Rational thoughts and input on decision, please! (3 Viewers)

[TeCKis300]

Those numbers loo

Went to a certified scale today. I got there with 10 minutes left before they closed so I was rushing and probably missed a few measurements. I had gone to this scale a few months ago to weigh the LC with me and a full tank of gas in it (6,260 lbs.).

Scale numbers below - LC with me in it and about 7/8ths of a tank of gas; trailer with full fresh water and mostly ready to go camping, minus clothes and food, hooked up to LC with 1200 lb. Equal-izer WD hitch engaged:

Front axles of LC on scale = 2820 lbs.
Both axles of LC on scale = 7380 lbs.

All 4 axles on scale (GCWR) = 13,560 lbs.

Trailer axles on scale while hooked up to LC = 6,200 lbs.
Trailer unhooked and alone on scale = 7,160 lbs.

If I'm understanding this correctly, 960 lbs. get transferred to the LC when hooked up (7,160 - 6,200).

However, the difference in LC weight between weighed empty and hooked up is 1,120 lbs. (7380 - 6260), and that's not accounting for the difference in fuel load. That's closer to the 1,200 lb. reading I got from the Sherline tongue scale.

It also appears that the wdh is not distributing much of the weight to the front axle of the LC, overloading the rear axle by 260 lbs. (7380 - 2820 = 4560) while leaving 775 lbs. available on the front axle.

These numbers just don't work with the LC:

GVWR = 7,385 lbs.
Max Tow = 8,500 lbs.
Max Tongue = 850 lbs.
GCWR = 15,885 lbs.
GAWR (front) = 3,595 lbs.
GAWR (rear) = 4,300 lbs.

I'm starting to think the LC experiment is over. These weights don't even take into account my family, which is another 380 lbs. and growing.

Those numbers tell me that you're completely within the capabilities of a stock LC. Even with the tongue as heavy as it now is.

But it also says as you've pointed out, that the WD setup is way off. Need more tension.

With it correct, it'll do a few things.
1) translate more weight to the front axle
2) translate weight off the rear axle
3) most importantly, it'll transfer tongue weight back to the trailer axles. Improving the GVCR margins you have

And this all will transform the handling of the vehicle into a confident rig.

This isn't even considering the real GVCR increases that can be had with simple suspension upgrades alone.

 

[5ForFighting]

Well, it’s a 1200 lb Equl-izer 4-point hitch.

The GVWR is what it is.

 

[GordJ]

Always good to operate with data. I would hazard an opinion that most guys that tow, don't have much idea about what their actual tongue weights or even actual trailer weights might be. Now you do, so you can make a more informed decision. I personally wouldn't tow 7160lbs very far with a LC rated at 8500lbs. I'd prefer the margin of a tow vehicle rated at 11k, like the newer half tons and on up. Moving something around the block or down to the storage yard is one thing. Cross country with hill's and valleys, etc is another. I am sure a lot of guys do it and do it successfully, just not for me.

My opinion only, YMMV, etc

Don't take this the wrong way because it is not a criticism.
I find the different opinions on these boards fascinating. You say that you wouldn't tow that weigh at that rating and I would say that Toyota would not rate the truck any where close to capacity. We both believe that we are right but we are miles apart in our thought processes. I work with equipment that has a 5/1 safety factor when supporting men and I suspect Toyota has a similar ratio with their truck. More likely a lawyer number than an engineer.
You believe that the rated capacity is past the max that can be towed safely. Obviously you are more correct than I but I am pretty sure I'm not going to change my mind and I am guessing that you probably won't change yours either. We all have read about someones mod and said "who would ever do that?" and most of us have probably had people say that about one of our mods too. Really, all that trouble for led's?
I read linuxgod's post and his attention to detail is so far away from my own haphazard methods you would wonder how we ended up on the same planet let alone the same forum. Again, not a criticism, just an observation on the differences.
5forfighting (go Ducks? or Sharks?) is being very responsible finding out everything relevant before towing and I just hooked up and drove away. Not too smart but it makes my point about the differences in our makeup.

 

[tominboise]

Don't take this the wrong way because it is not a criticism.
I find the different opinions on these boards fascinating. You say that you wouldn't tow that weigh at that rating and I would say that Toyota would not rate the truck any where close to capacity. We both believe that we are right but we are miles apart in our thought processes. I work with equipment that has a 5/1 safety factor when supporting men and I suspect Toyota has a similar ratio with their truck. More likely a lawyer number than an engineer.
You believe that the rated capacity is past the max that can be towed safely. Obviously you are more correct than I but I am pretty sure I'm not going to change my mind and I am guessing that you probably won't change yours either. We all have read about someones mod and said "who would ever do that?" and most of us have probably had people say that about one of our mods too. Really, all that trouble for led's?
I read linuxgod's post and his attention to detail is so far away from my own haphazard methods you would wonder how we ended up on the same planet let alone the same forum. Again, not a criticism, just an observation on the differences.
5forfighting (go Ducks? or Sharks?) is being very responsible finding out everything relevant before towing and I just hooked up and drove away. Not too smart but it makes my point about the differences in our makeup.

