I can just imagine the internal discussions, arguments, that went on over this feature. Interior designers, vs mechanical engineers, vs software engineers, and others. As this is a critical control interface, they probably developed it with additional due diligence. Evidently still not up to the diligence that Toyota would apply probably for even basic things.
So i test drove a Defender today….
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I can just imagine the internal discussions, arguments, that went on over this feature. Interior designers, vs mechanical engineers, vs software engineers, and others. As this is a critical control interface, they probably developed it with additional due diligence. Evidently still not up to the diligence that Toyota would apply probably for even basic things.
greynolds
SILVER Star
I think a significant difference of note here is that Toyota probably wouldn't implement a "feature" like this. The fact that it's a critical system would take priority, as it should. Maybe I'm too simple oriented, but I wasn't even remotely impressed with the aesthetic of the thing disappearing into the console anyway. From day one, my impression of it was "this is stupid and will be a problem if it ever stops working".
There were a few other things I've never run into before that you wouldn't run into on even the least expensive Toyota. At delivery, the hood wasn't latching properly - I noticed it fluttering at highway speeds on the initial drive home only to discover the latch was out of alignment. It took them multiple tries to get it right. Less serious, but one of the speakers in the sound system was bad right from the start. There were a few other things as well, but the specifics are (thankfully) leaving my memory at this point. I was so hopeful at the time that Land Rover had finally gotten their act together, but I should have known better.
I had been debating between the Range Rover and a G550 at the time. The air suspension was the thing that tipped the scales as it would make it easier for my short, elderly mom to get in and out. After 6 months, I traded the Range Rover in for a new 2014 G550 for almost exactly what I had paid for it as demand was super high at the time for Range Rovers. It turned out the factory steps on the G550 worked out fine for my mom. The G550 wasn't at Toyota's level of perfection, but it was a huge improvement over the Range Rover. I ended up with a 2017 G63 a few years later and then traded that in for the LC200. The G63 was going to be insanely expensive to own once the warranty expired and routine maintenance items started to become more numerous. Brake parts for the G63 are crazy expensive and anything done at the dealer is $$$$. Other than long term maintenance costs, I loved the G550 / G63 and would still have the G63 otherwise. But I'm also very happy with the LC200 and the long term costs should be a lot more reasonable. It should also be more reliable over the long haul as well.
I love the look of the G63. After reading this post and never owning one, it's giving me pause.
greynolds
SILVER Star
It's a low(ish) production premium vehicle at a premium price and parts cost a premium, even compared to some other Mercedes models. If you want to buy a new one within the next few years, be prepared to pay $50-100K over MSRP (this is something I personally refuse to do unless there's literally no other vehicle available at or below MSRP). If you keep the vehicle for a while, that $50-100K is lost money over and above the normal depreciation once the market is back to normal. From what I've heard, most expected dealer allocations for G550's and G63's are pretty much spoken for with customer reservations for the next 2-3 years. And don't get me wrong - they're WONDERFUL vehicles. But the cost of ownership is high and I decided it made sense to move on to make retiring in a "few" years a more realistic option. If buying a new Land Cruiser is a stretch financially, then buying a G-wagon would probably be a bad financial decision. If money really isn't much of a consideration, then go for it.
Pura Vida
What an absolute noob
I think there is a way to register it as a commercial vehicle or something, and the resale value is relatively close to the MSRP compared to other cars, so I figure it’s not so bad if you sell it when the warranty ends
greynolds
SILVER Star
Resale value has been strong on G-wagons for a while now. I owned 3 from new - a 2014 G550, 2016 G550, and 2017 G63. I got pretty strong trade in values on each, but definitely not what I paid for them. However, if you pay significantly more than MSRP now and hold onto it until close to when the warranty ends and prices come back to normal, you should expect to lose something like $70-120K at that point, rather than around $20K or so if buying at MSRP. IMHO, that's a big risk to take if money isn't no object. Also keep in mind that mileage is important on the trade in values - mine were my daily drivers, not garage queens, and that has an impact on the value.
I'm not entirely sure what the advantage would be registering it as a commercial vehicle, other than potential tax write-offs - those would only be valid if you can legally justify them and it's something I definitely can't justify on my taxes.
The bottom line is - don't buy a G-wagon for $50K or more over MSRP and expect to come close to breaking even if you keep it for a few years or more.
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This is so spot on....The real cost is horrible gas mileage and upgrades and gadgets. But I keep buying them. My 2010 4Runner I sold to a neighbor. He has run two kids through it, one in college in Boston and the at UNC. It is fully modded, skids, rock rails, roof rack, bumper, etc. still running like a top no telling how many miles are on it now....I am now building his Land Cruiser that I will sell him after I get tired of it, in about 150,000 miles.
As in your HE that you own now?
