REDARC Manager 30 Remote Mount? Electrical Expertise Needed...

[jaymar]

[Revised]

Turns out the design location for the REDARC Manager 30 is pretty much right next to the aux battery, with the sensor assembly literally on top of the positive terminal. And the 30 is not to be mounted under the hood. Well, damned if I'm gonna park a corrosive-offgassing, 5000A short, 80-pound missile of a battery in the cabin. Just not gonna happen.

Which means the 30 goes in the cab, and the aux battery stays behind the PS headlights.

Now, according to REDARC (if I'm understanding the correctly), the M30's sensor is designed to monitor "true" battery temp and voltage (and current)--and if I mount the M30 itself far from the battery, it will (by implication) not read 'true.' And the shunt cannot be extended.

So, for all the electrical engineers out there (licensed and otherwise): is there a fix for this--a way to get true battery temp / voltage / current readings to a Manager 30 that's mounted, say, 7-15 feet from the battery?

Thanks for any help!

Manual:

https://cdn.intelligencebank.com/au/share/yE9N/zJpl/A9Mk1/original/BMS1230S3-NA+Manual+English

 

[nickolai]

The connection to the unit is canbus, that should be able to be extended with the right cat cable?

 

[LandLocked93]

While I look over the manual, I suppose there's no interest in swapping to a sealed AGM for in-cab use instead?
I use 2 of them in cab.

edit: oh and, dam dawg, the manager 30! That's stepping out well heeled.

 

[LandLocked93]

Turns out the design location for the REDARC Manager 30 is pretty much right next to the aux battery, with the sensor assembly literally on top of the positive terminal. And the 30 is not to be mounted under the hood. Well, damned if I'm gonna park a corrosive-offgassing, 5000A short, 80-pound missile of a battery in the cabin. Just not gonna happen.

Which means the 30 goes in the cab, and the aux battery stays behind the PS headlights.

Now, according to REDARC, the shunt (by which I think they mean the cable from the battery-mounted sensor) that's designed to monitor "true" battery temp, voltage and current, cannot be extended to make it reach a distant battery. Also according to REDARC, there's no way to program in the voltage drop to compensate for distance and achieve a 'true' voltage measurement, and apparently no way to get input from a heat sensor on the battery either.

So, for all the electrical engineers out there (licensed and otherwise): is there a fix for this--a way to get true battery temp / voltage / current readings to a Manager 30 that's mounted, say, 7-10 feet from the battery?

I mean if nothing else, why the h*ll can't you just extend the shunt? Maybe the 30 is preprogrammed for the length of the stock shunt?

Thanks for any help!

Manual:

https://cdn.intelligencebank.com/au/share/yE9N/zJpl/A9Mk1/original/BMS1230S3-NA+Manual+English

Ok, so it appears that if you make the neg terminal cable from the sensor to the aux batt neg terminal the same length as the cable connecting to the pos terminal on the aux batt, that should give you about 6ft from sensor to battery.
Then the canbus cable to the Manager gives you another ... 6ft?
That would be 12ft from the Manager to the aux batt with the sensor in the middle, at 6ft between both.

There is a 32ft canbus cable you can buy (or make, up to 32ft/cat5?) but ultimately that is the most stretch you're gonna get on the other cable given its hardwired nature to the sensor.
It'd be best to run this by RedArc of course.
Curious what you find out.

 

[LandLocked93]

Actually, where are you putting the Manager? In the back?
If so, don't see why you can't get the sensor to the aux batt all in the engine bay.
Then extend the canbus up to 32ft to the Manager.
edit: My mistake, the 32ft extension is for the remote monitor. But they are both canbus so not sure why it wouldn't work for the sensor as well.

 

[jaymar]

Ok, so it appears that if you make the neg terminal cable from the sensor to the aux batt neg terminal the same length as the cable connecting to the pos terminal on the aux batt, that should give you about 6ft from sensor to battery.
Then the canbus cable to the Manager gives you another ... 6ft?
That would be 12ft from the Manager to the aux batt with the sensor in the middle, at 6ft between both.

There is a 32ft canbus cable you can buy (or make, up to 32ft/cat5?) but ultimately that is the most stretch you're gonna get on the other cable given its hardwired nature to the sensor.
It'd be best to run this by RedArc of course.
Curious what you find out.

[Revised]

Not sure I'm following that; the issue is, they say--if I'm understanding correctly--that the sensor should be ON the positive post.

Alternatively, is there a way to mount the M30 to the battery, while shielding it from high heat, moisture and humidity inside the engine compartment? (Those are the reasons they say Don't put it in the engine compartment.)

 

[LandLocked93]

Copy that.

Not sure I'm following that; the issue is, they say--if I'm understanding correctly--that the sensor should be ON the positive post.

