Re-examination of Snorkel/Air Intake...

[RCFloyd]

Howdy all.

I've done the searches regarding the issue of fresh air make-up for the 1fz motor, and have come to the conclusion that the motors could indeed benefit from another source of fresh air. The conclusion was reached because of the testimony of CDan and others that claimed that they have 'felt' that it enhanced responsiveness, etc. In fact, there are any number of auto and truck manufacters that have addressed this issue within their designs.

However, I'm one of the guys that don't have need for the snorkel, and besides, I think generally that they are ugly (unless it's on a black 80, as it blends in well w/the color).

I've tried to find some sort of schematic/drawing of what the inside of the passenger side fender looks like, but to no avail. I was hoping to find what direction and shape the plastic 'cowling' is that resides on the end of the air filter housing that juts into this fender. At any rate, being familiar with Mercedes, and what they did to deal with this issue, I'd like to see what your thoughts are on it, as I'd like to proceed in this general direction; ie. to open up a little of the fender to allow more/cold/outside air into said fender.

Here are some pic's; notice the area behind the side marker.
First is the 1987 190D 2.5

[/img]

And the second is with the same motor in their '92 series 300D 2.5

There seems so be a space on the 80 right behind the side marker that would make this mod blend in well with the truck, in fact, very similar to the Benz's set-up. Also, as to potential creek crossings and such, on a stock 80 the lowest point on this vent would be at 3 feet; tires, body & suspension lifts would bring it up from this base line. That's high enough the way I see it; besides, the water would have regress out of the bottom of the inner fender well.

So, whatdaya think?

Robert

 

[MTNRAT]

Just take the piece out of the fender. Then you will be able to get a real look at what you are dealing with.
Cheers,
Sean

 

[RCFloyd]

Sean,

Thanks, but I tried that. I didn't really 'go after it' as it seemed like it was put in from the inside; it was tight. Maybe a little more muscle and KY jelly would help!

More of what I was looking for though, is what about mod'n the fender?

Rob

 

[RavenTai]

I've tried to find some sort of schematic/drawing of what the inside of the passenger side fender looks like, but to no avail.

here is a pic from the 97LX I stripped for ULC, IIRC the duct is bolted to the fender, I cannot remember if access is from the fender or the engine bay, I want to say the muffler is just jammed on there and otherwise not bolted in, but I cannot remember for sure.

I have given some thought to this as well but that is about all I have done about it,

I want cold air intake for power and detonation reduction, I want to keep the stock air filter housing as it has a centrifugal pre-cleaner, tuna can etc and it well made. I do not want to get a snorkel, I do not want the big hole in the fender nor the screw holes marching up the fender and 'A' pillar, besides I do not plan on fording water any deeper than the door sills. I am soft core like that.

one idea, remove the stock fender duct & muffler, make a baffle out of plastic, fiber glass, or even sheet metal that fits in the fender just behind the parking light about parallel with the core, seal it up with foam or sealant so that it blocks the air from the rest of the fender. put a flange on the back of it and a hole in it the diameter of the flange, clamp a duct to the flange and to the air filter housing inlet, you could wrap the duct in insulation to keep it cool, the engine would now get its air from behind the parking/headlight witch should be cooler than the fender that gets it air from the engine bay. You might have to do some other baffle work around the front passenger side of the engine bay to keep hot air out

If you are willing to cut up the fender with lovers that is a solid solution,

 

[Dusty]

just leave the fender off. that way you get cold air and you didn't have to destruy anything. I seriously think cutting holes in hood is a good idea. I'm sure the snorkle really helps with the cool air issue but I still think the oe air filter assembly, as good a cleaner as it is, surely adds plenty of heat to the intake charge regardless of snorkle use or not. There must be a better place to put the filter than over the exhaust manifold.

 

[PHAEDRUS]

Yeah,

Get a 3FE and then the exhaust is on the drivers side and the air is on the passengers side.
Just kidding, the fender loover sounds fine and all but hwo will it keep up in the rain??

Dave

 

[DTAYLOR]

The old style hood and fender "stamped" luvers will accomplish a nice addition of fresh air for the engine. Most old time hot rodders I know say they were first used for more fresh air, then later for astetics.

