Rivian R1S vs LC thoughts? (1 Viewer)

[Spock Dingledong]

I’d wager most of us own our 200s partly because they are the most reliable vehicle made by the brand that arguably makes the longest lasting vehicles on the market, so that probably impacts our expectations. But companies like Hyundai have been doing it far longer than Tesla or rivian and even they can’t get some of the basics right.

Saying they won’t hold up well is a pretty fair judgement with things this complex, that companies with half a century of experience are still working to figure out.

Overall we need companies like rivian and Tesla to push the market in a direction companies as conservative as Toyota weren’t going voluntarily. But many of the critiques are justified.

That's a valid view point. And I agree. I've owned.... 7(?) land cruisers? I love them. All with +200k miles.

My perspective is this though, 04UZJ100's critique was only that they wont last.

No insight as to why. When he did offer one it was that the "gas cap" is motorized so you can't open it if its too caked.

That's all he had. Then when I say that's not true due to a manual override; because he can't even bother to get a real point, he shows a single data point (one bad review).

Yes it is early days, and the tech is new, but that was my point, Rivian has made some redundancies that I was impressed with. I had a buddy with a Model S, his door actuators stopped "popping the handle out" so he literally couldn't open the doors. Rivian has pop out handles that are mechanically opperated, to avoid that stupid problem, along with other design choices like that.

I need dashboard buttons though. I am so sick of touch screens. Just returned a 200 series for some touch screen issues (bad wiring harness).

 

[runtherabbit]

The “vegan leather” seats are surely reassuring for Rivian’s rural customers. As are the 21” wheels. The coffee shop crowd must be wailing…

 

[04UZJ100]

The “vegan leather” seats are surely reassuring for Rivian’s rural customers. As are the 21” wheels. The coffee shop crowd must be wailing…

 

[Redbull]

The “vegan leather” seats are surely reassuring for Rivian’s rural customers. As are the 21” wheels. The coffee shop crowd must be wailing…

Vegan leather is such a scam I don’t even know where to begin. You’re gonna charge me the same or more than leather for some plastic? Even if we all wanted to save all the animals etc it better be way cheaper, it’s a shameless cash grab.

I’d love some wool interior or a nice cloth, I’ll deal with the cleanup.

 

[Heckraiser]

I'm pretty sure it's just nice vinyl.

 

[Spock Dingledong]

I'm pretty sure it's just nice vinyl.

Yep. Used to be pleather, whoever makes vinyl rebranded to something that sounds better than it is (or I suppose in this case is somehow offensive?) If every drivers seat in every land cruiser I've owned is any indicator... nothing lasts.

 

[1Maverick]

Yep. Used to be pleather, whoever makes vinyl rebranded to something that sounds better than it is (or I suppose in this case is somehow offensive?) If every drivers seat in every land cruiser I've owned is any indicator... nothing lasts.

Leather is still better for the environment as it’s biodegradable. Pleather, Vegan leather(unless 100% plant based) uses plastics and doesn’t biodegrade. So the end of life use ends up in landfills and breaks down into micro plastics. The biggest impact on the ocean currently is micro plastics. The one thing we need to protect is the dang ocean as we all need it to be healthy. Don’t get me started on Cruise Ships. The EV is absolutely going to wreck our planet at a level we’ve never witnessed and the amount of human trafficking and slave labor is another result of this escalation of EV batteries. Hydrogen fuel cell is the best alternative but it doesn’t carry the weight of the EV lobby.

 

[gluaisrothai]

Would thy exchange thine covered wagon for one of these insensible new horseless carriages?

A. Forsoons! Hay is there where e’er we travel. I’ll not be marooned for want of benzin, for surely they have not solved distribution logistics yet. We don’t have the can technology.

B Has thou seen the panel gaps on the Hispano Suiza?

C City snowflakes

D Fortwith, for I am tired of shoveling horse****, such as the majority of this thread consisteth of in the form of religiously held opinion.

