and I could barely turn the box by pushing on the pitman arm. I did notice that at the further extremes there was slop in the gears as to be expected, however I had a hard time determining the exact center. The box was just too tight.

 

[Driley]

Not necessary... just good mud karma! (I would love to get a "IH8MUD" sticker if you have one laying around!)

 

[ElJefe]

ElJefe thanks for the advice. I'm kicking myself now for not adjusting the box. I had everything apart, even the drag link was off. Do you think I can slide the lower shaft off the box without taking the column out? Hmm guess it's not too hard to take the column out again. It's just 4 dash screws, 5 dash bolts, 2 bolts and 2 nuts.

So hopefully you're right and the gears are strong enough that they aren't toast. My box was so tight that it was impossible for me to turn at the input shaft, and I could barely turn the box by pushing on the pitman arm. I did notice that at the further extremes there was slop in the gears as to be expected, however I had a hard time determining the exact center. The box was just too tight.

First... was the front suspension attached at the time you were trying to cycle the steering??? With the entire front suspension attached, and the box filled with fluid, you will not likely be able to easily turn the box using just the splined input shaft or pushing on the pitman arm by hand. Even with the car off, turning the box is going to be pulling fluid through the pump to fill the expanding chamber on one side of the piston, and pushing fluid to the reservior from the other side of the piston, causing A LOT of resistance through the long PS cooler lines. Your box may not be nearly as overtightened as you think, if at all. If it is badly overtightened, you should be able to jack up the front of the truck and cycle the steering back and forth with the steering wheel and feel a definite tight spot going over center.


I'm not sure about the 80 lower steering shaft as I have not needed to be in there... knock on wood... but every other one that I have seen has been collapsable to keep you from getting impaled on the collumn should you hit something hard enough. Now you have me intrigued and I am going to take a look later.

If you think you need to adjust it, be sure to loosen it first before removing anything. If the adjuster is wedged in good it can be tough to get free once the box is disconnected. To losen the box, break the lock nut lose and screw the adjusting screw OUT 2 turns. Then tighten up the lock nut to seal it back up, start it up and cycle the steering lock to lock a few times. At this point you should be able to feel some slop in the system with the wheels straight ahead. You are going to have to guess at straight if you can't jack up the front.

To do a quick and relatively easy adjustment... Make sure the box is as close to straight as you can figure, although this is not critical to be dead-nuts on. Next remove the steering shaft from the cloumn while leaving it attached to the box. This will allow you to use the rag joint as a handle to turn the input shaft. Using the rag joint as a handle, wiggle the input shaft back and forth like you are rattling a locked doorknob. Get a feel for how much slop there is in the box. Now start tightening in 1/4 turn increments and then wiggle. You will feel the slop reduce. When it nearly dissappears, go to 1/8 turns on the screw. As soon as you cannot feel any slop, tighten the lock nut. At this point I would recomend jacking the front at cycling the steering back and forth by hand using the ragjoint. If all is well it will cycle smoothly without any tight spots. If you feel a slight tightspot over center, you can loosen the screw 1/16 and grab a beer.

 

[Darwood]

First... was the front suspension attached at the time you were trying to cycle the steering??? With the entire front suspension attached, and the box filled with fluid, you will not likely be able to easily turn the box using just the splined input shaft or pushing on the pitman arm by hand. Even with the car off, turning the box is going to be pulling fluid through the pump to fill the expanding chamber on one side of the piston, and pushing fluid to the reservior from the other side of the piston, causing A LOT of resistance through the long PS cooler lines. Your box may not be nearly as overtightened as you think, if at all. If it is badly overtightened, you should be able to jack up the front of the truck and cycle the steering back and forth with the steering wheel and feel a definite tight spot going over center.

I had the drag link disconnected from the pitman arm and the steering shaft was disconnected from the splined input shaft. I did have the thought that the fluid was creating back pressure but I couldn't think of an easy way to reduce this. So to recap, the box was only connected to the power steering system.

I'm not sure about the 80 lower steering shaft as I have not needed to be in there... knock on wood... but every other one that I have seen has been collapsable to keep you from getting impaled on the collumn should you hit something hard enough. Now you have me intrigued and I am going to take a look later.

The 80 lower shaft does appear to be collapsable. It has ribs that look like they would nicely de-telescope in an accident.

If you think you need to adjust it, be sure to loosen it first before removing anything. If the adjuster is wedged in good it can be tough to get free once the box is disconnected. To losen the box, break the lock nut lose and screw the adjusting screw OUT 2 turns. Then tighten up the lock nut to seal it back up, start it up and cycle the steering lock to lock a few times. At this point you should be able to feel some slop in the system with the wheels straight ahead. You are going to have to guess at straight if you can't jack up the front.

To do a quick and relatively easy adjustment... Make sure the box is as close to straight as you can figure, although this is not critical to be dead-nuts on. Next remove the steering shaft from the cloumn while leaving it attached to the box. This will allow you to use the rag joint as a handle to turn the input shaft. Using the rag joint as a handle, wiggle the input shaft back and forth like you are rattling a locked doorknob. Get a feel for how much slop there is in the box. Now start tightening in 1/4 turn increments and then wiggle. You will feel the slop reduce. When it nearly dissappears, go to 1/8 turns on the screw. As soon as you cannot feel any slop, tighten the lock nut. At this point I would recomend jacking the front at cycling the steering back and forth by hand using the ragjoint. If all is well it will cycle smoothly without any tight spots. If you feel a slight tightspot over center, you can loosen the screw 1/16 and grab a beer.

Thanks for the advice. So do you have an easy way to find the center? The FSM mentions that you can find it by cycling from lock to lock in the box, counting the rotations, and then dividing the rotations by 2. Then just go to one lock and turn the shaft by the lock to lock divided by 2 rotations. I've also read that you've suggested to find the center based on resistance, but I found that was too subjective for me.

Also I do know you can disconnect the the column at the rag joint without too much trouble. I've done this before when I replaced the dust seal for the shaft at the firewall.

 

[Darwood]

A little followup:

Well I went and adjusted the box and found the center. The center turns out to be when the pinion arm alignment mark on the sector shaft is parallel with the frame. I also learned that the clicking in the steering shaft can occur when the lower steering shaft isn't pushed as far down as it would go on the steering box input shaft. For some reason this creates noise at the rag joint area due to the slack.

I went to adjust the box and noticed that is was smothish in the center position with a little slack, but it would then bind when the shaft was turned 1/2 a turn either way. Then it would get slack in the pitman arm as expected. From everything I've read, the box shouldn't behave like this. Tightening it only produces more binding so I think I'm out of preload adjustment. My thought is that the bearings and or bushings are shot.

So I'm still wondering if I should get a rebuild or try to rebuild it myself. The problem is if the worm gear is shot then the price on that part is getting myself into the rebuild price category, expecially if you throw in a bad sector shaft.