Not taken as a criticism at all. You are indeed correct that one of the interesting things about the world in general and enthusiast forums in particular is the diverse experience base and hence bias in decision making. I agree 100% with your comments regarding mods - I find that the older I get, the fewer mods I do and I end up undoing the other guys mods most of the time. But that's the way we are programmed. All those "old guys" were just fuddy duddies, until I became one. Now it's just the really, really old guys who are fuddy duddies.....

My comment regarding most people not knowing what their tow weight / tongue weight actuals might be applies in large part to people outside these types of forums - the guys on here are at least slightly more in tune with their machinery.....

 

[M1911]

Well, if you read the interwebs, you would know that the only safe way to tow a 5,000 lb trailer is with an F-350 crew cab duelly long bed...

There is no kill like overkill.

 

[coleAK]

Talking about my experience where I mentioned the limitations of towing with my LX. I’ll also mention there has never been a time pulling my rig I felt like I needed more truck. I think a lot of it comes down to comfort level and what you want to do.

I have a buddy up here that is an extremely avid mountain biker his expectations towing is that he can make similar time as he would not towing. He does hot laps to Whitehorse (Yukon, Canada) 12 hour drive Friday then back here on Sunday. Also does a Few trips a summer to Whistler at just over 2000 miles and wants to run it at 70+mph. He pulls a toy hauler camper that is similar in size to mine but uses a 3/4 ton diesel to pull it. He also only rarely uses his camper for other than those locations so dosnt do shorter trips. Also when he gets where he is going dosnt use the truck much. So for his use and expectations a LC would not be an acceptable tow vehicle.

 

[coleAK]

Another thing that hasn’t been mentioned but I’ll toss it out there since a lot of people read our info and don’t join up ( as I did for a few years).

A electronic break controller that is properly set up is a must. Also I’m partial to one that has a manual break activation. I have had to use the manual break function a few times over the years. One time I particularly remember was my anti sway bar broke and I had to tow home with out it. It ended up that day I had 30-40 mpg tail/cross winds. at one point the trailer tried to get ahead of me and tapping the trailer breaks straightened it all out.

 

[5ForFighting]

I'm waiting for a pricing email from the US distributor for this kit:

Lovells Suspension - For The Ride of Your Life - Company Profile - Products: GVM Upgrades - Toyota Landcruiser 200 Series

Lovells Suspension - For The Ride of Your Life - Company Profile - Products:GVM Upgrades

It increases the paylod of the LC by 500 kg (1,102 lbs.) and is certified by the Australian version of DOT. It is not certified by US DOT but would put me at ease.

For those in the know, is there a cheaper way to get the same result? I'm assuming this kit will be $$$ since they don't stock it here. The US rep made it clear that I'd be using it at my discretion. He said he'd price it for me and let me know.

I might be more comfortable going over the numbers slightly by doing something like this and doing the 4.88s.

I also got some good hitch adjustment advice from TeCKis300 which I will look into the next time I can get to the trailer (it's in storage).

 

[5ForFighting]

After watching this video, airbags are out:

 

[ckkone]

I'm waiting for a pricing email from the US distributor for this kit:

Lovells Suspension - For The Ride of Your Life - Company Profile - Products: GVM Upgrades - Toyota Landcruiser 200 Series

Lovells Suspension - For The Ride of Your Life - Company Profile - Products:GVM Upgrades

It increases the paylod of the LC by 500 kg (1,102 lbs.) and is certified by the Australian version of DOT. It is not certified by US DOT but would put me at ease.

Any spring heavier than OEM with an appropriately rated shock is going to increase your vehicles GVM. Since we don't have rules here about GVM upgrades it would be much easier for you to just upgrade your suspension to Tough Dog or OME.

 

[GordJ]

Just in case nobody has mentioned it yet, GREAT LOOKING TRAILER!!!

 

[5ForFighting]

Thanks! It’s so perfect for how/where we camp. Honestly, it’s the only thing that would make me consider getting rid of the LC.

 

[coleAK]

Really nice trailer! We love our outdoor RV, my wife wants to upgrade to a Black Stone when the kids leave the nest.

 

[GordJ]

After watching this video, airbags are out:

Remember that they didn't show you the airbags with the WDH in use. I use airbags and the WDH to bring the LC up to level.
On another note, if you spike the brakes with the WDH in use it lifts the back of the tow vehicle and that can cause instability too. I have felt the lift and it is significant. The same weight transfer to the front axle takes the weight off the rear although as the back end comes up the bars are relaxed but not before the lift is initiated and the geometry works against you. And the picnic plate rotors or pie plate drums on the trailers aren't as effective as the Toyotas.

 

[TeCKis300]

To Gordj's point, no need to fear air bags. All the video shows is that one should not be used in lieu of the other. They really address separate concerns. And can work great if used together.

