Sean's 80 build discussion.

[-Spike-]

Of your list, I have run:
Upper Ajax (Quarter damage- I blame my spotter)
Upper Woodpecker
Lower Woodpecker
Martinez Canyon

Lower Terminator (Fender damage- I blame my spotter- oh crap, I didn't have one, never mind)

The damage on both was avoidable. I've crushed both rockers on various trails due to a complete lack of respect for them. Someday I'll replace them with some square tube.

The rest of the trails I've never seen. I've heard stories though. I used to think I'd invite myself along with the Az Bratt Pack or BTG for some rougher stuff, but I think I'd be in their way so I haven't bothered. I'd like to make my rig just a bit more capable and get a winch before I impose myself on the hardcore guys. I really need to replace the rockers, move the cat, do some relatively minor suspension mods like longer shocks, stuff some 37's under it (and regear to 5.29's), and finish my front bumper before I tackle stuff like your post #54. I think it's doable though. I keep looking at my truck and trying to envision a 0 degree departure- you'd have to bob it I'd think. You might get down to around 30 degrees if you tucked the bumper completely under the tailgate and replaced the lower quarters with some protection. Not covered- you'd have to cut them out I would think. I'm not sure how difficult it would be to lift the drivetrain if you did a body lift, but that would probably fix any issues with dragging the belly if it's possible.

I'm still somewhat of a n00b to wheeling- my 80 is more capable than it's driver, and it always suprises me with what it does with ease. I can't remember taking a strap, although it may have happened to drag a diff over something. It has never broken anything. It has never lacked power offroad with true 35" tires and stock 4.1? gearing. It's major handicap is the unbalanced suspension- the front doesn't really articulate until the rear is fully flexed, and even then not much. I imagine a 3 link setup would fix that.

I think Slee is saying the 80 is limited as to what trails it can run because of it's size and weight, and you don't need to do much to it to make it fully capable of running any trail it can fit on. I don't think he read this thread and fully understood just how far you're willing to go to get what you want, so he gave you some of the standard answers he gives to people asking about building up the 80 series. That's why I linked this thread in the one on the 80 board, hoping he might get interested and really think the project out. Or I might have that wrong. Personally, I think the 80 would be a good base for a family rock crawler if you're willing to go to some lengths- and it sounds like you are going to go to those lengths no matter what the base vehicle is.

-Spike

 

[Sean K.]

^^^^This man gets it! After pages of typing, I think someone finally understands what I'm saying (not that goodtimes and offroader5 didn't.....they know me).

I need to run for now....I'll try and get back to this thread today. I've got to get out in the garage and change out my upper coilover springs, warm the engine and adjust idle and try and bleed the brakes some before the run this morning.

Sean

 

[sleeoffroad]

I think Slee is saying the 80 is limited as to what trails it can run because of it's size and weight, and you don't need to do much to it to make it fully capable of running any trail it can fit on. I don't think he read this thread and fully understood just how far you're willing to go to get what you want, so he gave you some of the standard answers he gives to people asking about building up the 80 series. That's why I linked this thread in the one on the 80 board, hoping he might get interested and really think the project out. Or I might have that wrong. Personally, I think the 80 would be a good base for a family rock crawler if you're willing to go to some lengths- and it sounds like you are going to go to those lengths no matter what the base vehicle is.

-Spike

Aha, but I do. I think you nailed it in what I had in mind. I don't see doing the work on the axles etc on a full bodied 80 since the body will limit you way more than the axle's or suspension setup ever will. Even if you are prepared to beat the living dailights out of the body.

If driving to Moab and then doing trails is the criteria, I would leave the suspension alone, upgrade drivetrain and protect the body.

Right now the biggest drawback is the crawler issue. Without crawler gears I can assure you it doesn't matter what axles you put under it (except portals with better ratio's) when you attempt those kinds of waterfalls you are going to break stuff.

No crawler gears = Broken Rear Axle



On the ShortBus I would have had a lot less breakage if I swapped Dana 60's with 35 spline stuff and spent the time to flatten the belly and smooth the frame. However for our business I wanted to see how far I could push a stock setup before it totally fell apart.

I have now learned what I wanted and the next step is going to be to bugify the ShortBus. New axles and custom suspension and probably change the front end as well.

So I guess if you evaluate what you are left with when doing a 80 with new axles and suspension, you have a heavy motor that is really not that powerfull, a good tranny and transfercase, limited crawler gear setups and a big body. A low frame and a heavy overall setup. So I just don't see what you gain.