 

[TeCKis300]

The “vegan leather” seats are surely reassuring for Rivian’s rural customers. As are the 21” wheels. The coffee shop crowd must be wailing…

Before getting too caught up in this. Understand it's not even a real differentiator as an EV thing.

Mercedes and other high end marquis advertise vegan leather.

Hitting closer to home, Toyota Softex is vegan too.

It's a giant red herring and marketing thing.

 

[Spock Dingledong]

Leather is still better for the environment as it’s biodegradable. Pleather, Vegan leather(unless 100% plant based) uses plastics and doesn’t biodegrade. So the end of life use ends up in landfills and breaks down into micro plastics. The biggest impact on the ocean currently is micro plastics. The one thing we need to protect is the dang ocean as we all need it to be healthy. Don’t get me started on Cruise Ships. The EV is absolutely going to wreck our planet at a level we’ve never witnessed and the amount of human trafficking and slave labor is another result of this escalation of EV batteries. Hydrogen fuel cell is the best alternative but it doesn’t carry the weight of the EV lobby.

Don't forget chocolate! The majority of cocoa is sourced in africa via both slave and child labor, but... no one gives a s*** because cocoa doesn't have a political agenda. The only reason people give a s*** now is because EV's are controversial.

I'm also not advocating pleather, because TeCKis300 is right, its a red herring.

I also agree about micro-plastics, and ****ing cruise ships are awful, and hope eventually since battery storage is a incredibly useful form of energy storage that we can start space mining sooner than later, but lithium and cobalt mines are just as environmentally unfriendly as any other mine despite a lot of campaigns promoting the opposite (yes they all kind of suck for the environment).

This is a pretty nuanced topic, so like hard stances either way (EV's are net bad, or EV's are perfect) seem disengenous or intellectually dishonest.

Genuinely asking, what is your reasoning behind EV's "Wrecking the planet at a level we've never witnessed"?

 

[HighRanch]

Vegan leather is such a scam I don’t even know where to begin. You’re gonna charge me the same or more than leather for some plastic? Even if we all wanted to save all the animals etc it better be way cheaper, it’s a shameless cash grab.

I’d love some wool interior or a nice cloth, I’ll deal with the cleanup.

Just can't get excited about the Volvo or Range Rover wool seats....they just remind me of an old 1970's polyester suit.

 

[1Maverick]

Before getting too caught up in this. Understand it's not even a real differentiator as an EV thing.

Mercedes and other high end marquis advertise vegan leather.

Hitting closer to home, Toyota Softex is vegan too.

It's a giant red herring and marketing thing.

Very true, I’ve always been against it but most people just want cheap convenience, hence all the Walmarts of the world. The Ri

Don't forget chocolate! The majority of cocoa is sourced in africa via both slave and child labor, but... no one gives a s*** because cocoa doesn't have a political agenda. The only reason people give a s*** now is because EV's are controversial.

I'm also not advocating pleather, because TeCKis300 is right, its a red herring.

I also agree about micro-plastics, and f***ing cruise ships are awful, and hope eventually since battery storage is a incredibly useful form of energy storage that we can start space mining sooner than later, but lithium and cobalt mines are just as environmentally unfriendly as any other mine despite a lot of campaigns promoting the opposite (yes they all kind of suck for the environment).

This is a pretty nuanced topic, so like hard stances either way (EV's are net bad, or EV's are perfect) seem disengenous or intellectually dishonest.

Genuinely asking, what is your reasoning behind EV's "Wrecking the planet at a level we've never witnessed"?

