Red Tops are on their way out

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What's the difference between a marine cranking amp and a regular cranking amp?
The Polars are Battery Alliance, previously Globelite as noted in your post 21. No idea if the RV battery is the same as a marine battery...

I don't have the reserve capacity info but the Globelite/Battery Alliance RV is 675 CCA, 850 CA.
I can look on mine tomorrow and see where it was made and if there's any reserve capacity info on it - probably not.

For 4 of them out the door I paid $457... 3 years ago.
 
Well all this was a mystery to me when I started looking into batteries again, but I have sorted it out.

  • Cold Cranking Amps is the rating at 0 F or -18C. CCA is amps a battery can supply for 30 seconds until the battery voltage drops to 1.20 volts per cell.battery).
  • Marine Cranking Amps is a rating at 32F or 0 C. MCA is the number of amps a battery can supply for 30 seconds until the battery voltage drops to 1.20 volts per cell.
  • Cranking Amps = number of amps a battery can supply for 30 seconds at a temperature of 80 degrees F until the battery voltage drops to 1.20 volts per cell.
So as you see the difference is only the temperature the ratings are done at. MCA is good enough for me as that is generally as cold as I go wheeling, but for those use their trucks as DD and live in cold climates the CCA rating is more important. As long as the battery is equal or exceeds the OEM battery, should be fine

Marine batteries or marine deep cycle are designed for both starting and long deep current draws. They are 'semi-deep cycle' since and can be drawn down to 50% (12.1 volts) without damage. A true Deep Cycle can be drawn down to 80% ( 11.66 volt) without damage, but they are no good for starting. I am now looking for a digital 24 volt read-out so I can monitor my batteries, so I don't draw them below 24.2 volts in series, running my fridge.

Compare to starting batteries, the marine battery design has thicker plates and a bigger space at the bottom to prevent bottom shorting and stronger mounts for the plates to handle the pounding speed boats take. For a dedicated RV battery (never used starting) a true deep cycle is the one to get, rather than a marine battery, which is dual purpose.

The Korean marine battery (Global) I looked at has almost twice the amp-hour rating than the Yellow Top ( 105 vs 55) and higher MCA (1000 vs 870). The Yellow top 34/78 is a much smaller battery than the Group 27, which is the size that was put in my rig, because Optima does not make a Group 27. So you pay twice the price for a battery with inferior specs, because its smaller and its a AGM. The Global is a maintenance free battery so it should not leak if I flop.

 
No idea if the RV battery is the same as a marine battery...

Polar told me that the only difference between the RV battery and the regular 27F battery is the plates are a bit thicker. It is still a starting battery. I could have gone with the RV battery if I had extended each cable by 6" or re-cabled with longer cables. It wasn't worth it for me.
 
Well my yellow tops are gone now. I went to EDMONDS batteries and picked up 2 650mca Marine batteries . They sure fit nice !

I picked these up last week for $90 a piece


I balanced both yellow tops and cleaned up a corroded connection that was hidden by the terminal clamp. They worked fine for a while (2.5 months) . I went on a 1 week hiatus up north and did some COLD weather camping running the BIG Waeco and Winching daily. On the second day home I couldnt start the 74. One yellow was 12.7V and the other was 5V.
A good thing I didnt shut it off , it was -22 and went down to-27C. My Yellows packed it in after 3 years 115,000kms ( correction My yellow tops have been on their way out 2 years ago) I had someone call me
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Glenn, I'm sorry to hear your RedTops did not meet your expectations. RedTops are SLI (starting/lighting/ignition) batteries and are not designed or warrantied for deep-cycle applications, including refrigerators or winching. Our YellowTops are designed and warrantied for such uses and would likely deliver better performance over a longer period of time in your application. I cannot speak for other AGM manufacturers, but our batteries have no charging issues in series applications.

