Red Tops are on their way out

[Radd Cruisers]

OptimaJim;

It really is good to see vendors offering help with product issues and I am sure that your presence has helped a number of people sort out common battery issues.

The real world fact remains that Optima batteries (and even most other AGM batteries) do not perform at all well in series applications. In fact, the charge/re-charge/float characteristics for AGM batteries to survive in daily driven and expedition-type vehicles is almost never met even remotely adequately in the vehicles we drive by the stock alternator and voltage regulator.

I have the experience of dealing with dozens and dozens of Optima batteries over the years (had my first one in the early/mid 1990s) and I can tell you that they by far and above the most problematic battery in 24V applications. Some users are fortunate and get perhaps 2 or 3 years of use out of them, but not without a lot of battery swapping (side to side in the vehicle) and maintenance charging to keep them working at a barely acceptable level.

As a result, I do not recommend that AGMs are used in series applications. If I can save someone the experience of spending too much money on an under-performing battery, then I will. And, I'll point them in the direction of something that will give them better service for their application and intended usage. Usually, that means they are going to get heavy duty flooded batteries along with some instructions on how to get the most from their battery purchase.

In parallel battery applications, where the person's budget capable of spending more on batteries, I'll recommend AGM batteries - such as in sailboats, some diesels, and cars.

In marine applications, AGMs perform very well when the alternator and voltage regulator are properly set up for AGM use, and also where a high quality stand-by charging and maintenance system is in place. In cars and light trucks, especially older models, AGMs are just not always a good fit.

A few other points to consider: here in Canada, Optima batteries are very over-priced when compared to other brands and types. The number of vendors carrying Optima is probably closely related to this type of pricing - even low cost vendors such as WalMart sell these batteries for much more than what one would normally pay in the USA. As a business owner myself, I cannot justify stocking and selling a battery or product that I can make any margin on as I cannot compete with big box vendors - I need to survive in business, and Optima battery (and many others - including ARB, Warn winch etc.) do NOT help the situation by only selling to large distributors for marked-up redistribution to smaller businesses such as mine. Pricing policies that penalize Canadians with pricing that can be 2 to 3 times what is paid in the USA is very counter-productive to doing business (Toyota Canada is very guilty of this).

In summary, I have not had very many good experiences with Optima since that one battery I owned in the 1990s (12V single battery application). I do see the yellow tops performing somewhat better than the red tops, but this is in 12V parallel applications and not 24V series applications. I am unable to sell Optima in my business because I cannot obtain them for a reasonable wholesale price point - not that I would really want to offer them, other than they are perhaps the most recognizable AGM battery in the 4WD/automotive market.

I do appreciate you providing information helping people out, but I simply can not recommend products that have, in my experience and that of my clients, weak performance in real world use.

~John
Owner - Radd Cruisers 4WD Ltd.

 

[prado t]

As John metioned above, I have heard of the OPTIMAS failing in 12V application also. I guess my OPTIMA Yellow tops have been slowly (breaking down) since the day they were installed in my BJ 74 (24V)
My starter motor sounds healthier since I installed the Marine batteries. I am looking forward to see how long they will last.

 

[WrenchMonkey]

Optima jim I would have gladly abused your batteries but at the time no one had the optimas I wanted in stock, so I went for the odysseys at a very very good price, because I couldn't wait for them to get stock on optimas.

I can't comment on your batteries as I have not had a chance to run them Too bad, I'm rough on equipment so I give equipment a fair test.

Frankly I'm suprised these batteries held up to what they have been through but I'm glad they did.

oh and my batteries are AGM and they have no problems and my charging system is dead stock dare I say even still original except voltage Reg. but I replaced that with the factory one. But I'm also not one of those people that runs any 12V components off of the 24V system. did any of you guys ever think this maybe a problem?? have you guys ever checked amps running off each battery while sitting and while running to see if there is extra current coming off one battery not the other??

even bad grounds surrounding the 12V headlights can cause some issues on things, well have fun on your discussion guys I gotta go work on my truck

 

[Glenn-BJ74]

Red tops are OUT and the marine deep cycles are IN ...