I have often thought about doing the same thing to my 80, all along the right fender at and forward of the inner fender intake airbox. Mapping is another issue that would need to be addressed, since the airflow meter is controled by the ECU. (IMO)

 

[Rainy Day FZJ]

You don't have to worry about mapping, th ECU adjust automatically. The turbo'd and supercharged motors do ok with the stock peramiters in computer and they are at 5-7 PSI. Way more air flow than a stock engine.

 

[LandCrusher'70]

Very intriguing thread. I’m interested in the result(s) of this discussion. I like the idea of a cold air intake, but I’m not sold on the looks of a snorkel either. What if the ductwork, air cleaner housing , inside of the fender and PS of engine compartment were just insulated and intake redirected for fresher air. All the insulation (especially around the tunacan) would look fugly, but it would be cooler.
I used insulated aluminum tape around the A/C lines near the exhaust manifold. I believe that made a difference w/ the A/C.

 

[RCFloyd]

Raventia,

Thanks a BUNCH for the picture (it's worth 1000 words!). The plastic parts inside of the fender sure are a curious looking concotion, aren't they? Seems that they 'could' have done something different there while they were at it, to have it more directional for added cold air.

Well, I'm getting more encouragement to louver my fender from all of your imput thus far.

I also had been thinking that insulating the existing intake parts would be worthwhile; seems that I may as well do the AC lines while I'm at it. Who cares if it looks a little funky; I mean, when the fashion police show up, I can refuse entry, right? ;p

Rob

 

[fzj80kidpen]

Interesting to see this as I was removing my fender flares last night and had to remove all that plastic air intake, conterintuitive stuff. My thoughts were - what the hell is this going backwards. It comes out easy enough, 2 bolts for the back part and one for the front part. You have to turn it around to get the back out. The benz is interesting. Does the louver have a backing plate to prevent dust/crime/water etc from collecting inside the fender. My bet is that it does. Sort of like a scoop with the opening towards the front. Last thing you want is a bunch of crap collecting in the fender and leading to cruiser cancer (rust). Aside from forced induction I do not think that the 80's are starved for air. But hey, cut away, I would love to see it work.

 

[RCFloyd]

RavenTai,

One more thought that I'd forgot to mention regarding your idea on fender/intake mod; when I was poking around my fender/grill area trying to access where the air was actually coming from that feeds the intake, it looked very restrictive to me, inthat, with the help of darkness and a flashlight, I could only see very few 'gabs' that allowed passage of air (although I didn't remove the headlamps to see things more clearly..).

In your picture it 'looks' as if the area just behing the parking/side marker is quite open to the grill area. Is this so? I mean, it must be if you would go to the trouble of taking the fender off and fabbing your new & improved outer fresh air intake.

I'd really like to get some confirmation on this, as I believe I'd need to remove the fender for my louver mod anyway, and IF I could accomplish the same thing w/o doing sheetmetal work, well that would then seem to be the way to go.

Any more insights on this out there?

Robert

 

[RCFloyd]

fzj80kidpen,

I've never been inside of the Benz' fender well to know what's back there. I could call a dealer and find out though. If I proceed with this, I will call.

At any rate, directly below the proposed site of the future louver, between the outer & inner fender is an opening/gap that would allow easy regress (IMHO) of water and small debris that may enter the louvered area.

Robert

 

[RCFloyd]

By the way guys, is it a very big project to remove the that fender?

Rob

 

[RavenTai]

yes pics are handy, from what I can tell I think the main idea of the stock intake on the 80 was to try to reject water and dirt, you can see here a how a direct exterior cold air intake would be a problem.

even though there was water driven up on top of the hood It loos like water that got into the fender would have drained to below the level of the intake as it is wide open to the door hinge cavity and to below behind the mud flap, leaving a pocket of breathable air where the intake is, same with sand and larger dirt particles they woudl be at the bottom of the fender. these 80's are made with off road in mind in all parts,

neither my cold air inlet idea from above nor fender loovers like those on the MB would do well in these situations, but I dont do stuff like that so it would be OK for my 80, not for everyone though. both should be able to handle rain and watter spray just fine.