We do manufacture a Group 27 battery in both our YellowTops and BlueTops and since you were discussing marine batteries in general terms, I'd like to explain our BlueTop marine batteries in a more specific manner. Internally, the D34M, D27M & D31M are identical to their YellowTop counterparts. Our 34M BlueTop with a dark gray case is the marine version of our Group 34 RedTop and is designed for starting applications. BlueTops do come with additional threaded top posts, while YellowTops come with a three-year, free replacement warranty.

Mat R, the quality of our batteries has always been excellent and advances in technology have allowed us to improve both the consistency and reliability of our products. The batteries we manufacture now are the best we have ever made. You can watch a video of our production process here.

Wheelingnoob, I'm sorry to hear about the problems you and your father had with your batteries and I'd like to hear more about the circumstances surrounding your issues and the subsequent failures. Were your Supra and his Maserati daily drivers? Why did your father use a BlueTop?

John G, Optima is owned by Johnson Controls, but we manufacture all of our own batteries in our own facility and they are the only batteries made there. We never outsource our production to third party manufacturers and we never re-brand or re-spec our batteries for specific retailers. Since Greg_B mentioned the “g” word, I should clarify that Optima batteries are not gel batteries. Our batteries can be charged and treated just like flooded lead-acid batteries in most situations, but “gel” or “gel/AGM” charger settings should be avoided.

Martin S & Phil, I'm glad to hear your Optimas are performing well for you. We're always looking for customer stories, so feel free to share yours with us.


Jim McIlvaine
eCare Manager, OPTIMA Batteries, Inc.
www.facebook.com/optimabatteries
 
I must say that I am always impressed when a vendor/ manufacturer replies to forum posts :cheers:. Equally impressive (and correct me if I'm wrong) is the fact that Optimas are manufactured in the US, this alone would sway me to buy Optimas again.
Thanks for the post Jim
 
Jim

I appreciate your showing up, and as an ecare rep can understand the reason and role for posting up the company perspective. As a layman I certainly can not discuss to the depth and extent possible with your resources. I can simply relay my real world experience (and a good many others I know with 24V vehicles) of problems when running the AGM Optimas. In vehicles which, when switched to conventional style batteries have no further problems and both batteries showing a balanced charge profile (all grounds good, all cables good, all connections clean). Perhaps through discussion we can all come away a little wiser, even if perspectives stay in similar positions.

Would I run an Optima in a 12V application. Yes, though to be honest I will likely try something along the way of Odyssey next, to get my real world experience with them.

Regards, and hopefully you can assist some of the folks here with some potential fixes that might have contributed to their batteries early demise.

gb
 
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Wheelingnoob, I'm sorry to hear about the problems you and your father had with your batteries and I'd like to hear more about the circumstances surrounding your issues and the subsequent failures. Were your Supra and his Maserati daily drivers? Why did your father use a BlueTop?

No the Supra was not a daily driver, it was a weekend use and race car. It was driven every weekend in the summer and raced almost every Friday. It would sometimes be used on nice week day to drive to work. In the winter it was stored (battery disconnected) and the car would be started and warmed up once a week (30-45min run time).

The Maserati got a blue top at the recommendation of the local parts store selling them. That car was driven much the same as the Supra but not raced and used to go to and from work more often than the Supra. The Maserati was stored in the garage over the winter and in the same matter as the Supra started once a week and fully warmed up, battery disconnected otherwise.

All this happened in the early 2000's 2001-2003 ish. I was sold on the Optima's after hearing how durable and vibration resistant they were. Interestingly enough after all the problems with them the $90 Edmonds Lead acid replacement lasted till I sold the car last year with out any issues. Its still running on that battery to this day. So for me $250 for the optima and 2ish years of use vs $90 Lead acid and 7 year of worry free use? I think you know were I will be putting the money for my next battery's.

Thanks for your response here, nice to see a manufacturer stepping into what could be a messy situation.

:cheers:

p.s. This is just my experience with Optimas, some have had great success. Having said that though I would not recommend them to anyone biased on my experiences.
 