When used together, it's super important to set them up in the right manner. Most weight distribution mechanisms are sensitive to the ride height at which it is setup. So to raise the vehicle rear end (via more air in bags), will have the effect of reducing weight distribution tension. Proper procedure is to set the desired airbag pressure first, then finalize the weight distribution tension at the final desired air pressure. It may take a few iterations to set it right, but basically, set weight distribution last. Don't change the airbag air pressure, without revisiting WD tension.

In regards to Levells, I agree with ckkone. Since there's no formal recognition of the certification, just follow their template to increase capacities. Which pretty much is any aftermarket suspension that increases spring rate. We know the rest of the LC structure and axles is up to the task.

 

[TeCKis300]

Remember that they didn't show you the airbags with the WDH in use. I use airbags and the WDH to bring the LC up to level.
On another note, if you spike the brakes with the WDH in use it lifts the back of the tow vehicle and that can cause instability too. I have felt the lift and it is significant. The same weight transfer to the front axle takes the weight off the rear although as the back end comes up the bars are relaxed but not before the lift is initiated and the geometry works against you. And the picnic plate rotors or pie plate drums on the trailers aren't as effective as the Toyotas.

My thought on bags. Personally, I would use minimal pressure in them. Idea is to have them augment rear spring rate. To better control the towing load from larger suspension motions and deflection due to the load. So the suspension stays more composed and stable. I would not necessarily use them to return vehicle ride height to unladen ride height. Nor use them as the primary method of leveling the rig. Leveling the rig should be predominantly done via the WD bars, as that's how you know there's enough weight transferred forward.

Relying too much on bags will cause the effective rear axle spring rate to be significantly higher than the fronts. In terms of handling balance, this would not be ideal. Also, by relying more on bags vs WD tension, the front end won't see enough load transferred to them for stability, but also suspension pre-load, to balance front to rear rates and load.

I believe if you take some air out of the bags, and dial up the WD a notch, that you will have better emergency braking stability when you jump on the brakes.

Somewhat unrelated but cool vid I saw awhile back -

 

[linuxgod]

Any spring heavier than OEM with an appropriately rated shock is going to increase your vehicles GVM. Since we don't have rules here about GVM upgrades it would be much easier for you to just upgrade your suspension to Tough Dog or OME.

Anyone know what the spring rates are for the Lovell's GVM upgrade? That would largely answer the question about what other aftermarket suspensions would provide similar results.

Obviously the amount of lift will change the center of gravity (IIRC the Lovell's GVM is <1" of lift).

 

[ckkone]

Anyone know what the spring rates are for the Lovell's GVM upgrade? That would largely answer the question about what other aftermarket suspensions would provide similar results.

Obviously the amount of lift will change the center of gravity (IIRC the Lovell's GVM is <1" of lift).

Not exactly what you are looking for but this guy added Tough Dog 40mm adjustable shocks with heavy front and light rear springs. He then had his LC200 tested and the GVM legally increased from 3300kg to 3800kg.

LandCruiser 200 - Suspension kit - Project 200
LandCruiser 200 GVM Upgrade - Project 200

So its safe to assume a similar Tough Dog kit will increase GVM by 500kg (1,100 lbs).

 

[GordJ]

My thought on bags. Personally, I would use minimal pressure in them. Idea is to have them augment rear spring rate. To better control the towing load from larger suspension motions and deflection due to the load. So the suspension stays more composed and stable. I would not necessarily use them to return vehicle ride height to unladen ride height. Nor use them as the primary method of leveling the rig. Leveling the rig should be predominantly done via the WD bars, as that's how you know there's enough weight transferred forward.

Relying too much on bags will cause the effective rear axle spring rate to be significantly higher than the fronts. In terms of handling balance, this would not be ideal. Also, by relying more on bags vs WD tension, the front end won't see enough load transferred to them for stability, but also suspension pre-load, to balance front to rear rates and load.

I believe if you take some air out of the bags, and dial up the WD a notch, that you will have better emergency braking stability when you jump on the brakes.

Somewhat unrelated but cool vid I saw awhile back -

You keep bringing up more questions than answers! The stopping distance is very impressive, and so is the bravery to do it side by side on a normal road. But I don't understand how the tow truck doesn't have any rear end lift or front end dive? The tow truck is rocksteady and level throughout. But it is impressive that they stop so well.

 

[coleAK]

You keep bringing up more questions than answers! The stopping distance is very impressive, and so is the bravery to do it side by side on a normal road. But I don't understand how the tow truck doesn't have any rear end lift or front end dive? The tow truck is rocksteady and level throughout. But it is impressive that they stop so well.

I’m guessing that the weight on the back end, WD hitch, and trailer breaks greatly effected the tow vehicle dynamics. Just a theory, for the one towing had significant weight over the back. And also the force of the trailer acting against the tow vehicle in the opposit direction essentially pulling it straight back and depending on the type of WD hitch the leveling effect of that as well.