RPM drop to idle during downshift, loss of power when passing, extremely intermittent (1 Viewer)

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate
links, including eBay, Amazon, Skimlinks, and others.

Joined
Jul 12, 2014
Threads
7
Messages
214
Location
Inland Empire, CA
Website
www.ultimateyota.com
05 LX470, 220k miles, no CEL, stored or pending codes.

I have had this issue for about a year now. It is slowing getting worse. I have zero idea where to go next, so here I am.

The first symptoms started when accelerating from a stop sign, usually on an uphill bit of road. I would get about halfway through the intersection, then lose power momentarily. Power would be restored after a second or two, usually with a little kick, and I would be on my way. It never lasted long enough for me to figure out what was going on, and was usually a surprise. Again, extremely intermittent - usually only once per drive and not every drive. This would happen usually when warm (on my way home from work), and once or twice on a cold engine (a block or two from the house).

The current set of symptoms include the first, but those have become even less frequent. The more common presentation is on the interstate, at about 55mph and downshifting 5-4 (auto) when attempting to pass. As you push your foot more on the accelerator pedal, the truck will try to downshift from 5th to 4th. At this point, the revs will drop to idle (700 rpm ish). A second or two passes (feels like an eternity), and 4th gear will activate, usually slightly violently as your foot is now planted to the floor as a reaction to having no power with the freeway psychos behind you. This does not happen on every down shift; it is extremely unpredictable and seemingly random. It may be happening on other shifts and I have not detected it? No CEL or other dash lights.

Over the last year, I have replaced the following with new, OEM Toyota, except where noted:
  • Fuel Pump
  • Fuel Pump Sock
  • Fuel Filter
  • Mass Air Flow Sensor - Hitachi
  • Throttle Body
  • Air Filter - Wix?
  • Accelerator Pedal - used OEM
I originally thought it was a fuel or air delivery issue (usually failing transmissions will not dump the engine to idle). After having more seat time with it while it acted up and the issue evolving, I began to believe it may be transmission related, delaying a shift for some reason. I drove with techstream recording and have some of the events, but I don't really see anything that is a big indication of what is wrong. I can see the solenoids turning off and on, but the resolution of data doesn't seem to be high enough to find the issue. I have no check engine lights.

Today I dropped the transmission pan and checked the resistance of the solenoids in the valve body. All are within spec. Fluid is a little dark, it was changed about 6 years / 50k miles ago. No obvious signs of issues in the pan. There is what I feel to be a reasonable amount of schmoo on the magnets. I will run the fluid through a paint filter later, but I don't expect to find anything of note. I was hoping to find a solenoid that was out of spec, and I'm a little disappointed I couldn't find a smoking gun. I also inspected the outside of the wiring harness for any potential rodent damage, but found nothing. I was unable to completely remove the harness from the truck for a more throrough inspection. Overall, the wiring harness and connectors look to be in very good condition.

I have found a few threads with possibly similar issues but nothing that has helped. I am at the end of my rope on this one. Thanks for any help you can offer.
 
Visual inspection of connectors at ECU turned up no leads. Other than being slightly dusty (surprising for how much dust this vehicle sees), they look brand new.

I should also note that I have no vibration related symptoms, which to me rules out an intermittent electrical connection. Still waiting on fluid, maybe that will change the behavior.
 
New fluid (and an oil change for good measure), problem persists on a drive around the block.
 
Second paragraph had me suspecting a throttle body issue, though that usually sets a DTC when the electronic throttle glitches.

Third paragraph is really odd. If the clutches were slipping or not fully applying, you'd get an RPM flare. I can't think of any reason, or way, for the engine to just drop to idle like that. Any electrical glitches in the trans solenoids, or their behavior as monitored through input and output speed sensors, should also set a DTC.

Do you think there's any way the engine is actually half way shutting off? I've seen funky intermittent no start or drivability problems traced to the underhood fuse box. Maybe check to make sure everything is seated properly and none of the terminals are s***-boxed.
 