Yuasa (Global) branded as Western Power with 24 month free replacement/48 month prorated warranty

 

[OptimaJim]

John, I'm sorry to hear about your disappointment with our products. I don't have any involvement on the pricing & distribution end of things, but I will certainly pass along your comments to the appropriate folks. I cannot say that I would agree with your opinion about series applications and AGM batteries either. When I meet folks like Gary & Monika Wescott at SEMA and hear their stories about our batteries surviving some of the toughest conditions on earth, it gives me great confidence in our products. We don't have a separate assembly line that produces batteries for trans-Siberian expeditions or 1,152 consecutive days at sea, so the folks that accomplish these amazing feats (in series and parallel applications) are doing it with the same batteries anyone else can buy.

While I would agree that some older models of cars and light trucks do not do well with AGM batteries, I wouldn't say that is necessarily a reflection of the batteries themselves (regardless of brand), as much as the demands placed on an older electrical system by modern accessories, like winches, refrigerators, GPS systems, etc... For some folks, an electrical upgrade begins and ends with a new battery, with no attention paid to the wiring or charging system. If someone has an expedition vehicle loaded to the gills with all kinds of electrical demands, I'm not sure why they would choose to upgrade their battery, but ignore their stock alternator and voltage regulator.


Jim McIlvaine
eCare Manager, OPTIMA Batteries, Inc.
www.facebook.com/optimabatteries

 

[steverb]

just to jump in here, I've had my yellow top in my 40 for just over 8 years now. and i have winched, played the stereo until it was dead multiple times and run some big light. and the battery is still going strong.

 

[Radd Cruisers]

I cannot say that I would agree with your opinion about series applications and AGM batteries either. When I meet folks like Gary & Monika Wescott at SEMA and hear their stories about our batteries surviving some of the toughest conditions on earth, it gives me great confidence in our products. We don't have a separate assembly line that produces batteries for trans-Siberian expeditions or 1,152 consecutive days at sea, so the folks that accomplish these amazing feats (in series and parallel applications) are doing it with the same batteries anyone else can buy.


Jim McIlvaine
eCare Manager, OPTIMA Batteries, Inc.
www.facebook.com/optimabatteries

I have learned over the years to take the opinions of people who are talking about sponsored goods with a grain of salt.

The Wescotts are running a pretty custom set up with dual alternators, 2 starting batteries, 4 house batteries and a battery maintenance system in place - that is not really a typical set up at all.

In the real world, things are a little different.

The sailing blog is interesting. Wish I had more time to read it all.

~John

 

[sailor]

John, Agreed. As an Ironic side note, in the attached picture of the 'motor room' from the sailing website, we can observe several violations of ABYC pleasurecraft wiring code best practices, including undersized wire, un secured wire, exposed positive terminals, incorrect wire rating, non marine grade wire, green corrosion on what looks like a shunt, again with no terminal caps...... I'd love to see the battery installation!

 

[Enigma]

Remind me never to post pics of my coughhackcough 'wiring'.

 

[OptimaJim]

John, you did mention “expedition-type vehicles” and it would seem like the Westcott's trucks would fit that bill pretty fairly. I could post dozens of articles featuring trucks (not sponsored by us) that run our batteries in all kinds of configurations, but that's not really the point. The Westcotts have run our batteries in series applications very successfully in very extreme environments, because they set their rig up correctly. You are correct that their setup is not typical and it is unfortunate that so many people load up their vehicles with so many accessories, but leave themselves vulnerable with a stock charging system and substandard wiring.

As I mentioned before, I'm not involved in the pricing and distribution end of things, so I have no idea what the margins are on our products or anyone else's. I have often wondered if that was a consideration of some car audio installers, who will happily drop in a 10,000-watt stereo system and a bank of car audio batteries with one-year warranties. Is the margin on a customer buying replacement batteries 15 months later better than the margin on selling someone a battery maintainer when they install such a package?

You seem like a well-respected guy on this forum and a very conscientious businessman. I'm sure you've repaired your share of vehicles that weren't put together the right way. What do you tell a client who wants to spend money on a winch and a refrigerator, but doesn't want to put anything into their stock alternator and wiring?