Soooo yeah. Looks like 6 ft is your limit.
Or do the the sealed battery option and have it all inside.
And it's the neg post it goes on.

 

[jaymar]

Damn. They do say positive for the sensors, though...

2.4.3 Connecting the Battery SensorWire the Battery Sensor as shown in Figure 2.4.3.1 ensuring that the Voltage and Temperature Sensor(RED terminal) connects to the house battery positive terminal. This lead measures voltage andtemperature at the battery. The “BNEG” stud connects to the House Battery negative terminal and the“GND” stud connects to the vehicle common ground point. Connect the CANBus Connection cable toeither of the main unit CANBus interfaces.

 

[jaymar]

While I look over the manual, I suppose there's no interest in swapping to a sealed AGM for in-cab use instead?
I use 2 of them in cab.

edit: oh and, dam dawg, the manager 30! That's stepping out well heeled.

Yeah, well, took me eight years to get here. As to the batteries, I just don't want the things in the cab--or the fat cables that go with them.

 

[LandLocked93]

Damn. They do say positive for the sensors, though...

2.4.3 Connecting the Battery SensorWire the Battery Sensor as shown in Figure 2.4.3.1 ensuring that the Voltage and Temperature Sensor(RED terminal) connects to the house battery positive terminal. This lead measures voltage andtemperature at the battery. The “BNEG” stud connects to the House Battery negative terminal and the“GND” stud connects to the vehicle common ground point. Connect the CANBus Connection cable toeither of the main unit CANBus interfaces.

Yeah, misspeak on my part ... batt sensor 'BNEG' ON neg post, voltage/temp sensor TO pos post.

Yeah, well, took me eight years to get here. As to the batteries, I just don't want the things in the cab--or the fat cables that go with them.

Def not top o'the list for alot of folk. Took me 3 yrs to swallow the cost of just a BCDC. But great units nonetheless.
RedVision is prob my bucket list ... for when that money is just sitting around.
Same here on the fat cables, but went 24V for all accessories to resolve that.
The only 12V involved is a single 2ga run front to back, into the 24V BCDC (which also solves the voltage drop therein).

 

[LandLocked93]

So, what's your plan now?

 

[jaymar]

I'm thinking (based on recent input from a guy who knows a heckuva lot more than I do about all this) that the longer wire run is unlikely to make any practical difference, so the 30 goes under the PSeat, or behind the rear PS panel, or inside a seat delete. All of which are probably 7-15 feet from the aux battery. I'm working with someone on a wiring diagram for the whole aux system.

The catch is, I have yet to find an installer who is, a) is knowledgeable, meticulous, and familiar with REDARC and other overland components--and b) remotely affordable. The SoCal 'name' shops are by all accounts stellar and worth every penny--but it's become rather clear that I'm not playing in the same financial league as their regular clientele...

 

[jaymar]

Okay, now we get to the nitty-gritty; something I didn't know, and neither did the aforementioned Knowledgeable Guy, because you'd kind of have to work for REDARC to know this... What follows is based on my current understanding (pun intended), which is subject to change with notice...

The M30 makes assumptions that can lead to problems if it's not mounted the way they tell you to mount it. First off, it's not gonna survive under the hood, as it wasn't designed for that. Plus...'apparently' the unit charges the battery based on (among other things) the ambient temperature--which is (as I understand it) measured at the unit itself or via that shunt that (if the M30 is in the cab) cannot be extended to reach the battery under the hood. So you could easily wind up with a situation where the unit (which assumes the battery is right next door) is pushing charge like it's 77F (because, in the cab, it is)--meanwhile the battery is actually at 140F, or -20F. Not good, to say the least.

Which means, yes, it looks like I'm going to have no choice but to put a battery in the cab, and likely drag welding cable inside to hook it up. And (more gnashing of teeth) lithium seems to make a lot more sense in this application than AGM. Regarding which...

Time to catch up on the rando-thermal-runaway lithium batteries vs the new breed. Revisiting this now. Anyone have any thoughts on lithium safety: fires, offgassing etc.? (Every time I walk by my Micro-Start, I get a whiff of chemical stink I assume is offgassing, because it never goes away...)

Builds - "The Cucumber" build. Ultimate 80-series. 1HD-FT, H152F (world's first), PTO. Titanium and carbon fiber galore.

.. My pack has 302AH of actual usable capacity, which is absolutely INSANE. .. Thats more than impressive and workmanship

forum.ih8mud.com

 

[GeoRoss]

Okay, now we get to the nitty-gritty; something I didn't know, and neither did the aforementioned Knowledgeable Guy, because you'd kind of have to work for REDARC to know this... What follows is based on my current understanding (pun intended), which is subject to change with notice...