I have a buddy who bought a brand new 2000 4Runner Limited 4x4 back in 2000 upon graduating from college. He owned it post college and drove it as his daily all over the US for work in the oil field until 2011 when he replaced it with a new 2010 4Runner Limited 4x4. At the time he stopped driving it he had 230K miles on it with very few repairs and nothing major replaced. He then kept it as a backup vehicle until 2014 when his sister moved to Texas and drove it for a few years until she got back on her feet post divorce. In 2016 his brother took it over and drove it for a few years while starting a new business venture. In 2018 it had reached 315K miles and it was time for some overhaul service. It got new brakes, suspension, cooling system, starter, fuel pump, etc., basically the works. At this point it was ready for yet another driver and his niece took it to use for her vehicle in college out of state where she stacked another 55K on it in a few years without any problems.
The vehicle still remains in the family and doesn't look half bad to boot. Last we spoke it had over 380K miles on it and he planned to give it to his nephew when he turns 16 in a few years. Moral of the story is that with proper maintenance and daily use these vehicles can live on for decades as reliable transport. I hope it does live on and I hear of it hitting 500K miles in the next decade. He still has his 2010 that he continues to use as his daily and it just surpassed 250K miles. It's safe to say they are Toyota fans and have more than gotten their money's worth out of those two 4Runners. Prior to the recent spike in price and demand for the 200 Series he was planning to buy a 2016+ Cruiser to replace his 4Runner but has decided to wait for the next gen 4Runner/GX instead.
The vehicle still remains in the family and doesn't look half bad to boot. Last we spoke it had over 380K miles on it and he planned to give it to his nephew when he turns 16 in a few years. Moral of the story is that with proper maintenance and daily use these vehicles can live on for decades as reliable transport. I hope it does live on and I hear of it hitting 500K miles in the next decade. He still has his 2010 that he continues to use as his daily and it just surpassed 250K miles. It's safe to say they are Toyota fans and have more than gotten their money's worth out of those two 4Runners. Prior to the recent spike in price and demand for the 200 Series he was planning to buy a 2016+ Cruiser to replace his 4Runner but has decided to wait for the next gen 4Runner/GX instead.
The 3rd gen 4Runner was pretty much the pinnacle of Toyota reliability. I had a 2000 SR5 4Runner Sport. In the first 120k I had one bad O2 sensor and an electric window motor that failed. Oh and a first set of front brakes at ~110k miles. I probably should have kept it but we only needed one vehicle and while it was reliable the 180HP V6 is a slouch for towing anything more than a popup.
Yep. I had a 1998 4Runner SR5 that I bought new. Sold it in 2015 with 260k on the clock. Literally the only thing I replaced outside of tires, brakes and oil was the alternator. That's it. Still ran like a top and I probably should have kept it.
I had the new Defender (P400) 2020 model for a year and got rid of it a few months ago for my 2019 LC200. I actually really liked the new Defender. It was one of the best driving vehicles I've ever owned. Looked great. Was plenty big inside. Comfortable. Could tow well. Reasonably quiet on the road. The camera system is awesome. The rear-view mirror w/roof-mounted camera was brilliant (why didnt others do that sooner?) And actually not ridiculously priced for what if offers in comparison to other models (mine was around $70K with both offroad pkgs but not many other options). Mine had no issues and never went to the shop - actually went once for 20 mins because when they installed the tow hitch I bought with the truck they forgot to reconnect the rear wiper fluid line and it was leaking at a joint I couldn't easily access to fix myself. I put 10K miles on it total.
I made money on the truck (1 yr old and worth more than what I paid for it) - that was the final decider to get rid of it.
After owning it, I came to realize it wasn't something I would want to own a long time. And wasn't something you could easily mod which you would want to do if you did try to own it a long time. The interior (as previous poster stated) was very nice but overly complex. All different materials being used in different areas. Plastics, neoprene, robustec, etc... Each was a PITA to clean and often required different things to clean them well and not stain. The seats (robustec) stained from water which is not a good thing in an off-roader. Modifying it was stupidly over-complicated. The winch install (if you dare try) takes a few days and that's assuming you've done it before and are a pretty experienced mechanic. Thats how one of the original TFL vehicles got bricked - the LR tech (at a dealership) doing the install cut a wiring loom doing the winch install that was not easily repairable. Regardless, they didn't make it easy even when fitting a LR OEM accessory. I had to remove the entire rear bumper just to install the tow hooks for recovery. And the front tow hook is buried behind a plastic shroud that you are supposed to remove by crawling under there (when stuck in mud?) to access it - makes no sense. All these things can be fixed with yet more expensive plastic LR accessories and such - but just not well thought out for the intended use (off-roading). Final issue was the plastics throughout. Bumpers, trim, a-pillars, windshield surrounds = all plastic. Easy and probably cheaper to replace. Not trust inspiring. Many had the front a-pillar trim rattle and then actually fly off when at highway speeds or under heavy winds. Maybe all new vehicles are built like that - just seemed like an off-roader would be built more stout/sensibly. I'm used to working on my old Defender so what do I know.
I made money on the truck (1 yr old and worth more than what I paid for it) - that was the final decider to get rid of it.