The amount of water it takes to make one battery alone is mind blowing. With the hard push toward EV only, we are just starting witness the horrible effects on the environment. This is just the beginning South America's 'lithium fields' reveal the dark side of electric cars - https://www.euronews.com/green/amp/2022/02/01/south-america-s-lithium-fields-reveal-the-dark-side-of-our-electric-future

Why the Rush to Mine Lithium Could Dry Up the High Andes

The demand for lithium for EV batteries is driving a mining boom in an arid Andes region of Argentina, Chile, and Bolivia, home to half the world’s reserves. Hydrologists are warning the mines could drain vital ecosystems and deprive Indigenous communities of precious water.

e360.yale.edu

 

[TeCKis300]

Very true, I’ve always been against it but most people just want cheap convenience, hence all the Walmarts of the world. The Ri

The amount of water it takes to make one battery alone is mind blowing. With the hard push toward EV only, we are just starting witness the horrible effects on the environment. This is just the beginning South America's 'lithium fields' reveal the dark side of electric cars - https://www.euronews.com/green/amp/2022/02/01/south-america-s-lithium-fields-reveal-the-dark-side-of-our-electric-future

Why the Rush to Mine Lithium Could Dry Up the High Andes

The demand for lithium for EV batteries is driving a mining boom in an arid Andes region of Argentina, Chile, and Bolivia, home to half the world’s reserves. Hydrologists are warning the mines could drain vital ecosystems and deprive Indigenous communities of precious water.

e360.yale.edu

Yeah, no.

None of us on these boards can pretend to have a small environmental footprint. Not when we're consumers of big dollar pigs like the 200-series.

That's not why I buy an EV necessarily. It's a superior architecture that makes for a better car in many respects to ICE cars, and that's enough for me to own an EV. Yet I still own the 200-series because it still does some things that EVs cannot do.

Fortunately many of us here are lucky enough to choose any or all of our own poisons.

 

[ROMR NTX]

We did a follow up based on some of the questions we got

 

[HighRanch]

Very true, I’ve always been against it but most people just want cheap convenience, hence all the Walmarts of the world. The Ri

The amount of water it takes to make one battery alone is mind blowing. With the hard push toward EV only, we are just starting witness the horrible effects on the environment. This is just the beginning South America's 'lithium fields' reveal the dark side of electric cars - https://www.euronews.com/green/amp/2022/02/01/south-america-s-lithium-fields-reveal-the-dark-side-of-our-electric-future

Why the Rush to Mine Lithium Could Dry Up the High Andes

The demand for lithium for EV batteries is driving a mining boom in an arid Andes region of Argentina, Chile, and Bolivia, home to half the world’s reserves. Hydrologists are warning the mines could drain vital ecosystems and deprive Indigenous communities of precious water.

e360.yale.edu

I also saw this interview that states that most of our cobalt (key mineral in lithium batteries) is coming from slave labor in the Congo.
Please tell me this is not really happening.

Joe Rogan podcast guest explains ‘heart-wrenching’ source of electric vehicle, iPhone batteries

 

[1Maverick]

Would thy exchange thine covered wagon for one of these insensible new horseless carriages?

A. Forsoons! Hay is there where e’er we travel. I’ll not be marooned for want of benzin, for surely they have not solved distribution logistics yet. We don’t have the can technology.

B Has thou seen the panel gaps on the Hispano Suiza?

C City snowflakes

D Fortwith, for I am tired of shoveling horses***, such as the majority of this thread consisteth of in the form of religiously held opinion.

Lol, I grew up on a generational ranch amongst farmers and ranchers like my family. We pretty much rode horses every day and rarely went to town. Shoveling horse**** provided jobs. I would absolutely give up city life to become a rancher but unfortunately, the cost of quality land and the amount taxes placed on such land is astronomical for most people to make a decent living anymore.

 

[Spock Dingledong]

I also saw this interview that states that most of our cobalt (key mineral in lithium batteries) is coming from slave labor in the Congo.
Please tell me this is not really happening.

Joe Rogan podcast guest explains ‘heart-wrenching’ source of electric vehicle, iPhone batteries

It's worth noting that there is a slave/child labor problem in africa, in a few industries (a lot actually). This is super nuanced because yes, that is really bad, but it's being pushed as an EV problem by people with an agenda, when really its also a chocolate problem, a Tungsten problem, vanilla, tin, and like... a comical (sad really) amount of consumer goods or things used to make them.