Jim McIlvaine
eCare Manager, OPTIMA Batteries, Inc.
www.facebook.com/optimabatteries

 

[Glenn-BJ74]

A few more points to this surprisingly long thread.

I agree that Optima’s can perform well in expedition vehicles, but there are really two classes of expedition vehicles that John was alluding to earlier; 1) no budget constraint and the best of everything rigs, and 2) the rest of us. For the rest of us we compare performance, cost and value.

I have no doubt Optima’s will perform well in the first category, but most long-term experiences described in this thread suggest the reviews for Optima’s are mixed at best. I think the consensus is that Optima batteries do not last any longer and in some cases not as long other less expensive batteries.

The fact that some Optima’s last 6 or 8 or 10 years, does not suggest Optima’s are a superior battery as other batteries can last as long or even longer. I got 12 years out of my 1993 Toyota Previa battery (1993 to 2005), that is 12-years on an Japanese OEM battery.

Pricing is another big issue and I would suggest there is a huge markup on Optima’s – and retailers love promoting and selling Optima’s. Case in point, the local Lordco local parts retailer here has Group 34/78 Yellow Tops “on sale” for $332.00 each. This compares to $109.00 I paid for the battery (pictured above) with higher CCA (800 vs 750), higher Reserve Capacity (170 vs 110) and twice the warranty period of the Yellow Top.

I believe Optima’s do have their place in racing, competition, show vehicle and “money no object” applications but for us more practical folks who typically own Landcruiser there are better alternatives

 

[Wheelingnoob]

A few more points to this surprisingly long thread.

I agree that Optima’s can perform well in expedition vehicles, but there are really two classes of expedition vehicles that John was alluding to earlier; 1) no budget constraint and the best of everything rigs, and 2) the rest of us. For the rest of us we compare performance, cost and value.

I have no doubt Optima’s will perform well in the first category, but most long-term experiences described in this thread suggest the reviews for Optima’s are mixed at best. I think the consensus is that Optima batteries do not last any longer and in some cases not as long other less expensive batteries.

The fact that some Optima’s last 6 or 8 or 10 years, does not suggest Optima’s are a superior battery as other batteries can last as long or even longer. I got 12 years out of my 1993 Toyota Previa battery (1993 to 2005), that is 12-years on an Japanese OEM battery.

Pricing is another big issue and I would suggest there is a huge markup on Optima’s – and retailers love promoting and selling Optima’s. Case in point, the local Lordco local parts retailer here has Group 34/78 Yellow Tops “on sale” for $332.00 each. This compares to $109.00 I paid for the battery (pictured above) with higher CCA (800 vs 750), higher Reserve Capacity (170 vs 110) and twice the warranty period of the Yellow Top.

I believe Optima’s do have their place in racing, competition, show vehicle and “money no object” applications but for us more practical folks who typically own Landcruiser there are better alternatives

Well said!

 

[Radd Cruisers]

John, you did mention “expedition-type vehicles” and it would seem like the Westcott's trucks would fit that bill pretty fairly. I could post dozens of articles featuring trucks (not sponsored by us) that run our batteries in all kinds of configurations, but that's not really the point. The Westcotts have run our batteries in series applications very successfully in very extreme environments, because they set their rig up correctly. You are correct that their setup is not typical and it is unfortunate that so many people load up their vehicles with so many accessories, but leave themselves vulnerable with a stock charging system and substandard wiring.


Jim McIlvaine
eCare Manager, OPTIMA Batteries, Inc.
www.facebook.com/optimabatteries

Jim;

The Westcott's vehicle is going to be 12V, then the batteries are in parallel, not series. There are really not that many 24V vehicles on the roads these days - but most of the North American Land Cruisers diesels are 24V - as a group of users, we have a very substantial amount of real-world experience with 24V systems and what works vs. what does not.

A goodly number of expedition vehicles have pretty questionable wiring... looks like a lot of spaghetti sans sauce.

My sailing buddy, Don, runs 3 AGMs (Deka) on his boat is his wiring is immaculate. He also runs a premium charging and maintenance system, so I highly doubt he will ever have a problem with his batteries.