After owning it, I came to realize it wasn't something I would want to own a long time. And wasn't something you could easily mod which you would want to do if you did try to own it a long time. The interior (as previous poster stated) was very nice but overly complex. All different materials being used in different areas. Plastics, neoprene, robustec, etc... Each was a PITA to clean and often required different things to clean them well and not stain. The seats (robustec) stained from water which is not a good thing in an off-roader. Modifying it was stupidly over-complicated. The winch install (if you dare try) takes a few days and that's assuming you've done it before and are a pretty experienced mechanic. Thats how one of the original TFL vehicles got bricked - the LR tech (at a dealership) doing the install cut a wiring loom doing the winch install that was not easily repairable. Regardless, they didn't make it easy even when fitting a LR OEM accessory. I had to remove the entire rear bumper just to install the tow hooks for recovery. And the front tow hook is buried behind a plastic shroud that you are supposed to remove by crawling under there (when stuck in mud?) to access it - makes no sense. All these things can be fixed with yet more expensive plastic LR accessories and such - but just not well thought out for the intended use (off-roading). Final issue was the plastics throughout. Bumpers, trim, a-pillars, windshield surrounds = all plastic. Easy and probably cheaper to replace. Not trust inspiring. Many had the front a-pillar trim rattle and then actually fly off when at highway speeds or under heavy winds. Maybe all new vehicles are built like that - just seemed like an off-roader would be built more stout/sensibly. I'm used to working on my old Defender so what do I know.
But that’s the problem with Land Rover. Beautiful vehicle on the surface but horrible decision making made underneath the sheetmetal. Poor planning of components…as if the different design team work in isolation from each other. And this is why every Land Rover product will fail on you.
Correct
Thanks for the info.
Even though I do not think prices will ever come back to "normal", paying 50K over MSRP is a non starter for me.
I was looking to keep it for awhile, but am very happy with the LC.
I am just going to build this one like I did my last and should be happy until I get obsessed with another vehicle down the road!
greynolds
SILVER Star
I can tell you that though there are times when I wonder if I did the right thing trading in the G63, I'm extremely happy with the LC. Just don't go test drive one and you'll never know what you're missing
.I'm certain that prices will come back down at least close to normal; at least to the point where you only see these ridiculous markups on a few special vehicles where the manufacturer doesn't prevent it from happening. The current market has seen ridiculous markups even on very common vehicles like the Honda Ridgeline because of a perfect storm of chip shortages, supply chain issues, pent up demand, and so on. That just isn't going to last forever.
I have never driven one...I can tell you that though there are times when I wonder if I did the right thing trading in the G63, I'm extremely happy with the LC. Just don't go test drive one and you'll never know what you're missing
I'm certain that prices will come back down at least close to normal; at least to the point where you only see these ridiculous markups on a few special vehicles where the manufacturer doesn't prevent it from happening. The current market has seen ridiculous markups even on very common vehicles like the Honda Ridgeline because of a perfect storm of chip shortages, supply chain issues, pent up demand, and so on. That just isn't going to last forever.
Dammit there is a dealership on the way home that has a nice G550 in my price range!
Agreed that these markups will probably subside, but 2019 prices are not coming back.
greynolds
SILVER Star
In your price range factoring in the markup? If it's a pre-2019 (so the old version), keep in mind that the G550 handles very differently from the G63 and can wander quite a bit at highway speeds, while the G63 is much easier to drive at highway speeds (and is quite honestly a ton of fun to drive). The suspensions on the 2 are tuned quite differently. I haven't driven either of the new 2019+ versions. The 2019+ model is much more luxurious inside and actually gives up some of the charm of the original G-wagon IMHO. The new model also forfeits some cargo space in the rear to give more legroom for the 2nd row seats (despite the overall vehicle length being slightly longer as well).
Pre-pandemic, G-wagons typically sold for MSRP or very modest discounts with the 2019's sometimes going for a bit over MSRP. Right now, they sell for $50-100K (or more) above MSRP. At some point in the next few years, I fully expect we'll be back close to MSRP for them. The exact timing on that will depend on how long the demand for them exceeds the supply. But the G-wagon is a bit of a special case right now like the Range Rover had been for a while back in ~2014.
I'll be shocked if we continue to see crazy prices on everything long term. If I'm wrong, I'll be keeping my current LC for a very long time.
Well yeah. It’s a Land Rover.
I am very satisfied with the Land Cruiser. Over the past year ours has taken us across the US from 110 degree summer days in Houston to the cold winter on record in the Pacific Northwest. It has grimly done its duty without complaint every single time, regardless of the circumstances. I paid $63k for a 2019 CPO with 42k miles. I think I could probably sell it for more at this point.
We were looking at the Defender, but felt very uncomfortable taking it across the country for months at a time. The stress that something crucial might breakdown or stop working made it a non starter.
We were looking at the Defender, but felt very uncomfortable taking it across the country for months at a time. The stress that something crucial might breakdown or stop working made it a non starter.