In that case a 4Runner with a 3.4 might be a better setup, easier to make into a rock crawler / family mobile.

 

[Sean K.]

Well....my trip plans for the day are completely FAWKED. I've got an amp draw somewhere in the electrical system. I apparently replaced a perfectly good Optima the day before the maiden voyage thinking the battery was just old.

In any case, I'm not going anywhere today.

So, back to the topic at hand.

Thanks for posting here Christo.

Maybe I didn't make it clear in the other thread.....perhaps I got it confused with this one where I mentioned several times that I would definitely get the crawler from Marks4wd.

The main reason I got into Toyota 4wd trucks in the first place was b/c of the Marlin Crawler. I'm a huge fan of Marlin's and one of the biggest advocates of deep crawl ratios on trail rigs that you'll probably ever talk to. Hell, I'm geared 265:1 in my buggy now.....stupid low, but I do use it quite a bit.

This statement:

"So I guess if you evaluate what you are left with when doing a 80 with new axles and suspension, you have a heavy motor that is really not that powerfull, a good tranny and transfercase, limited crawler gear setups and a big body. A low frame and a heavy overall setup. So I just don't see what you gain. "

pretty much sums it all up, I'd say. The things I still don't know (and no one has been able to answer so far) is what a trail 80 weighs.

Looking at the 99 Runner I already own, the 80 is a little bigger and I'm sure it's heavier too, I just wonder how much of a difference we're talking here b/c if it isn't too much, I would probably still go ahead with an 80, just b/c I like them so much.

Granted, the Runner gets almost twice the mileage, is smaller and plenty comfortable, has a really nice gear driven dual tcase option (2.28:1 in the front case, 4.70:1 in the rear) available from Marlin that completely replaces the stock chain driven case for $1800. Since I'm gonna do D60's anyway.....that's a wash between the two. Basically, it's a difference in sheetmetal and what'll end up costing when all's said and done. I'd rather have an 80, but it seems there's a reason why people build 4Runners over 80s for harder trails and perhaps it's silly of me to re-invent the wheel.

As for bugifying your 80.....I would only consider that option for your business. Then again, a complete tube frame with all 80 running gear would still appeal to your customers.

I looked seriously into just building my old Toyota truck into a hardcore truggy. At the end of the day though, you'll end up with a much more capable rig with a lot less headache if you ditch it all and start from scratch.....no limitations (that you don't design in yourself) that way and that's really what buggies are all about....less compromise, more fun.

Just my humble opinion though. Take it FWIW.

Thanks for all your help and advice.....it's very much appreciated and respected.

Take care,
Sean
(aka the guy who's shamelessly posting a pic just b/c! )

 

[Sean K.]

I don't see an 80 having much trouble on Upper Ajax or Martinez, but I could see some rock rash coming off of H2H and it has been so long since I was on Axle Alley, I don't remember much of it.

The 80 is a heavy SOB though. Just a lot of mass to pull up big verticals, and a ton of sheetmetal and glass up high on the rear (as John mentioned). Spike did a good job on Pyeatt (most difficult trail I have been on when an 80 was along), but his rig is kinda ugly so he didn't seem to scared of a new scratch or two.

I think you are going to have a difficult time getting an 80 to perform to the level your toyota did.

H2H is a definite deal breaker for an 80....unless you kept in really narrow. The two big squeezes will royally F-up the body....likely even on a Runner. Since I'm planning to go as wider or slightly wider than the buggy, it's not going to be "narrow". That fact alone will likely keep me off of H2H and probably Bad Medicine.

AA shouldn't be a problem....while it's a tight canyon, it's not like H2H in terms of sheer rock walls on both sides.

Ya know, the 80 is a lot of weight, but there for a while the trend was super heavy with all my Jeep buddies plating their tubs in 3/16" steel, running 14 bolts, 42s, stretched WBs out to 120+. They climbed fine.....remember, weight is traction. On a huge vertical....you're right. But if it can be crawled, I don't think the weight will be a huge, hindering factor. The glass up high and extra weight of a top are the biggest differences I see (as well as all that sheetmetal).

You said, "I think you are going to have a difficult time getting an 80 to perform to the level your toyota did".

You really think so? I don't know....the old Toy worked good, but after driving my buggy around the little bit that I have, I can now see so much room for improvement in that old truck.....stuff I'd be doing on the next project.

