RTH - Starter Keeps running after key off/out. Have to disconnect battery... (1 Viewer)

[cboyd]

Hi mudders - Need some RTH!

I spent the first really nice spring day replacing the exhaust system on my 100 with a shiny new Borla SS system, thanks to the hints from others here on that! (I'll update that thread after I solve this!)

As I was pulling her into the workshop to do said exhaust, when I went to shut the truck off, I noticed that the starter kept trying to start the truck in the ACC and, OFF positions and even with the key out! I've searched a lot of the threads here, but most talk about the contacts causing intermittent starting issues on engage, but not this. Google threads indicated it could be a stuck solenoid. so looking at a couple of threads here, I tried the following things:

1) Checked the Starter Relay - removed and tried to reconnect the batter - starter engaged and tried to start the truck
2) Pulled the Starter and ACC Relay's - same effect.
3) Exercised the ignition key cylinder a few times to make sure there wasn't an issue there, but i'm not sure this really can show much
4) looking at the FSM, ST-4 show the solenoid is mounted on the starter itself, so no way to really check it.

Trying to figure out how this starter is getting power with the relays removed?!? Looking at the FSM wiring diagram, it shows that the Starter Relay engages the Magnetic switch (solenoid) in the starter and there is a path there from the positive side directly to ground - but basically directly through the starter switch. I'm guessing that is how it's getting continuous continuity to run. Google shows this happens on often Fords, but nothing showing on Toyota... here or on T4R, or Tundra forums.

I can start the truck by turning the key to ON and reconnecting the battery - starts fine, but i can hear a grind and think the starter is still engaged to the flywheel, so I dont want to drive it (or even rev it) for fear of causing the pinion to fuse, or damaging the alternator!

Anyone seen this before? thoughts to try? confirmation on my theory that a stuck solenoid can cause this on a Toyota?

 

[nissanh]

A stuck solenoid makes the power to the starter motor.

When you turn the ignition key to start position all you are doing is magnetising the solenoid: The plunger pulls in and completing the circuit to power the starter motor.

Try this: Get a long wooden pole and try to tap the starter solenoid and see the result.

You can recondion the starter solenoid. The worn starter contacts probably causing the plunger to be engaged at all times.

Don't run the engine with starter engaged.

 

[cboyd]

A stuck solenoid makes the power to the starter motor.

When you turn the ignition key to start position all you are doing is magnetising the solenoid: The plunger pulls in and completing the circuit to power the starter motor.

Try this: Get a long wooden pole and try to tap the starter solenoid and see the result.

You can recondion the starter solenoid. The worn starter contacts probably causing the plunger to be engaged at all times.

Don't run the engine with starter engaged.

Assuming you mean with the engine shroud off, and a stick down through the gaps In the manifold?

also, thought about the contacts, as they are well know to be a problem. Just hadn’t thought we’d see it in a stuck condition, only marginal, or not at all.

 

[nissanh]

That is called a beauty cover...yes try it. I removed the beauty cover soon after I bought the LC.

 

[Tres Toys]

I had the same issue on our 2000 LX. The starter contacts spot welded themselves together. This may have been from the contacts wearing unevenly and creating a gap on one side that eventually caused an arc that fused them together. If the starter was more accessible a good whack might have been able to break them loose. It ended up costing me a short tow. The aggravating thing was that none of the local dealerships had just the replacement starter contacts in stock at the time.
Best of luck!

 

[cboyd]

Thanks all. I’ll give the tap a try in the morning.. else a short tow is probably in order. With 250k on the clock a new starter is in my future either way.

 

[nissanh]

Thanks all. I’ll give the tap a try in the morning.. else a short tow is probably in order. With 250k on the clock a new starter is in my future either way.

If the problem is at the starter, don't get an aftermarket starter! Install new starter kit (plunger and two contacts) $15 max with free shipping. An auto electrical shop in El Paso TX sells (on ebay) these kits (seller name is starter1charge (one of his AD on ebay "Toyota STARTER REPAIR REBUILD KIT SOLENOID CONTACT & PLUNGER SET COROLLA 4RUNNER " Give your make and model and he will get you the correct part.

There are tons ov videos on youtube about changing these contacts

 

[cboyd]

Well the broomstick attempt didn’t work. Or I didn’t get very good purchase on the starter solenoid itself. Thanks for all the help but looks like a new starter is in my future.

I rarely put non-OEM parts on this rig. Always trying to get OEM or better than OEM aftermarket for it. I’ll keep the existing one to rebuild it unless there’s a wicked core charge.

Anybody have an estimate on how many banana job this is?

 

[2001LC]

Sounds like you'll be moving starter job to front of the list. Start is a 3 banana PITA. One key is to clean top of engine between intake manifold to heads, really really well. You do not want sand dropping into intake ports as you pull intake manifold.

 

[cboyd]

Sounds like you'll be move starter job to front of the list. Start is a 3 banana PITA. One key is to clean top of engine between intake manifold to heads, really really well. You do not want sand dropping into intake ports as you pull intake manifold.

Well, since it was stuck in the workshop, I finished the exhaust project... it’s dead in the water now, so you’re right - it’s now front a center!

 

[2001LC]

Well, since it was stuck in the workshop, I finished the exhaust project... it’s dead in the water now, so you’re right - it’s now front a center!

