Save Tellico - Official Thread

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I understand where you are coming from "juice" and totally agree. What I am saying here is we need to put the ball in their court to find out exactly what it would take to keep the trails open. I do not think they could tell us. I do not think they have a plan of remedy...I think they are just stirring up trouble. If they are forced to provide the remedy they will be giving us a guideline for a stronger defense. Again, I do not think they have a remedy and if not that is when we hire a legal team to dismiss the suit which has no grounds.
As I stated in the beginning, I will support the effort regardless of the strategy.
 
TU has at the stake holders meeting and in press releases attempted to come across as only being interested in insuring clean water, but in previous private meetings their members have stated that they believe that this is prime trout waters and that only trout fishermen should have access.
The problem with TU and other anti access groups is no mater what fancy words and noble ideals their attorneys have taught them to say their only acceptable remedy is to stop access to the area.
 
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I understand where you are coming from "juice" and totally agree. What I am saying here is we need to put the ball in their court to find out exactly what it would take to keep the trails open. I do not think they could tell us. I do not think they have a plan of remedy...I think they are just stirring up trouble. If they are forced to provide the remedy they will be giving us a guideline for a stronger defense. Again, I do not think they have a remedy and if not that is when we hire a legal team to dismiss the suit which has no grounds.
As I stated in the beginning, I will support the effort regardless of the strategy.

I hear ya but it looks like where we are heading is for closures. The FS is planning on temp closures which often mean permanent closures - check w/ k9 on this. Sometimes lack of data is not enough to stop closures. This puts us in a position where lawyers have to be involved. Their plan of rememdy is closures which is the track we are currently on...I agree that they need data but from my professional experience lack of data does not always halt closures or other action from govenrment regulatory agencies.
 
Roger is right here. The only ending to this TU will accept is CLOSURE. Believe me, the hug fest and what not has already been tried. We have had stakeholder meetings to build concensus for 9 LONG YEARS, and look where we are now.

Archie, you are right about the approach when the problem is at the beginning. Getting everyone together to discuss mutually beneficial alternatives is ALWAYS the preferred method. However, we are WAY past that point now.

I am not suggesting that we fight fire with fire, just that we make a fire break and stand our ground. TU has an agenda. They are bullying the Forest Service with their large membership and their "green" image. Make no mistake, their intention is closure. Plain and simple.

So, that being said, the lawyers are in it. The TU folks have positioned themselves to file suit against the Forest Service, and the Forest Service is caving to their demands. It's now or never that we comment, raise money, keep working on the trails, and stick together to make sure that everyone knows that we as a community are responsible in what we do and want to keep the area open for our use and for future generations.

How's that for a speech? :)
 
Fire

A backing fire would only throw a little smoke at them. Lets pull our fire up both flanks. Making sure we pull into the wind. Nice hot fire, kill most hardwoods if done right and really get the point across.

Mike Eagan
 
Thanks everyone (and I am sincere) for clarifying the situation to me and hopefully others. The key issue I was looking for was that it has in fact come to the only resolve/remedy being closure. So...what is the single most important need right now so that I can get to work on it? By the way, realizing the sensitivity of certain aspects of this situation if you care to pm please feel free.
 
k9 can give the official word but for the time being volunteer for trail maintenance, if you can't volunteer make a contribution to STLCA, write letters to the powers that be (look up in the thread - I think something is posted there). Thanks for the help. :cheers:
 
k9 can give the official word but for the time being volunteer for trail maintenance, if you can't volunteer make a contribution to STLCA, write letters to the powers that be (look up in the thread - I think something is posted there). Thanks for the help. :cheers:

Almost right Steve! Here are 3 things you and anyone else can do:

1) Write a letter commenting on the proposed action.
2) Give money to SFWDA (www.sfwda.org) earmarked for Tellico
3) Volunteer with Rob and Roger at Tellico on trail work

Thanks y'all!
 
Now What?

I have had a couple of folks ask me what happened with the deadline being the 17th. Many folks are asking if the trails are closed and what to do now. I thought I would go ahead and walk through some next steps and what could potentially happen now.

The 17th was ONLY a deadline for public comment on the proposed Supervisor's Orders. Nothing actually "happens" on that day. The FS will now compile all the comments and read them. The acting district ranger (who is NOT Tina Tilley anymore) said that they will form a team to evaluate the comments.