Ahhh....maybe you guys are right. A Runner makes a lot more sense from a size and weight standpoint. Think I could make one of those comparable to my old Toyota, Brian?

Sean

 

[Sean K.]

Of your list, I have run:
Upper Ajax (Quarter damage- I blame my spotter)
Upper Woodpecker
Lower Woodpecker
Martinez Canyon

Lower Terminator (Fender damage- I blame my spotter- oh crap, I didn't have one, never mind)

The damage on both was avoidable. I've crushed both rockers on various trails due to a complete lack of respect for them. Someday I'll replace them with some square tube.

The rest of the trails I've never seen. I've heard stories though. I used to think I'd invite myself along with the Az Bratt Pack or BTG for some rougher stuff, but I think I'd be in their way so I haven't bothered. I'd like to make my rig just a bit more capable and get a winch before I impose myself on the hardcore guys. I really need to replace the rockers, move the cat, do some relatively minor suspension mods like longer shocks, stuff some 37's under it (and regear to 5.29's), and finish my front bumper before I tackle stuff like your post #54. I think it's doable though. I keep looking at my truck and trying to envision a 0 degree departure- you'd have to bob it I'd think. You might get down to around 30 degrees if you tucked the bumper completely under the tailgate and replaced the lower quarters with some protection. Not covered- you'd have to cut them out I would think. I'm not sure how difficult it would be to lift the drivetrain if you did a body lift, but that would probably fix any issues with dragging the belly if it's possible.

I'm still somewhat of a n00b to wheeling- my 80 is more capable than it's driver, and it always suprises me with what it does with ease. I can't remember taking a strap, although it may have happened to drag a diff over something. It has never broken anything. It has never lacked power offroad with true 35" tires and stock 4.1? gearing. It's major handicap is the unbalanced suspension- the front doesn't really articulate until the rear is fully flexed, and even then not much. I imagine a 3 link setup would fix that.

I think Slee is saying the 80 is limited as to what trails it can run because of it's size and weight, and you don't need to do much to it to make it fully capable of running any trail it can fit on. I don't think he read this thread and fully understood just how far you're willing to go to get what you want, so he gave you some of the standard answers he gives to people asking about building up the 80 series. That's why I linked this thread in the one on the 80 board, hoping he might get interested and really think the project out. Or I might have that wrong. Personally, I think the 80 would be a good base for a family rock crawler if you're willing to go to some lengths- and it sounds like you are going to go to those lengths no matter what the base vehicle is.

-Spike

Spike,
Thanks for your response and for going to the trouble to link this thread to the one in the 80 forum. That was really nice of you to help everyone understand what I apparently wasn't making very clear. I appreciate it.

Obviously, with the trails you listed, you are one of the guys I should be asking about building an 80 for trails around here. If you don't mind, when you go on any of these trails again, could I tag along? It would help me to see what needs to be modified and what can be left alone as well as help me visualize the size and weight thing everyone is talking about.

I think you're right about zero departure (as well as my comments about 0º approach). Unless you're willing to make a custom long arm f/r suspension and seriously stretch the wheelbase to stupid levels, I don't think it's plausible. Not only that, but it'd probably look pretty stupid.

I could definitely see pushing the front axle forward 6" (with the right steering box) and moving the rear back close to the same amount. It wouldn't give a true 0º, but it would improve your approach and departure a lot.

I thought really hard about bobbing my project (actually, I was thinking more along the lines of cutting the roof off behind the second row of seats, sheetmetalling the passenger area back in along with a window and making a very small truck bed behind the 2nd row....and then bobbing that bed). But, how practical is that if you're trying to go on a camping trip? You end up with a bunch of s*** on the roof b/c you don't have any storage.

I think bobbing an 80 would be a great idea if you wanted to make it your 'ultimate' trail rig. But it'd be a personal preference thing and have to suit your exact needs. For me, it just doesn't right now.

I hesitate to make these next comments, but I just want to warn you.

IMO (and take it FWIW), most of the AZ Bratt Pack are a bunch of morons. Sure, there are some great guys in the club (Damien is one, so's Justin) but there are also a lot of yahoos in underequipped vehicles, that drink on the trail, dump trash, break down at every obstacle and generally cause problems (true with some members of any club, but I seem to have seen it more in that club than most others). Just make sure the people you go with you know....I wouldn't just show up for one of their runs where they have the open invite. I've seen them destroy some people's rigs....and that may just be a difference in trail/vehicle philosophy, but I assume most people mind body damage...many of them do not.