I did a zero point calibration tonight. I will figure out how to disable the traction control and see if that changes anything. Will also inspect the fuse box for any issues. We have another heat wave approaching so it may be another week until I can work on it.

Thanks for the reply 😉
 
Zero point calibration did not solve the issue.

I am not sure how to disable ABS/VSC/TRAC without disabling the brake booster. Maybe just set off an un-related check engine light?
 
What an aggravation ... I chased a very infrequent intermittent fuel issue for a few years. Turned out to be the fuel pressure regulator on the passenger side fuel rail, aft. It was really a last ditch, 'checked everything else' kind of thing. For the cost, it was easy to justify just changing it out. That little thing created symptoms I was sure were related to other parts and even other systems ... Of course, maybe I'm just not that good of a mechanic ...
 
5 years ago I had a apps code pop up and some weird symptoms pop up(not like yours). Per recommendations I replaced the entire throttle body with a new oem one. Fast forward a few years I started getting different symptoms (same as yours). Like you I started to replace other parts thinking they could be the issue. I got a new fuel pump, fuel filters, mafs, spark plugs, coils… non of those fixed the issue. I narrowed it down to what I perceived to be a dead spot it the throttle. About a month ago there was a really good sale on Toyota parts so I bought a new throttle body. Sure enough that fixed all my issues that’s sound very similar to yours…
 
What an aggravation ... I chased a very infrequent intermittent fuel issue for a few years. Turned out to be the fuel pressure regulator on the passenger side fuel rail, aft. It was really a last ditch, 'checked everything else' kind of thing. For the cost, it was easy to justify just changing it out. That little thing created symptoms I was sure were related to other parts and even other systems ... Of course, maybe I'm just not that good of a mechanic ...
I think I'll buy one just for fun. At 220k, it couldn't hurt.
5 years ago I had a apps code pop up and some weird symptoms pop up(not like yours). Per recommendations I replaced the entire throttle body with a new oem one. Fast forward a few years I started getting different symptoms (same as yours). Like you I started to replace other parts thinking they could be the issue. I got a new fuel pump, fuel filters, mafs, spark plugs, coils… non of those fixed the issue. I narrowed it down to what I perceived to be a dead spot it the throttle. About a month ago there was a really good sale on Toyota parts so I bought a new throttle body. Sure enough that fixed all my issues that’s sound very similar to yours…
I've replaced the throttle body with new Toyota and the accelerator pedal with used OEM Toyota. No change.


Drove 50 miles, 25 and 25, and could not reproduce while recording with Techstream.
 
I have an '01 LX470 and I just resolved my loss of power issue today. I've been following this thread for updates, hopefully this may help someone with a similar issue.

My loss of power issue was mainly on the highway when I was merging after the on-ramp or trying to overtake and trying to floor it. The truck would try downshifting but instead the RPMS would go to zero and I would have to let off the gas and feather the accelerator to gain speed back.

I've had this loss of power issue and coolant leak for a couple of months now and it turns out my leaky radiator was to blame. I've been putting off the radiator replacement all summer and finally took it into the shop to get a new one installed. I wasn't too concerned about getting it replaced since I would just top off the overflow with some extra coolant and my dash gauge wasn't showing I was close to overheating. I did not think the loss of power and radiator coolant leak were related, however I was really surprised after getting my truck back today that I had full power when putting the accelerator to the floor.

I was expecting to start with the throttle body replacement to start to diagnose the loss of power, but it turns out I just had perpetually low coolant and probably was dangerously close to blowing my engine up. I found this great explanation from @2001LC talking about the water temp sending unit in the coolant system and why my loss of power issue might be related:

We don't want air in the system, why:

First, too much air in system, and water temp sending unit, will read air temp. Which give false low temp reading on dash water temp gauge. It also gives false info to ECM. Which effects control system, like fuel trims and AT from shifting into high gear. This reading air temp, is the number one reason, the 2UZ engine blows, due to overheating. Since we think all is good based on water temp gauge, when in fact engine is way to hot. Since the low level is resulting in coolant not flowing throughout properly the system, and so, heat can't dissipating through radiator.