You'll need intake manifold gaskets at minimum. I like water pipe O-ring, throttle body (1) and water bypass joint (4) gaskets also. Often the wire housing block break so many need some. Best at this point is, tear it down then build parts list.

 

[Travis 76]

Same thing happened on my ‘94. Luckily is was an easy swap out. Had to do it in the hospital parking lot when my baby was a day old. Cruiser got my wife to the hospital, went to start it the next day and same problem. I had to disconnect the battery to shut off the starter.

 

[cboyd]

well, IMO, there are very few slits in the armor of the venerable 100 series, but I'd have to say this is one of them... sadly something you could not do easily in a parking lot (unless you 100% had to out very remote with little options). I dare say this should be added to the 180k Service list when doing the 2nd TB. Glad it happened in my driveway and not a 2 days drive deep into the North Maine Woods!

i saw another YT video of replacement on a '98 100 and he had almost the same mileage to me (251k). In his video he "ran down to auto zone" which made me cringe. something so difficult to get to should be 100% MisterT.

 

[nissanh]

Don't you also get early warnings for failing starter contacts like just click and no start? situation is worst in winter than summer

 

[cboyd]

i had no warnings... no fail to starts, no clicks, clacks... strong starts every time. which is why it caught me off-guard.

 

[nissanh]

i had no warnings... no fail to starts, no clicks, clacks... strong starts every time. which is why it caught me off-guard.

Wow.... do you happen to have the part numbers for two contacts and the plunger or some pictures, can we please see/know it? I will keep a set handy just in case. All my toyota vehicles did the click in winter and no clicks in summer informed me of a soon to fail starter so I never got stranded. But glad I got to know this ahead of time. LC seems scary! I guess the Corolla, Hilux and 4Runner I have seems to be the MOST reliable.

 

[cboyd]

i wouldn't hesitate to drive this thing anywhere... it's very reliable. but Preventative Maintenance is key. I'm just saying this should be looked into well before 250k. Many guys I roll with carry spare contacts, as this is a known weakness. in my case, if it's the solenoid itself, it would be field-fatal, unless you had a whole starter with you. we'll see what the post-mortem brings.

Here's the picture from the FSM on the whole starter - but without P/N.
Pictures with P/N are here::

STARTER. 1999 Toyota Land Cruiser 4.7L V8 AT | Toyota Parts Center Online

1999 Toyota Land Cruiser 4.7L V8 AT STARTER

parts.toyota.com

 

[2001LC]

Interesting I was just speaking with Denso tech on issue of starter "hang up". I've one Denso fresh rebuilt, that auto crank seems to hang up just a tad, if I don't release key the moment I turn it. I called Denso to ask, if they've seen this and what it is. They said they have seen where contact welds to plunger, and start will keep running. Tech said, It happens with to low voltage during start. That is not issue I'm seeing, as my contact do release, just start hangs a bit. But, I found interesting that Denso pointed to low voltage.

Can we R&R a starter in the field, yes:
It is a PITA. But I have done at my curb in one that was dead. The weather was nice and I was able to clean very well before I got started. The issue with cleaning with water: Is water may get into intake ports. If that happens, the job needs done is 2 weeks or less. Or water will rust the cylinder walls and and valve guilds. Then engine will likely smoke within 20K miles. But to do in the field, 2 hours from nowhere even with the tools on hand. Well good if top of engine is always keep cleaned.

9 out of 10 times these starter give early warning. Recognizing signs can be difficult.

I'd also make mention; Engine that have long cranks to start, are hard on starter. Also having high resistance in wiring to any motor is damaging.

Keeping battery post & clamps clean and greased, is very important for many reasons.

I clean all batteries and clamps with baking soda, to start with. Baking soda neutralizes acid, so we don't damage parts around and below battery tray. Then I clean off the oxidation.

Baking soda and water

 

[cboyd]

Interesting I was just speaking with Denso tech on issue of starter "hang up". I've one Denso fresh rebuilt, that auto crank seems to hang up just a tad, if I don't release key the moment I turn it. I called Denso to ask, if they seen this and what it is. They said they have seen where contact welds to plunger, and start will keep running. Tech said, It happens with to low voltage during start. That is not issue I'm seeing, as my contact do release, just start hangs a bit. But, I found interesting that Denso pointed to low voltage.

actually that is interesting - and maybe related to what has happened here. as with the current situation around COVID, I had not driven the truck in awhile, though I did check the voltage prior to moving it to the workshop -- it was seen to be in the low 12's. I had shut down the truck but then realized that I had to reposition it slightly and went to restart - that's when i heard some grinding and immediately shut it down -- and that's when it kept running key off/out. so the 2nd start might have been at an even lower voltage - and aligns with what you mention Denso said... something definately to think about.

 

[cboyd]

Ended up being fused contacts in the magnetic switch. I’m going to say it was a combo of the low voltage situation and 251k miles.

Due to timing with weather and Work related items, i ended up letting my local dealer take this project on. They needed the business and I was able to negotiate the price a bit along with a few other things that have been nagging on the rig. Brand new OEM starter on board!

all good in the hood! Now I can hear that pretty new exhaust sound!

thanks all for the help!