As for BTG.....great guys. I got a few of them started in rockcrawling about 8 years ago and they have far surpassed me since. Just being honest, but I highly doubt your 80 (no matter how built you make it) will be able to keep up unless you completely shed yourself of the body. They are now running what can only be called "buggy only" type trails. I'm not even willing to go on those runs yet, just b/c I know the amount of damage that occurs on built buggies and I don't wanna tear mine up that bad to say I've run X trail.

All that said, you may check out AZ Undertakers or AZ Rockcrawlers if you want to do some harder runs. I don't know a lot of the Undertakers (a lot of them are also BTG) but I do know a few. They are pretty non-chalant about body damage too....so careful who you trust to spot ya. Arizona Rockcrawlers was a club I belonged to and helped found a number of years back.....great people although now everyone is in "build" mode so going on a run with them can be difficult. They cannot be beat with respect to keeping your vehicle as nice as you want to. There are some wonderful people in the club and there are some EXTREMELY skilled people in the club too in terms of fabrication. If you get a chance to run with them, take them up on it.....they'll give you an honest assessment of you capability to do a trail without being pricks about it.

As for all that.....If you want to try some of the harder trails, I'd be more than willing to go along with you, show you the way, spot and just generally help you complete it. I tend to run in smaller groups now....we keep the size down to 3-4 vehicles alot which is nice in terms of being able to complete the trail a little more quickly. The offer is always open...just ask.

Thanks for all your help and hope my advice about clubs isn't out of line.

Take care,
Sean

 

[-Spike-]

The things I still don't know (and no one has been able to answer so far) is what a trail 80 weighs.

Stock 80 is right about 5,000 pounds empty. It's generally thought that a well armored and loaded-for-trail 80 runs around 6,000 pounds. Obviously every truck is different.

-Spike

 

[Sean K.]

Stock 80 is right about 5,000 pounds empty. It's generally thought that a well armored and loaded-for-trail 80 runs around 6,000 pounds. Obviously every truck is different.

-Spike

See, to me, that's a little portly, but totally within reason. As I mentioned earlier.....alot of my buddies old Jeeps weighed about 6 with all their gear.

I dunno....I still think it's doable in an 80....more expensive than a Runner, but still doable.

Sean

 

[-Spike-]

Thanks for all your help and hope my advice about clubs isn't out of line.

Take care,
Sean

Actually, it's much appreciated. I've met a couple of the BTG guys and they were nice guys. I figured they were in a whole different vehicle class, which is why I haven't tried to join any runs with them. One of the guys, who freelances for some magazines, ran a few trails with a Nissan group I run with- can't remember his name. He rode along, taking pics and helping with the spotting, having a good time. I never would have known he was a buggy guy with BTG without asking- he never acted like our 'easy' runs were boring. I will definitely check out AZ Rockcrawlers when I get my rig to the point I think it should be at to run 4+ trails. I'd really like to take you up on your offer on some more difficult trails- perhaps as a ride-along at first if possible, to get an idea of 'more difficult' without having to find out at the end of a 1/4 mile tight wash, staring at a rock wall with two black tracks going up it. I'm running Saturday out in the Sycamore Creek area with CSC if you'd be interested in joining us, either in your rig or ride with me. Seems like you might have mentioned a run you were doing that day, but if not, come on out.

-Spike

 

[Sean K.]

My guess would the be the guy was Jay Kopyczinski (sp?). He shoots lots of features for 4wd and Sport Utility Magazine as well as some others. Was he mid to late 40's, skinny, probably about 5'-9" or so? Jay's a super nice guy. He's kinda been putting the extreme stuff on the back burner. He's got a buggy, but it's fairly basic....leaf springs, Toy axles...pretty much a bodyless Toy truck.

Definitely let me know if you wanna just do a ride along or something. I'll post up when I have an open seat (would've had one today if my electrical system wasn't FUBAR).

Love you join you Saturday, but I'm actually pushing today's trails back to tomorrow. You're more than welcome to come along if you want. We could push H2H to another day and run like AA and/or Upper Ajax instead if you wanna drive. As long as you have a decent skid for your underbelly, I can winch you up over the falls. I'd offer you a spare seat....but I'm not sure if everyone's are taken....I only know mine is.