The M30 makes assumptions that can lead to problems if it's not mounted the way they tell you to mount it. First off, it's not gonna survive under the hood, as it wasn't designed for that. Plus...'apparently' the unit charges the battery based on (among other things) the ambient temperature--which is (as I understand it) measured at the unit itself or via that shunt that (if the M30 is in the cab) cannot be extended to reach the battery under the hood. So you could easily wind up with a situation where the unit (which assumes the battery is right next door) is pushing charge like it's 77F (because, in the cab, it is)--meanwhile the battery is actually at 140F, or -20F. Not good, to say the least.

Which means, yes, it looks like I'm going to have no choice but to put a battery in the cab, and likely drag welding cable inside to hook it up. And (more gnashing of teeth) lithium seems to make a lot more sense in this application than AGM. Regarding which...

Time to catch up on the rando-thermal-runaway lithium batteries vs the new breed. Revisiting this now. Anyone have any thoughts on lithium safety: fires, offgassing etc.? (Every time I walk by my Micro-Start, I get a whiff of chemical stink I assume is offgassing, because it never goes away...)

Builds - "The Cucumber" build. Ultimate 80-series. 1HD-FT, H152F (world's first), PTO. Titanium and carbon fiber galore.

.. My pack has 302AH of actual usable capacity, which is absolutely INSANE. .. Thats more than impressive and workmanship

forum.ih8mud.com

You don't need monster wire from the starter battery to the Redarc. I can't recall the amps running on the Manger 30, but with the 25A BCDC you really can get away with 6 AWG if that is all you need to power with that line. I ran 4 AWG to also run a compressor directly from the starter battery. It was not horrible.

 

[LandLocked93]

Which means, yes, it looks like I'm going to have no choice but to put a battery in the cab, and likely drag welding cable inside to hook it up. And (more gnashing of teeth) lithium seems to make a lot more sense in this application than AGM. Regarding which...

Time to catch up on the rando-thermal-runaway lithium batteries vs the new breed. Revisiting this now. Anyone have any thoughts on lithium safety: fires, offgassing etc.? (Every time I walk by my Micro-Start, I get a whiff of chemical stink I assume is offgassing, because it never goes away...)

Good, all the other issues will go away with the in-cab arrangement.
Lithium - regardless of the fire hazard, which is probably only a concern when you're charging it - is purely an economic decision. AGM removes that concern, tho at the cost of weight and size. (small cost imo compared to lithium $$$)

And no, the Manager acts as a voltage stepper. No need welding cable to resolve the drop front to back.

 

[Shoredreamer]

You could sell the Manager 30 and run a BCDC instead, under the hood next to your aux AGM/SLA battery as a solution. Then add a 110v shore charger there as well along with a dual voltmeter at the dash and achieve the same thing as the Manager 30.

Or keep the Manager 30, mount it in the cab somewhere and install a LiFePo4 battery next to it. LiFePo4 (Lithium Iron Phosphase) is completely safe in the cab. Lithium Ion is more of a fire hazard and not one I’d recommend in the cab. Most drop in Lithium House batteries are LiFePo4. Battleborn, ReLion, Dakota, DCS and a ton of other brands.

 

[jaymar]

You could sell the Manager 30 and run a BCDC instead, under the hood next to your aux AGM/SLA battery as a solution. Then add a 110v shore charger there as well along with a dual voltmeter at the dash and achieve the same thing as the Manager 30.

Or keep the Manager 30, mount it in the cab somewhere and install a LiFePo4 battery next to it. LiFePo4 (Lithium Iron Phosphase) is completely safe in the cab. Lithium Ion is more of a fire hazard and not one I’d recommend in the cab. Most drop in Lithium House batteries are LiFePo4. Battleborn, ReLion, Dakota, DCS and a ton of other brands.

Yeah; now looking at running a BCDC under the hood in front of or beside the radiator because engine bay temps will cause it to cut out, and i LiFePO4 house battery on an M30...

 

[LandLocked93]

Yeah; now looking at running a BCDC under the hood in front of or beside the radiator because engine bay temps will cause it to cut out, and i LiFePO4 house battery on an M30...

What is the BCDC for exactly? You don't need it for a simple dual engine room batt setup. Just run a dash-switched relay and voltage/current monitor on the second batt. Bind them when you want, or need to. It's how mine are wired.

 

[jaymar]

There are cheaper ways to do most of the same things.

 

[Shoredreamer]

@LandLocked93 The BCDC doesn’t require large gauge wire since it does not parallel combine your batteries like a VSR or similar type setup. This in itself makes the install a s*** ton easier. It charges an aux battery by pulling power from your start battery. This means it can charge at specific voltages and the 2 batteries can be different chemistries, among other pros and cons.