Thank you @2001LC and @seanz0rz - good luck to everyone trying to diagnose their loss of power issues.
 
Sound like you really covered a lot, in your search. I'll toss out a bit, to see if "light" come on!.

Water temp gauge is near useless, when coolant level low. Even when coolant system working as it should, they don't move much (LX470 reads/moves more, than LC). When you recorded tech stream date, while driving. You should have seen ECT of 184F to 187F, depending on OAT you may have seen ECT 194F to 197F. If your ECT below 184F (after warm up) it's a sign something not working as is should. Over 200F ECT is also a sign of issue, unless in Sun with OAT over ~110F. But still should not go over ~210F -+.

Have you watched Fuel Trims, ECT & ATf temp. I watch these, just driving around. Using my iphone with a wireless OBD plug in.

You mention "Fluid:. Which I assume you meant AT Fluid. I assume you used Toyota WS ATF, and set level with ATF temp #1 at 97F to 115F.

Have you noticed any drop in power steering revoir fluid level, but no leaks. Sometimes idle up controls valves fail. Which can result in PS (ATF) fluid being sucked into air intake of engine.

Have you confirmed no vacuum leaks.

Have you tested fuel pressure regulator and dampening device on fuel rail.

Loose contacts or vacuum lines, will move with G forces. Have you double and triple checked all battery, ground a hot leads This including at alternator. I've seen where alternator hot lead not properly secures, with blades in capture holes. They then move, result in high arc short. Also crank and cam sensor wires. Crank wire routed wrong, get cut by serp belt. Either wire housing block, where clip not locked in. Can move around causing intermittent short.

Before issue began. What work/service was performed. Always good to look at service history for clues.

Has the been any modification. Like AHC delete or any thing especial where wiring touched/modified..

There is an issue that is somewhat rare. Seems to happen more with AHC delete. Where the ABS kicks in. It so light typically, we don't hear the typically crunch of a caliper braking or feel -G force of braking. But this typically result in a pull on steering wheel. But if rear wheels braking or braking very even at fronts, we may not feel in steering. But brake so hard that the RPMs drop to ~700 form ~3000 RPM, -G force should take you off the seat back, lounging you forward.


I've seen bad coils. That have not failed yet ot kick off a DTC (code) but missing firing. Result in some RPM issues. Misfire can be tricky to detect.
 
Zero point calibration did not solve the issue.

I am not sure how to disable ABS/VSC/TRAC without disabling the brake booster. Maybe just set off an un-related check engine light?
Open hood and disconnect either front wheel speed sensor. That should shut down ABS.
 
Woodwars and 2001LC, why would low coolant levels, and its effect on the temperature sensor, cause a loss of power?
I don't see any explanation for this here.

I also had a loss of power recently. It was brief, no codes an seems fine no.
After finding this thread I recalled that the heater was behaving oddly on that trip. I had to turn it up much higher than normal to get heat.
Based on 2001LC's comments this could be indicative of loss of coolant.
I will do the front end higher diagnostic.
But why would one get a loss of power due to low coolant?

Thanks all for your advice.
 
For clarity, the dignostic I refered to was the link in woodwars post of 2001LC's post describing how to get air out of the coolant system.
 
Fuel mixture, runs rich and A/T will not shift to highest gear. Until specific engine coolant temp (ECT) reached. 174F IIRC.

When coolant low:
Coolant does not reach ECT sensor, so ECM thinks engine not yet to operating temp.
Coolant does not circulate to heat cores. Cabin heat runs warm even cool.
To Low:
Coolant doesn't circular or cool properly. Block and heads overheat. Heads may warp.
 
Fuel mixture, runs rich and A/T will not shift to highest gear. Until specific engine coolant temp (ECT) reached. 174F IIRC.

When coolant low:
Coolant does not reach ECT sensor, so ECM thinks engine not yet to operating temp.
Coolant does not circulate to heat cores. Cabin heat runs warm even cool.
To Low:
Coolant doesn't circular or cool properly. Block and heads overheat. Heads may warp.
Thank you.
 

Users who are viewing this thread

Back
Top Bottom