~John

 

[BiffS]

Ive been running Optimas since 1992 with mixed results: in daily driven cars, with bigger stereo and lighting uses, they held up great; first red top bought in 92 lasted nearly 9 years.

first red top in a 4x4 lasted just past 2 years, before it died of a broken terminal internally.

second red top in 4x4 lasted 3 years, and after sold with a vehicle, heard it lasted another 2.

third red top lasted only 1 year, before it wouldn't charge and hold properly, so i went to a yellow top.

first yellow top lasted 2 years

second yellow top is going on year 3 and doing fine.

summary: 2 bad Reds, one bad yellow, One red lasted thru hell and back and for a long time (in various volkswagens). in 4x4 application, only a couple winch pulls per year, not so great, but the yellows can go sour too. . . On yellow, with intermittent use doing just fine.

Seems like the luck of the draw...

 

[prado t]

So OPTIMA JIM, I guess you missed post #44. I would like to hear your comments. My Yellow tops are a Month over 3 years . They do have a 3 year warranty, correct.

 

[OptimaJim]

prado t, I apologize for missing your earlier post, but after reading it and your most-recent post, I'm not sure if your YellowTops with the corroded connection lasted three years, 37 months or were on their way out two years ago. Since your YellowTops were purchased prior to February 1, 2009, they came with a 12-month free replacement factory warranty and a 12-month pro-rated warranty. All new YellowTops sold after that date come with three-year, free replacement factory warranties. If they were on their way out two years ago, what was the voltage at that time and what symptoms of failure were they exhibiting?

Glenn, I have no doubt a lot of folks compare performance, cost and value when making purchases, but as John indicated, there are plenty of expedition vehicles out there with questionable wiring. I wouldn't be surprised if many of those same vehicles had questionable charging systems as well. Perhaps another important consideration folks should make when considering a purchase is whether a new battery (ours or anyone else's) will be a short-term fix to a symptom or a long-term solution to the underlying problem. I see all the modifications you've chosen to list in your signature and while I sometimes see batteries listed in such signatures, I almost never see anyone listing the size of their wiring or the output of their alternator, even though both are significant components to any successful electrical system, especially those with winches, refrigerators and other high-draw accessories.

John, while there may not be many 24-volt civillian vehicles on the roads these days, there are quite a few in military applications. Optima does not allow me to discuss our current military applications, but I am allowed to link to de-comissioned military applications, like these-

1980 AM General M920 8x8 - Army Truck - Four Wheeler Magazine
1975 Volvo TGB 111 C303 - 4-Wheel & Off-Road Magazine

(we don't sponsor either one of those trucks)

AGM batteries have long been the preferred option in many military applications (as well as many other large fleets with 24v configurations), which typically see far more demanding use (and abuse) than what most civilians are capable of dishing out. The monster truck guys also typically have 24-volt configurations in their trucks and many tournament fishermen typically run 36-volt trolling motors. Do all of these vehicles probably have wiring and charging systems that are far more robust than what might be found in a typical vehicle? Sure, but that doesn't mean it should be that way. If someone can afford to throw auxiliary lighting, winches and refrigerators into their rigs, they should be able to upgrade their wiring and charging system as well.

I don't know if retailers are just happy to sell products and not ask questions or if consumers view batteries as disposable items and they'd rather go through the hassle of getting multiple warranty replacements, over spending a little more on better wiring, a bigger alternator or even a simple battery tender. Luck rarely has anything to do with whether any battery lasts a long time or not.


Jim McIlvaine
eCare Manager, OPTIMA Batteries, Inc.
www.facebook.com/optimabatteries

 

[Wheelingnoob]

My 80 series is getting a 130 amp alternator all new wiring from ALT to battery and from battery to Isolator and onto 2nd battery. The cabling will all be sized according to load.

I think that will qualify as a updated charging system as all the components will be new and over sized for the needs of the truck.

Having said that though I would still not spend the money on a Optima and there questionable results I have seen first hand. I would spend the money on somthing like a Deka, Diehard Platnum/Odassy tho. I just do not have faith in Optima's any longer. In this truck though I will be going with what has worked in the past and installing standard lead acid battery's. If I have a problem I can change them 3 times before I get close to the cost of the AGM's I would run in this setup.