Jim

I appreciate your showing up, and as an ecare rep can understand the reason and role for posting up the company perspective. As a layman I certainly can not discuss to the depth and extent possible with your resources. I can simply relay my real world experience (and a good many others I know with 24V vehicles) of problems when running the AGM Optimas.

....

Regards, and hopefully you can assist some of the folks here with some potential fixes that might have contributed to their batteries early demise.

gb

Perhaps Jim would consider adding to this thread <https://forum.ih8mud.com/diesel-tech-24-volts-systems/436939-optima-batterys-24-volts.html> and reviewing the other threads you listed Greg. It would give him a better idea of real life experience and be more appropriate for a wider 24V discussion than in just our club's section of MUD.
 
Jim, it is really nice to see a supporting vendor on here and getting involved in this thread, this way we get all points of view (and you earn brownie points for being on this forum).
I do have to say that when my Yellow tops finally packed it in it (after just under 5 years of service) I went to my local battery supplier who recommended a different brand - Deka. Showing me the difference in plate size ( the Deka brand having larger plates) and also in price. Up here we have a couple choices, we either go to battery suppliers or auto parts stores or Costco for batteries. Costco is hit/miss as they don't always carry them and even with my discounts Optima batteries were a little on the expensive side. So on top of my battery supplier's recommendations of going with a different brand and the lower cost of that brand I switched. The new batteries are performing really well.
So if Optima's quality hasn't changed, why do I encounter battery suppliers that recommend other brands? (you might say they make more off them but in Polar Battery's case the guy I deal with for over 6 years has never sold me a product based upon cost or profit - just on application) How does your product compare to brands like Deka?
In a recent Overland Journal test of different batteries Optima didn't rate that high, they tested the Red Top and found that as a starting battery the duty cycle rated 3rd between Interstate, Die Hard, Seamate from Deka and a hugely overpriced battery from Valence. During a load test they also observed excessive heating from the battery. During the voltage under load test Optima rated 3rd, reserve capacity under a 25 amp load it was 4th, and overall scoring 3rd. Deka scored higher but the Die Hard platinum series was #1, based upon performance and cost. Is there any information you can give us from your side to allow us to make a better informed decision?
 
lol you guys. only CCA in the triple digits my odysseys are 1150 CCA never any problems starting or running no matter what temp, starts my truck strong enough that it will run away when it's in gear. 205 reserve minutes is also hard to beat :).
but the 86 Lbs a piece is a bitch to lift out.

but there testament was sitting in my truck for the past 8 or more months and not even really needing to be put on a charger, they went on to maintenance mode on the charger in like 15 mins.
 
oh about 3 months after I got my truck so like 5 or more years. don't know KMs as my odo doesn't work.

they have been thru alot too blown voltage regulator so they have been over charged. and they have been killed completely because of another electrical issue numerous times. I do not babie these batteries by any means they have only come out of my truck like 3 times since i first installed them.

and they have been used multiple times to jump start a unimog U1300 to the point of death 2 times in a row with in 8 hours long story, but lets just say the mog had some troubles so I kept it cranking the mog for along time till it was dimming my truck lights bad, take home to the 50 amp charger charge back up and go back to crank the mog some more.
 
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Despite the kind intervention of the e-service gentleman from Optima I am unconvinced. If you have a race car or one of those stupid go fast Florida waterbed boats (you know- beautiful lake+ earsplitting exhaust + hyper sonic stereo+ steroids ) fill your boots. Heavy traction applications? No thanks.
 
lol you guys. only CCA in the triple digits my odysseys are 1150 CCA never any problems starting or running no matter what temp, starts my truck strong enough that it will run away when it's in gear. 205 reserve minutes is also hard to beat :).
but the 86 Lbs a piece is a bitch to lift out.

but there testament was sitting in my truck for the past 8 or more months and not even really needing to be put on a charger, they went on to maintenance mode on the charger in like 15 mins.