pic courtesy of jklubens from this thread

https://forum.ih8mud.com/showthread.php?t=83494


Another

nickw from this thread

https://forum.ih8mud.com/showthread.php?t=88319

ZA-CRUISER https://forum.ih8mud.com/showthread.php?t=57788

 

[fzj80kidpen]

Holy bow wave action

 

[RavenTai]

fzj80kidpen, it is not that the 80 is starved for air just that the stock location gets mostly hot air from the engine bay, cooler air has its advantages in detonation and power output. There is a temp sensor in the MAF meter that is available vie OBDII software, snorkel owners have noted large drops intake air temp, insulating the air box could help lower it further also, somebody would have to do a before after test to confirm how much though.

RCFloyd, the front of the fender is open enough for use as a cold air intake, you can get a look at it by removing the parking light, pull one screw above the headlight under the hood and pull foreward, the engine does not seam to get it air from there though it seams to get the air through the many holes in the inner fender, the largest being the one behind the intake where the antenna motor is, you can see part of it in the pic above.

Expanding on something Tools brought up in another thread A baffle here might also prevent recirculation of engine fan air, I do not know that this actually happens but I could see at low speeds air being blown by the engine fan out into the fender and then traveling foreword out the fender to behind the headlights and back through the AC condenser and radiator, the baffle would stop this also, I would think that under speed ram air from the grill should take over and permeates to all these cavities. Could also account for part of the off idle pinging many get at lights on hot days that goes away as the speed increases.

Removing the fender is not a short task but not too bad either, my experience was with a partially mangled truck so it might be different, you take off the wiper arms and then the cowl, a row of bolts along the top, a few at the front under the headlights, a few at the back down near the running boards/ mud flaps, then a row in the wheel well, not sure if you have to take off the flare or not as the on this truck was already gone, there si some sealant/undercoating along the joint in the wheel well that needs to be cut, for a complete job it should be restored on installation,

 

[RCFloyd]

Great pictures.. Again!

If the current air intake IS getting most of it's air from the openings on the inner fender, then I'm in trouble as I've used duct tape to seal them all off!! I suspected as much just contemplating the set-up.

Those pictures of the 80's at the water parks were indeed very revealing, and I'm much more apt to give Toyota their due respect in the design of that do-hicky inside of the wheel well at this point. In fact, I'm even liking the snorkel more!

Somehow, with either of my current leanings (Raventai's/Louvers), there would need to be a way to funnel/direct any amount of water out of the inlet before it reached the Tuna Can.

I would think that a series of 3/8 inch holes would do the trick. By drilling about 20 holes up along side of the bottom of the ducting, the water would be allowed to shed itself out the bottom of the fender. I wouldn't think that this would compromise the cold air/hot air mixture much.

What are your thoughts?

Rob

 

[LX_TREME]

Snorkel

 

[RavenTai]

Great pictures.. Again!

If the current air intake IS getting most of it's air from the openings on the inner fender, then I'm in trouble as I've used duct tape to seal them all off!! I suspected as much just contemplating the set-up.

Those pictures of the 80's at the water parks were indeed very revealing, and I'm much more apt to give Toyota their due respect in the design of that do-hicky inside of the wheel well at this point. In fact, I'm even liking the snorkel more!

Somehow, with either of my current leanings (Raventai's/Louvers), there would need to be a way to funnel/direct any amount of water out of the inlet before it reached the Tuna Can.

I would think that a series of 3/8 inch holes would do the trick. By drilling about 20 holes up along side of the bottom of the ducting, the water would be allowed to shed itself out the bottom of the fender. I wouldn't think that this would compromise the cold air/hot air mixture much.

What are your thoughts?

Rob

Do you want to be able to cross any semi deep water? If so a snorkel is the way to go, some 3/8" holes are not going to cut it when the inlet in immersed in rushing water, for rain and splash & spray though that should be more than enough.

The air filter housing is designed to send small amounts of water straight to the tuna can and then drain out past the rubber check flap, so maybe the holes are not needed, or maybe just one at a low spot near a bend where the water will hit the sides.

If my math is right 20 x 3/8" holes is 2.2 square inches, a significant amount of hot air inlet.