Once that is done, they will do something. Not sure what, to be honest. The ball is in their court. They could do nothing...they could close trails...they could just do some analysis. We just don't know.

That being said, we will be ready for their decision whatever that is. If it's trail closure, we will be ready to act. If it's not and they want our cooperation, we'll be there for them and willing to help.

So folks, we are in a waiting game. But we can't let up on the pressure to make sure that everyone knows that we will continue to push to make sure that Tellico remains open. Now more than ever we need to be smart about how we conduct ourselves out there. Be careful, tread lightly, clean up the area and take care of it as if it was your own. Because right now it is your own, and someone it trying to take it from you!
 
Thanks Heather,
FOR EVERYTHING! I guess we are really at the beginning and now is when we need to be strong, willing, and committed to keeping the trails open. I will do everything I can to help in any way and rally those down here in Florida to help as well. Thanks for keeping the loop open.
 
from the Georgia TORRA site http://www.ttora.com/forum/showthread.php?t=80876&page=2
Letter1.jpg
Letter2.jpg
 
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Thanks for posting that John.
 
I hate to say this, but it's probably all for nothing. There is no REAL reason to close Tellico or ANY other area of forest or public land where people wheel.

What it boils down to is a root issue. The government is trying to take away everything from the people of the United States. Freedom is slipping away. Now the President is signing documents which creates a North American Union WITHOUT a vote from the people, or the approval of Congress. Decisions are being made without us, our government is out of control and we are spinning into a situation that will only end in blood shed in the end. The idea of a "New World Order" and the Bilderberger organization is not a myth, it is real and it is happening today. The American dollar is disintigrating, and the "Amero" is on the way...

In the end, people better just make up their mind whether they are gonna bend over and take it, or stand up and give it. Sorry to say, but that's how it's gonna turn out.

PS- Heather you have done a great job of trying to do this the right way and you are to be commended.
 
Thanks Heather,
FOR EVERYTHING! I guess we are really at the beginning and now is when we need to be strong, willing, and committed to keeping the trails open. I will do everything I can to help in any way and rally those down here in Florida to help as well. Thanks for keeping the loop open.

Archie, you have been a great help and thank you so much for all your well thought out and researched letters! Your professionalism and insight will be hard for the USFS to ignore!

Thanks for posting that John.

X2...that letter is HUGE!!!

I hate to say this, but it's probably all for nothing. There is no REAL reason to close Tellico or ANY other area of forest or public land where people wheel.

What it boils down to is a root issue. The government is trying to take away everything from the people of the United States. Freedom is slipping away. Now the President is signing documents which creates a North American Union WITHOUT a vote from the people, or the approval of Congress. Decisions are being made without us, our government is out of control and we are spinning into a situation that will only end in blood shed in the end. The idea of a "New World Order" and the Bilderberger organization is not a myth, it is real and it is happening today. The American dollar is disintigrating, and the "Amero" is on the way...

In the end, people better just make up their mind whether they are gonna bend over and take it, or stand up and give it. Sorry to say, but that's how it's gonna turn out.

PS- Heather you have done a great job of trying to do this the right way and you are to be commended.

Well, thanks for the commendation. But, listen, you are entitled to your opinion, as we all are. But to be honest with you, this isn't about a government conspiracy to close areas to access, it's about the government not having a backbone to stand up to a sportsman's group turned environmental activist. We have an ENORMOUS amount of effort from a lot of people going into this, and rogue "the world is ending and we are never going to be allowed on public land again" kind of statements don't help.
 
Here's something from TU's website.Some of their problem is that they think that the BMP's have been maintained and just don't work. They don't realize that the management plan hasn't been followed since it was written on 2000.They also think that the funding for the maint. is there. Bill has done what he can with what he has been given, but I can't see where our user fees are coming back to the area fully.
Where they say required by law and exceeding the Forest Service plans they are really really stretching the interpretation of the law, and the road density rules are for roads not trails in an OHV area.
:shotts:
Thank you to all our online activists who submitted comments on behalf of TU. We will post updates to this page on the Tellico action item as they become available.