86 lbs !! they must be bigger than Group 27, and if so too big for me.
 
I checked on-line the 31M-PC2150 is a Group 31, which is 13" long - won't fit my truck - $350 (USD) each x 2
 
Despite the kind intervention of the e-service gentleman from Optima I am unconvinced. If you have a race car or one of those stupid go fast Florida waterbed boats (you know- beautiful lake+ earsplitting exhaust + hyper sonic stereo+ steroids ) fill your boots. Heavy traction applications? No thanks.

There are a bunch of people in this one small local thread that have had lost of problems with there Optimas. I would stay far away just based on the experiences here let alone the 100's of other threads on many forums about Optima's and there lack luster performance.
 
Granite Grinder, as our video indicated, our production facility is located in Monterrey, Mexico. Greg_B, I appreciate your comments and hope I am able to assist anyone who may have questions or concerns about our products.

Wheelingnoob, did you use any sort of battery tender or maintainer on either the Supra or Maserati? I cannot comment as to whether there is any mechanical benefit to periodically starting a stored vehicle, but batteries are generally better off if they are stored with some sort of battery maintainer or at the very least, fully-charged and disconnected. When stored vehicles are periodically started, unless the vehicle is driven for a long enough amount of time, the alternator may not be able to replace the energy used to start the vehicle.

Mat R., I'm glad to hear your new batteries are performing well for you. I wish I could climb into the heads of retailers and understand the reasoning behind some of the recommendations they make. I'm not familiar with your particular retailer (we have tens of thousands of retailers), but I know many of the “bad” batteries returned to us from retailers are just deeply-discharged and work fine, when properly recharged. I have heard about the Overland Journal article you mentioned and frankly, even from what you mentioned, I am disappointed to hear they would select a RedTop for their testing instead of a YellowTop, especially considering their readership and the other batteries used in their comparison.

RedTops are great starting batteries and are more than enough for the vast majority of vehicles on the road. However, as I previously mentioned, they are not designed or warrantied for deep-cycle use. It is my understanding that at least two of the other batteries used in that test were designed for deep-cycle use, which makes any comparison an apples to oranges comparison, just based on that fact alone. Since I don't have the article I cannot verify this, but from what I've been able to find online, it seems as if they didn't even use identical battery group sizes for their testing (we don't manufacture a Group 24 battery).

I would like to assume OJ sourced their batteries directly from unsuspecting retailers, although having worked in the magazine business for more than ten years, I know many of the products tested by magazines come straight from the manufacturer. We once tested a “bone-stock” 1999 Z28 that ran 12s. Our driver, Evan Smith, is one of the best shoes in the business, but that Camaro was from GM's press fleet and I never saw another bone-stock fourth gen F-body run 12s.

Perhaps the toughest thing for any magazine to test is long-term durability, but that might be the most relevant test for many readers. How does a magazine put batteries in identical, real-world conditions and see which one lasts the longest? Even if they figure that out, no magazine wants to wait on a comparison test that may go on for five to ten years and be a technologically moot point by the time it is concluded. It looks like you are getting into the magazine business and I hope that if you decide to do comparison tests, that you structure them carefully and fairly and without concern for advertising interests (either before or after the tests are published).

Testimonials like Brad R's are great news for any manufacturer, but the truth is, lots of people abuse their batteries (and vehicles in general). When a product stands up to the abuse, everyone is happy and great marketing is created. When the products don't live up to what can sometimes be unrealistic expectations, the complaints tend to focus on the effect, rather than the cause. One of the biggest challenges I deal with is trying to help the guy who thinks our batteries are garbage, because he went through three in a single day, especially when a dozen other folks have already responded and none have questioned whether there might be some other issue causing his batteries to fail.

Jim McIlvaine
eCare Manager, OPTIMA Batteries, Inc.
Optima Batteries | Facebook
 

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