It's like the pleather, it being used is bad, but its not because they are EV's it's because it's almost impossible to do it right (that's not an excuse obviously).

My issue is not with being anti slave labor, its picking one issue and ignoring 100 others just to yell into your own echo chamber. Like why did Joe frame this as an EV problem when he surely knew researching this, that it's not a new thing there, that even components of gas cars are sourced the same way? Because he has an agenda, even if its just based in monetization, he knows he'll get more clicks framing it that way.

 

[HighRanch]

It's worth noting that there is a slave/child labor problem in africa, in a few industries (a lot actually). This is super nuanced because yes, that is really bad, but it's being pushed as an EV problem by people with an agenda, when really its also a chocolate problem, a Tungsten problem, vanilla, tin, and like... a comical (sad really) amount of consumer goods or things used to make them.

It's like the pleather, it being used is bad, but its not because they are EV's it's because it's almost impossible to do it right (that's not an excuse obviously).

My issue is not with being anti slave labor, its picking one issue and ignoring 100 others just to yell into your own echo chamber. Like why did Joe frame this as an EV problem when he surely knew researching this, that it's not a new thing there, that even components of gas cars are sourced the same way? Because he has an agenda, even if its just based in monetization, he knows he'll get more clicks framing it that way.

It is an EV problem because the EV batteries use significantly more than your phone and the (driven by politicians, environmentalists, and big tech) is growing exponentially. Bottom line is slave labor is terrible and many are looking the other way. And we still have this problem we are kicking down the road as to how we will dispose of these used up batteries in 10+ years.

 

[Spock Dingledong]

It is an EV problem because the EV batteries use significantly more than your phone and the (driven by politicians, environmentalists, and big tech) is growing exponentially. Bottom line is slave labor is terrible and many are looking the other way. And we still have this problem we are kicking down the road as to how we will dispose of these used up batteries in 10+ years.

Fair point although I disagree with some of it (batteries were already big business, the child slaves were already working over time), fingers crossed for the space miners. We need space miners and not minors!

 

[gluaisrothai]

Very true, I’ve always been against it but most people just want cheap convenience, hence all the Walmarts of the world. The Ri

The amount of water it takes to make one battery alone is mind blowing. With the hard push toward EV only, we are just starting witness the horrible effects on the environment. This is just the beginning South America's 'lithium fields' reveal the dark side of electric cars - https://www.euronews.com/green/amp/2022/02/01/south-america-s-lithium-fields-reveal-the-dark-side-of-our-electric-future

Why the Rush to Mine Lithium Could Dry Up the High Andes

The demand for lithium for EV batteries is driving a mining boom in an arid Andes region of Argentina, Chile, and Bolivia, home to half the world’s reserves. Hydrologists are warning the mines could drain vital ecosystems and deprive Indigenous communities of precious water.

e360.yale.edu

Interesting article.


Here is some math for ya. 2.2MM liters of water for 1 ton of lithium...there are ~5kg of lithium in a Tesla Model S battery, so that would be 2894 gallons of water for one Model S- just for the lithium.

Now I've owned my S for 8 years/70k miles. Let's assume it was a gas car making 25mpg. At this point I would have burned 2800 gallons of gas. According to Home - https://waterfootprint.org/en/, it takes 3-6 gallons of water to refine one gallon of gas. Let's take the midpoint, 4.5 gallons of water per gallon of gas. That would be 12,600 gallons of water to run a theoretical gas powered Tesla Model S for 70k miles.

The water usage breakeven point for a gas vs electric Model S (just for lithium vs gasoline extraction) is 16,077 miles.


Just something to think about. There are definitely no free lunches in the energy business.

Best etc.

BTW- I have excluded the water cost of generating electricity for the Tesla, and the energy cost of refining the gas....both of which add significantly to the respective environmental footprints....maybe someone else can run that math.