***EDIT** hmmm....now that I think of it, there's a few places on AA that would really eat into your rocker panel under the doors. Probably better get some sliders before trying that one....like I said though, we could downgrade to something a little easier, but you've already done most of those out in FJ.
Sean

 

[-Spike-]

Yep, it was Jay. He did a write-up for the (Nissan) Arizona Run VI last year. Funny, I was trying to remember his name, and I'm thinking 'J, it started with a J- John, Jim, Jeff? No...'

We'll get together sometime for a run or two. Keep an eye here in the CSC forum and if you see something you'd be interested in, I'm usually running empty although the wife and daughter have been tagging along occasionally. Let me know if something comes up that you have an empty seat for, or a relatively (in the buggy world) mild trail that you think I could join in for in my rig.

-Spike

 

[BMAN]

You guys should totally kiss!

 

[Sean K.]

You guys should totally kiss!

Instead of us kissing, how 'bout you just blow me!

Sean

 

[goodtimes]

You said, "I think you are going to have a difficult time getting an 80 to perform to the level your toyota did".

You really think so? I don't know....the old Toy worked good, but after driving my buggy around the little bit that I have, I can now see so much room for improvement in that old truck.....stuff I'd be doing on the next project.

Sean

In the context of running the same trails, yes. Size kills the 80. Your track width vs body width on the toyota was much greater than on an 80. You could probably get the chassis and even the drivetrain to work, but I think finding room to stuff a 37" tire way up into the fenders is going to be problematic....so are those 3 acres of sheet metal.

Spike--have you considered running a light anti-sway bar on the rear of your 80 to help get the front axle to work?

 

[offroader5]

Stock 80 is right about 5,000 pounds empty. It's generally thought that a well armored and loaded-for-trail 80 runs around 6,000 pounds. Obviously every truck is different.

-Spike

Do they only weight that much? I was under the impression by how everyone talked about them that they were way heavier. My XJ (which I haven't actually weighed yet) is around 4500 or so..and that is before I get these full width heavier axles under it running 37's or 38's. Interesting

 

[-Spike-]

...finding room to stuff a 37" tire way up into the fenders is going to be problematic....so are those 3 acres of sheet metal.

Spike--have you considered running a light anti-sway bar on the rear of your 80 to help get the front axle to work?

37's can be made to stuff without too much problem. The sheet metal, well, it gives.

I run the stock sway bar in the rear, and none up front. The rear just flexes well, while the front doesn't. I'm working on some ideas, and I've already gotten it to flex a bit more than it did. My particular application probably needs different springs, but we'll see how it does when I finish the bumper and hang a 100 pound winch on the receiver.

-Spike

 

[ShottsUZJ100]

In the context of running the same trails, yes. Size kills the 80. Your track width vs body width on the toyota was much greater than on an 80. You could probably get the chassis and even the drivetrain to work, but I think finding room to stuff a 37" tire way up into the fenders is going to be problematic....so are those 3 acres of sheet metal.

Spike--have you considered running a light anti-sway bar on the rear of your 80 to help get the front axle to work?

I used to run my '93 with no sways. Luvved it! Stayed more level, didn't flop around, but no more flex.....though it flexed "easier" on the moderate stuff.

 

[Project FJ80]

If you can wait about .. ohh.. i donno.. sometime with in the next six months. My 80 should be done, and capable of doing thoes trails.

 

[Sean K.]

If you can wait about .. ohh.. i donno.. sometime with in the next six months. My 80 should be done, and capable of doing thoes trails.

Sounds impressive! Can't wait to see it done. Definitely contact me when you're ready.

Sean

 

[Brian Macgyver]

Hey...quick question about the floating rear axle on an 80. What diameter and spline count are they?

The reason I ask: Land Rover guys always brag about their FF rear axles. Yet I've seen two broken and haven't wheeled with very many of them. The reason: (IMO of course) the thing's about 1" diameter. It seriously looks like a fat pencil. I'd guess the Toyota is their standard 1.31" (1 5/16") 30 spline or larger but would be interested to know.

Sean

Be careful what you say! Land Cruisers are known to be sensitive. I have seen passengers ejected from the passenger seat simply for uttering the insulting words "Jeep" or "Land Rover" while riding. LC owners are not responsible for the reactions of trucks that are so insulted. Do not insult these trucks while riding in one! A LC is a different animal, and cannot be grouped with the rest of the carrion.