The Lead Acids I am looking have a better warranty than the AGM's out there as well.

My brother has a 24V truck and it will not be getting a AGM (not brand specific) battery set up ether. He has a good performing Alt and new cabling with no ad on electronics. It's just way to much of a risk in his case to try it out no mater what you say. We have people here that have 24V set ups having problems with them and that is enough to turn us off.

 

[Glenn-BJ74]

An important point I believe is being missed here. I don't think alternator output and poor wiring is an issue underlying the less than impressive performance of Optima’s relative to other less expensive competitive batteries. If that defect exists it would affect all batteries equally and what we are observing in this and other threads is that Optima’s fair no better than the average battery (sometimes worse), while costing a great deal more.

You say that “All new YellowTops sold after that date (Feb. 2009) come with three-year, free replacement factory warranties”. Please advise our local retailers of this new policy because that is not what they offer. Please see my post #71, the batteries I purchased have twice the warrantee period of the Yellow Tops available here. Yellow tops are 1 year free replacement and 2-year pro-rated – the ones I bought are 2 years and 4-years respectively --so I am looking at the longer term.

As for my accessories you refer to most are non-electrical. For example my winch is a PTO as many of us responding to this thread have PTO winches. The ARB fridges we use are extremely efficient, drawing 2.7 amps at 12 volts (less than 50% of one headlight) when running, which not much during the high elevations nights which we typical camp at.

I do not have any high-draw accessories, because we travel to remote places and we are careful about minimizing electrical draws so the vehicle starts in the mornings. Landcruiser owners are generally a conservative bunch and tend to keep their vehicles in good shape and use proper wiring and fusing and maintain our batteries.

The military example is really not relevant to civilian purchase decisions. The military can easily justify buying the most expensive of everything and don’t really care how long it lasts as long as it’s the biggest and the ‘baddest’ most advanced piece of kit they can get, since the taxpayer is paying for it. Talk to US and Canadian military guys in Iraq and Afghanistan who say their ‘state of the art’ trucks and equipment are always breaking down, while the local ‘war lords” scurry about in their ancient Landcruisers (probably with defective wiring/alternators and you guessed it -- no Optima battery)

 

[OptimaJim]

Glenn, the issues many folks experience with Optimas are also experienced by owners of other batteries, both flooded and AGM. Enthusiasts tend to gravitate toward more high-performance items and Optima is the leader in the AGM market. By some estimates we sell more AGM batteries than all of our competitors combined. As a result, there are likely to be far more conversations (both good and bad) about our products, especially amongst enthusiasts. Please feel free to PM me the contact information for any retailer that is selling Optimas with factory warranties that are shorter in duration than those found here.

While you and several others in this particular thread may have PTO winches, electric winches are far more common and even though your fridge may be efficient as fridges go, they are by definition a high-draw accessory. A 2.7-amp draw will discharge most automotive batteries in 24 hours or less, if no charge goes to the battery.

Price may be a secondary consideration to component durability and troop safety for the military, but that would seem like positive attributes to a conservative bunch. So should I believe you when you tell me Landcruiser owners tend to keep their vehicles in good shape and use proper wiring or John, who runs a business dedicated to these vehicles and claims a good number of them have pretty questionable wiring?


Jim McIlvaine
eCare Manager, OPTIMA Batteries, Inc.
www.facebook.com/optimabatteries

 

[Glenn-BJ74]

"A 2.7-amp draw will discharge most automotive batteries in 24 hours or less, if no charge goes to the battery."

True, but that is not the way it works. If a 24 volt systems has two standard 55-amp-hour batteries they will have a combined 110 amp-hours at 12 volts. ARB fridges do not run continuously. My fridge cycles about 20% of the time over night. How do I know? - I sleep beside it.
So 0.20 X 2.7 amps-hr X 14 hours = 7.5 amp-hr draw down, which does not come close to 110 amp-hours.
For me it comes down to performance versus costs. I guess I am done now on this one.