The Forest Service requested comments on two proposals under consideration to address water quality problems caused by an off-road vehicle area in the headwaters of the Tellico River, an important brook trout watershed. The proposals, which include temporarily closing 3 miles of the 38 mile trail system and closing the entire trail system in the winter months, are necessary, but they are not enough. Trout populations in the Tellico River are in trouble and more substantial action is needed now to prevent a potential population crash. Hundreds of TU members took a few minutes to submit a comment letter supporting the proposed action, and urging the Forest Service to take more decisive action to address water quality problems by also closing and rerouting trail segments within 100 feet of mountain streams.
The comment period ended October 17, 2007.
Relevant Documents
• 09/17/07 Forest Service letter calling for comments
• 06/28/07 Notice of intent to commence civil action against Forest Service for violations of Clean Water Act
• TU's draft of points that should be made in comment letters
Why We Care
• The Eastern Brook Trout Joint Venture has identified the headwaters of the Tellico River as the most significant intact population of native southern appalachian brook trout in western North Carolina.
• Water quality has been declining in the Tellico River and its tributaries for years as a result of muddy runoff from the inadequately maintained trail system within the Tellico ORV area. These streams receive approximately 500 to 1000 times more sediment than reference streams just outside the trail system.
• Because of decades of overuse and inadequate management, the trout populations in the Tellico River are crashing. NCWRC trout monitoring data confirms that populations in the Tellico River at the base of the ORV trail system are not reproducing successfully. Unless the Forest Service takes substantial action now, this important trout fishery may be lost.
• The current proposal to close trails 7, 9 and lower 2 is necessary and required by law. The Forest Service already has identified these trails as the worst contributors to sediment in the stream. Each of these trails is deeply entrenched from OHV use and erosion. And best management practices have proven ineffective even when properly maintained. The current proposal to close them for one year is a necessary start, but will not be sufficient. The only option is to close them permanently and reroute trails.
• In addition, the proposal to close the entire system during the rainy winter months is urgently needed and should be finalized in time to take effect this winter. The Tellico ORV area is the only OHV trail system in the National Forests in North Carolina that remains open in the winter months. The Wayehutta ATV system, the Brown Mountain ORV Area and the Uwharrie ORV Area all close in the winter to protect water quality. Winter closure will enable the Forest Service to maximize the effectiveness of its limited maintenance budget for the Tellico ORV trail system. By reducing overall annual usage and eliminating usage in the most damaging months, winter closure will help to reduce the significant water quality degredation and resource damage caused by the existing Tellico ORV system.
• The current proposals fail to address a substantial cause of water quality problems in the Tellico River: approximately 6 miles of trail located within 100 feet of mountain trout streams. Like the deep trenches on trails 2, 7 and 9, these trail segments are improperly located such that best management practices, even when maintained, do not protect water quality. These trail segments must be closed to ORV traffic now, be evaluated, and permanently stabilized or rerouted away from streams.
• These immediate closures are necessary to protect water quality and they are required to bring the Forest Service closer into compliance with the requirements of its own forest plan. The current trail system exceeds by 200% the maximum density of trails allowed by the existing forest plan. Decades of experience have proven that the Forest Service, even when assisted by volunteer user groups and significant donated funding, is unable to maintain the 38 mile trail system. The Forest Service must reduce the trail system to a level it can manage and maintain. For these reasons, the closures under consideration are needed and must be expanded to include all trail segments within 100 feet of streams.
 
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Roger why could they not make trail 1 a road? Would this not solve a lot of the problems?
Trail 1 is a FS road with a road number. TU is saying that the FS has rules on how many roads you can have in an area (we are not sure what rule they are refering to is and if it applies) and they are saying that the Tellico trails have such heavy usage that the are roads and not trails so the come under the road rules.
 
FYI folks. The waiting game is about done. We (SFWDA) are working on a meeting time with USFS, TU, SELC, SFWDA and our UFWDA Lawyer. So far the meeting is targeted to happen the week of Thanksgiving. We don't know what the meeting will accomplish, but we hope to have a clearer understanding of where the USFS' head is with regard to the proposed Supervisor's Orders they put out for comment last month.

The one thing I do know is that we had a magnificent show of support from the offroad community in the form of letters to the USFS. You are all to be commended and if I could I'd buy each of you a beer for your effort. But given the number of comments they received, I can't afford it!

I'll update the thread here when I know more.
 

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